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2018 Hungarian Grand Prix

You all dead?

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  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    edited July 28
    Brilliant qualifying session, the Mercedes being 1-2 could make for a really interesting battle at the front tomorrow if Ferrari are indeed the fastest in the race. I just hope it doesn't become an anti-climax where we watch a 70 lap parade. 

    @MBKF1 isn't here is he? Probably why the thread never got made :p 
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  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    I would like to congratulate Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull for being SOOO MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE, so we'll never see something insane like Hulkenberg winning a race in weird ass, treacherous conditions.

    *runs to bookies*
  • MBKF1MBKF1 Member Moderator
    Yeah I'm away on holiday, but the hotel I'm in for the next couple of nights does have ESPN HD, so I'm all set for a 6am start in the morning :p 
    MBKF1 | Community Moderator | Please be aware that I don't do much actual moderating
  • HughesyHughesy Member Champion


                                           
       
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    Is Sainz even being investigated? 

    Too short.
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  • fIsince08fIsince08 Member Moderator
    The best part of the race was Christian Horner's commentary on the Riccardo crash.
    ''I hope he doesn't understeer"
    *Bottas understeers*
    *Silence*
    "F***"

    I am not a Codemasters employee.

    #RIPJules

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  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    edited July 29
    The positives:
    - Lewis Hamilton was faultless. Think he + Mercedes are the coolest combination, which will help them win it all.

    - Pierre Gasly is absolutely scary when everything goes well for him. Legit scary. I thought he was the Driver of the Day, but it should make zero sense for him to be that fast, for such a long stint, on ultrasoft tyres. Gasly wasn't even that much slower than the top-6. I once said that I didn't rate Gasly based on his GP2-season and I was wrong, really **** wrong. Pierre Gasly is the future. Him and Charles Leclerc are two of the most exciting talents in the sport and it could be legendary if everything goes well.

    The negatives:
    - Valtteri Bottas was pathetic today. Absolutely pathetic. Vettel had completely passed him, yet he went braindead and only failed in ruining Vettel's race through sheer luck. Not only that, with a broken front wing, he then nearly killed Ricciardo's race in the most obvious turn of events. I didn't think Bottas would've been stupid enough to try and outbreak Ricciardo when he's on the outside, because he would've never made that corner and that's exactly what happened. If one of the two couldn't finish the race, I would've said it was black flag worthy. 10 seconds seems way too lenient for me.

    - Ferrari are idiots. Vettel was 25 seconds ahead of Bottas, approached traffic, lost 5 seconds and then they pitted him before he could've won that time back. Bring Vettel in before that happened, he comes out ahead of Bottas and maybe, just maybe, he could've challenged Hamilton. Also, Vettel is kind of a choker. I don't think he's as cool or as consistent as Hamilton, which is funny, Hamilton tends to freak out on the radio. But Vettel is the one who drops in consistency when it's clutch time. Anyway, Ferrari were idiots. That's what's going to cost them. Genuinely stupid strategic decisions.
    - Renault. Sucks.
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    Jiggy said:
    The positives:
    - Lewis Hamilton was faultless. Think he + Mercedes are the coolest combination, which will help them win it all.

    - Pierre Gasly is absolutely scary when everything goes well for him. Legit scary. I thought he was the Driver of the Day, but it should make zero sense for him to be that fast, for such a long stint, on ultrasoft tyres. Gasly wasn't even that much slower than the top-6. I once said that I didn't rate Gasly based on his GP2-season and I was wrong, really **** wrong. Pierre Gasly is the future. Him and Charles Leclerc are two of the most exciting talents in the sport and it could be legendary if everything goes well.

    The negatives:
    - Valtteri Bottas was pathetic today. Absolutely pathetic. Vettel had completely passed him, yet he went braindead and only failed in ruining Vettel's race through sheer luck. Not only that, with a broken front wing, he then nearly killed Ricciardo's race in the most obvious turn of events. I didn't think Bottas would've been stupid enough to try and outbreak Ricciardo when he's on the outside, because he would've never made that corner and that's exactly what happened. If one of the two couldn't finish the race, I would've said it was black flag worthy. 10 seconds seems way too lenient for me.

    - Ferrari are idiots. Vettel was 25 seconds ahead of Bottas, approached traffic, lost 5 seconds and then they pitted him before he could've won that time back. Bring