Welcome to the Codemasters Forums! Be sure to check the FAQ and Forum Rules before you get started.

new co-driver system ? more precision in notes ?( idea for new dirt )

gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
hello codemasters

can you add a new co-driver for players with experience in the next dirt 
I give you an example

 English
 normal co driver:
left 5 right 6 left 1 right 3 
 listen "left five  right six left one right three" ( is long for me )

new co driver
L5 R6 L1 R3
 listen "L five R six Lone R three " 

french
normal co driver
gauche 1 droite 2droite 3 gauche 5
listen "gauche un droite deux  droite trois gauche cinq "

new co driver
G1 D2 D3 G5
listen " G un D deux D trois G cinq "        ( i m french and  watch the time to win in listening )

because sometimes the info is not going fast enough to say (for info my co-pilot is between "anticipated" and "very early" almost 2 bends in advance.
( keep the system normal for beginners )

more details in the notes for the turns :



in Spain the left 5 right 5 is tighter and slower. whereas the straight line 5 before starting in a straight line is wider and faster example:
the left 5 right 5 should be left 5 (-) right 5 (gold L5 (-) R5) and the right 5 should be right 5 (+) (or D5 +) the short pins are not announced the long pins yes but not When the co-pilot says "left pin" I do not know if it's a normal pin or if it's a short pin and I have to put a handbrake

in the wales the left 1 and right 1 must be more precise with + and - and there is the left 4 (or right 4) before the turn 90 degrees which should be a 3 (+) or a 4 (-)

in Sweden there is a road and the co-pilot says "place you on the left" but in reality it is left 6(-)

for info I play in view pilot cokpit and when it is the big fog and heavy rain we do not see and I am obliged to listen to the notes that is why it needs more accurate notes if codemaster improves the generated tracks system for the next dirt
«13

Comments

  • carpacarpa Member Race Engineer
    I think pacenotes are so personal that each player would like a different system. What is more important is that they're correct, costant (so that all 3s are similar, not as it is right now) and delivered at the right time. I feel like these improvements are needed before introducing a whole new system
    "I race to win, of course. But even before of winning, I race to race. As fast as possible"
    - Gilles Villeneuve
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    In addition to what @carpa has already said, I'd like to say that I find the pacenote system, you propose, to be counter-intuitive and without noticeable or any gains, whatsoever, in pacenote delivery speed. It's counter-intuitive because "R" and "L" are just letters of the alphabet, while "Right" and "Left" are directions. In the context of telling the driver where the road goes next, wouldn't directions be, you know, the best way to relay that information? Regarding pacenote speed, "Right" and "Left" are both one syllable words that take about the same time to enounce than "R" and "L". The time advantage you gain here is negligible to non-existant. The space you save, writing in the roadbook "R" instead of "Right", does not equate to less spoken words.
  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    it depends on the listening of the driver as far as I'm concerned I find that the french co pilot does not go enough on certain sector when the turns is chained, after the British player his does not pose any problems but for example for French or Spanish it's longer. listen to:

    english:
    left right
    french:
    gau-che      droi-te 
    spain :
    iz- quier-da      de-re-cha 

    afterwards we must not forget that the player will have the choice of normal or shorter notes. This is only an idea but it could be nice



  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    With Spanish, you do have more syllables so I can understand your speed point there. Still, Spanish co-drivers simply speak faster. Saying "derecha" is more descriptive than just saying "D". In the end, co-driver notes vary with driver preference. I, personally, wouldn't like your style of pacenotes and I think they'd actually be detrimental to pros. That being said, to each his own.
  • FedemaisonnaveFedemaisonnave Member, Drivers Petrol Head
    edited May 9
    Any pro driver/codriver dont use your system mate, it is much easier and clear to listen Left or Right than L or R, notes just need to be more accurate, but your stage makes it a bit more tricky to get them perfect also affecting the timing, which is crucial
  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    edited May 11
    for your information the best french pilots sacrifice the number of the angle of the turn using terms example:
    1
    french  :  gauche droite a fond   translate english  left right whole-heartedly
    dirt system C.Mcrae : gauche 6 droite 6     english left 6 right 6
    2
    french : droite moins moins  english  right less less (less. it's the down the gear ratio example less less = get off 2 speed
    dirt system droite 3 english    right 3 

    3the best lol 
    french : gauche équerre      english  :  left square
    dirt system: gauche quatre-vingt-dix  degrés    english : left ninety degrees ( I do not know if this is the right phrase do not hesitate to correct me)

    the new system that I propose is just an improvement of the system of collin mcrae it does not change anything its method it shortens the information which can help the pilots put the announcement of the co-pilot 1 advance turns instead to put 2 turns in advance which improves the taking of information to the ear by the player .

    watch the first 2 in the wrc standings speak french (neuville is belgian and he uses french) and the first english is kris meeke in 6th place. proof that the collin system is exceed and needs refreshing

    to answer a comment I think it could not help a lot of player but you know the cokpit view is not much use by the player in dirt yet it is there and I use it and to finish I do not see the rally as a race but I see it as a code because each error can be expensive and have a fast information and at the right time is like a key to unlock a door. if the key is a little too short or a bit too long it will be difficult to open the door

    I will put you 2 example

  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    ogier 
    1 the numbers to use are for distances

    2 l angle of turns are (mid long, a fond, short, no rope, mid rope )
                                FR( mi long , whole-heartdly , court , pas corde, mi corde )

    3 the small jump are announce "leap" and the big jump announce "sky" 
                                                       "bond"                                            "ciel"
    4the braking is announced by ingrassia" big brake on left" 
                                                             " gros frein sur gauche "



  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    kris meeke
    the co-pilot does not use a number from 1 to 4 for turns he says minus, low,short , and slow but he uses 5, 5 +, 6,6 +


  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    gk9147 said:
    kris meeke
    the co-pilot does not use a number from 1 to 4 for turns he says minus, low,short , and slow but he uses 5, 5 +, 6,6 +
    And below is an onboard with Paul Nagle using those numbers you say he doesn't. Curiously, you picked Rally Finland, which is a very fast event with sweeping, fast corners, hence you don't hear lower numbers being called out. Have a listen of how it goes in Corsica, the rally of 10000 turns:



    As for Ogier, Julien Ingrassia is actually being more complicated with his notes. It's a system identical to Loeb. Instead of speed, they want detail. They not only call out the distance between corners, but also the exact angle of the corner, in degrees, where the apex is located and even where to place the car on the exit. Look at this to understand how much Ogier must turn to make the corner:


    Note: when calling distance to a corner, Ingrassia adds "metres" to differenciate from corner sharpness.
    Also, "ciel" means crest, because when you go up a crest you see sky. "Bond" is jump, as you said.

    This french system isn't known for speed, so a simple "droite 6" would be better, if that's what you're looking for.
  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell

    i agree with you after i chose the rally the finland rally because it was the first one to show up and the 2 onboard was in the same country what is good with finland it is that its going very fast and it is clear that the system of C mcrae is exceeded. and can work only in short-speed sector and even in this kind of short sector this system is exceed again. Listen french "gauche droite a fond sur equerre" mcrae system "left 6 right6 on square" clearly the system mcrae is completely at the moment of the "left right" you put 2 shot of steering wheel and you go sliding in square while the system mcrae is obliged to put the notes earlier to have these notes to have the same reaction of the pilot. for jumping it is imperative to differentiate listen "bond" it is a leap or small jump to which I could see behind jumping and "ciel" is big jump or blind turns so be careful for you English player a small jump will be "jump" and a big rise on crest or blind turns "over-crest" and big jump "big jump"

    on the other hand I just saw on my just see my previous comments or I talk about the angle of the turns as a scale protractor for ogier but they do not display on google translation it can have translation errors too

    after this was only an example and is not to be considered for "dirt" I remain in the idea of improvements C.Mcrae system. even if the debate is interesting after I think that the French system will be difficult for the player and are not ready. for me there would be no problem to see the game evolve because now I am already 27 years old and I do not expect to be too old or dead to see a complete rally game because I started when I was 6 years old car games and rally games




  • KevMKevM Member Champion
    See if you can make any sense of these notes (yes, he’s speaking English).

    https://youtu.be/BK1uw2NgKuQ
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    edited May 11
    gk9147 said:

    i agree with you after i chose the rally the finland rally because it was the first one to show up and the 2 onboard was in the same country what is good with finland it is that its going very fast and it is clear that the system of C mcrae is exceeded. and can work only in short-speed sector and even in this kind of short sector this system is exceed again. Listen french "gauche droite a fond sur equerre" mcrae system "left 6 right6 on square" clearly the system mcrae is completely at the moment of the "left right" you put 2 shot of steering wheel and you go sliding in square while the system mcrae is obliged to put the notes earlier to have these notes to have the same reaction of the pilot. for jumping it is imperative to differentiate listen "bond" it is a leap or small jump to which I could see behind jumping and "ciel" is big jump or blind turns so be careful for you English player a small jump will be "jump" and a big rise on crest or blind turns "over-crest" and big jump "big jump"

    on the other hand I just saw on my just see my previous comments or I talk about the angle of the turns as a scale protractor for ogier but they do not display on google translation it can have translation errors too

    after this was only an example and is not to be considered for "dirt" I remain in the idea of improvements C.Mcrae system. even if the debate is interesting after I think that the French system will be difficult for the player and are not ready. for me there would be no problem to see the game evolve because now I am already 27 years old and I do not expect to be too old or dead to see a complete rally game because I started when I was 6 years old car games and rally games
    I'm really sorry, but you must improve your grammar and punctuation. I know English not your first language but it's really hard for us to understand what you're trying to say. Your first paragraph is just 3 run-on sentences with low cohesion.

    Anyway, from what I can get, I can agree the French system can be shortened but not without, at least, a number or word to say what kind of corner to expect. Just "droite" and "gauche" are not enough. What kind of "droite"? What kind of "gauche"? Even in flat-out corners, French co-drivers add "a fond", to denote a flat-out corner. Your preference is your preference, but we have to be realistic here and realize most players (I think I speak for most here, when I say this) will need more information than just a general direction, regardless of language. Codemasters will have to make do with what fits best for most people.

    Don't worry about getting too old. I'm sure we'll have something long before your lifespan is through.

    Finally, I'm not French, so I won't say I am the ultimate source in French pacenotes. However, by observation, it does seem like "ciel" is not jump, but just "over crest". Listen to Daniel Elena in the onboard, from 2008, below. Right near the start, a "ciel" is called. The car goes over a crest but no jump occurs. I also suggest watching from 3:30 onwards for call outs that reinforce this idea. Other than that, I think I'll let other French, in the forum, have a say and correct me, if I'm wrong.



  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    I will give you an example and explain step by step and if I can use examples of dirt rally and dirt 4

    1
    french: gauche droite a fond . it means in English left right to the maximum without braking

    2 équerre is a  object which has a 90 degree angle  that is used in schools I put you a link


    so if I tell you in French "gauche droite a fond sur gauche équerre" in English
    it means left right to the maximum without braking on 90 degree turns "

    the collin system mcrae for a french player,spain player , italian player.... (left 6 right 6 on left at 90degree)

    the problem is that 90 degree in France it says (qyatre-vingt-dit degrés) it is too long and even left 6 right 6 is too long too and we have to put the notes much in advance for the notes of Collin Mcrae system

    I give you an example in spain on dirt 4
     right 6 left 6 on right pin this note is too long and yet I put it very early but when I arrive quickly before the pin he tells me "pin". so when I hear right 6 or left 6 I slow down to avoid making me trap. at the risk of wasting time 

    wales dirt 4 same problems

    "right 6 right 4 right 6 right 4 right 6 left 3" and of course on the left 3 I arrive too fast because this note arrives too late however the other notes they were announced in advance so I slow down 1 or 2 turns before to avoid to trap me again

    for me the "crest" or "sky" depends if there are jumps or not. if ingrassia says to ogier "big brake" or \ and "less less" with the angle of the turn is difficult the jump will be difficult but if ingrassia says to ogier "sky" with a very easy angle. and long ogier will attack jump or not jump 

    I have something to say about finland dirt rally
    the co-pilot says too many times "crest" is annoying. the co-pilot should say crest at the first corner on crest after he gives the normal notes example
    annoying co driver in finland on dirt rally:
    left 5 crest, right 6 crest, right 5 crest, right 3 crest
    good co driver in finland dirt rally
    left 5 crest, right 6 right 5 right 3 (it's better for my ears)

    Flat roads:
    for flat roads is not intersting to say but if a road is broken by time or bumpy yes the co-pilot must say it

    I show you the idea of C mcrae note quickly for English, French, Italian, Spanish player




  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    english         

    collin mcrae  /  new / listening 
      left 1               L1        L one
      Left 2             L2        L two 
       Left3             L3        Ltrhee
       Left4            L4          Lfour
       Left5             L5         Lfive
       Left 6           L6         Lsix
        right 1         R1         Rone
       right2            R2        Rtwo
        Right3         R3         Rthree 
        Right 4        R4         Rfour
        Right5         R5         Rfive
        Right6         R6         Rsix 
        90°          R9 or R90  Rnine or Rninety or other(send question for italian for other name
        90°          L9  or L90  Lnine or Lninety or other( send question for italian for other name

    French:
      gauche 1        G1      Gun
       gauche 2       G2       Gdeux
       Gauche 3       G3     Gtrois
        gauche 4       G4     Gquatre
       gauche 5        G5      Gcinq
         gauche6      G6        Gsix
       droite 1         D1        Dun
        Droite 2       D2        Ddeux
        Droite 3       D3         Dtrois
       Droite 4        D4          Dquatre
        Droite5        D5         Dcinq
        Droite 6       D6        Dsix 
         90°          G9orG90   G9 or G équerre or other (send question for french for other name
         90°          R9  or R90  R9 or D équerre or othter( send question for french for other name

    spain : 
    izquierda1           i1          Iuno
    izquierda2           i2          Idos
    izquierda3           i3          Itres
    izquierda4           i4          Icuatro
    izquierda5            i5          Icinco
    izquierda6            i6           Iseis
    derecha1              d1            Duno
    derecha2               d2              Ddos
    derecha3               d3             Dtres
    derecha4               d4              Dcuatro
    derecha5                 d5            Dcinco
    derecha6                d6             Dseis
    90°                         i9               inueve or other( send question for spanish player
    90°                          D9            Dnueve  or other ( send question for spanish player

    italian:
    sinistra1                   S1              Suno
    sinistra2                   S2              Sdue
    sinistra3                   S3              Stre
    sinistra4                   S4               Squattro
    sinistra5                  S5                Scinque
    sinistra6                   S6               Ssei
    destra1                        D1             Duno
    Destra 2                      D2              Ddue
    Destra 3                     D3                Dtre
    destra  4                     D4                Dquattro
    destra  5                    D5                Dcinque
    destra  6                   D6                Dsei
    90°                           G9               Gnove or other   (send question for italian for other name
    90°                            D9               Dnove    or other ( send question for italian for other name

    the idea came because i did the preparation of commmande in my former work now codemaster has the idea and will be able to do it for all the countries on the game
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    edited May 11
    First of all, thank you for putting your idea in a more schematic form, much better.

    Now, here's my opinion on it and bear with me: no, just no. Those are terrible pacenotes, they sound like stuttering gibberish. You may think they're great and more power to you but, I can guarantee you, you are very distinct minority, if not a singularity. Have you actually tried pronouncing what you propose, instead of just looking at it written? If you have and you still think a co-driver, in any language, wouldn't get his tongue twisted getting some of these out, at speed, you are different indeed. That's all I'll say.

    Normally, I like to say that more options is better. However, I don't think this system is worth Codemasters' development time. Pacenotes are already an abbreviation of normal language, into what can be considered a new language. You are trying to abbreviate the abbreviations and creating new, highly counter-intuitive and almost cryptic words.

    This is one of those cases where the famous adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. You're overthinking this in a search for a tiny bit of speed you simply won't find.
  • carpacarpa Member Race Engineer
    gk9147 said:

    I give you an example in spain on dirt 4
     right 6 left 6 on right pin this note is too long and yet I put it very early but when I arrive quickly before the pin he tells me "pin". so when I hear right 6 or left 6 I slow down to avoid making me trap. at the risk of wasting time 

    wales dirt 4 same problems

    "right 6 right 4 right 6 right 4 right 6 left 3" and of course on the left 3 I arrive too fast because this note arrives too late however the other notes they were announced in advance so I slow down 1 or 2 turns before to avoid to trap me again



    I think the problem with these isn't pacenote length but timing. With DiRT 4 tiles system the codriver is hardly ever saying the note at the correct moment and this causes some difficulties when you're trying to push 100%. Codies should work more on the timing, expecially when there is a sequence of fast corners leading into a slow one.

    gk9147 said:

    Italian:
    sinistra1                   S1              Suno
    sinistra2                   S2              Sdue
    sinistra3                   S3              Stre
    sinistra4                   S4               Squattro
    sinistra5                  S5                Scinque
    sinistra6                   S6               Ssei
    destra1                        D1             Duno
    Destra 2                      D2              Ddue
    Destra 3                     D3                Dtre
    destra  4                     D4                Dquattro
    destra  5                    D5                Dcinque
    destra  6                   D6                Dsei
    90°                           G9               Gomito Sinistra
    90°                            D9               Gomito Destra

    I modified your system because I'm Italian, but I have to say this notes, with our pronunciation, would probably create more confusion than they'd fix. For example Left Six is now Sinistra Sei but with these it would be "esse sei" which sounds all similar and creates the problem that in Italian "esse" also means "chicane" and this term is commonly used with this meaning. Or Destra Due which would be pronounced "di due" is quite difficult to say and understand while racing.
    That said, "Gomito destra/sinistra" is actually a better way to describe a 90° corner than the one Codies actually use now. So I recommend they introduce it ;)
    And here in Italy we have a way to say a fond, we say "VAI" which means "go!" and means the corner can be taken at higher speed than you could think with a normal note
    "I race to win, of course. But even before of winning, I race to race. As fast as possible"
    - Gilles Villeneuve
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    edited May 11
    @carpa I have to say, as a portuguese, I'm scared of your left turns. So sinister...

    In fact, how would you guys call out a sinister left turn?
  • FedemaisonnaveFedemaisonnave Member, Drivers Petrol Head
    Lol Flat mate is Flat out(not braking) not that the road isn't rough or bumpy hahaha
  • carpacarpa Member Race Engineer
    @carpa I have to say, as a portuguese, I'm scared of your left turns. So sinister...

    In fact, how would you guys call out a sinister left turn?
    A "curva sinistra sinistra" I guess :D
    "I race to win, of course. But even before of winning, I race to race. As fast as possible"
    - Gilles Villeneuve
  • gk9147gk9147 Member New Car Smell
    Fedemaisonnave  I did not say to brake on a flat road. I said if the old road is broken by the weather or bumpy the co-driver has to announce it. imagine you drive at 250 km / h with hard settings your steering wheel will tremble and you lose control of the car. in these conditions either you slow down or you relax your adjustments before the race. try asseto corsa with hard settings on nurburgring you'll see
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.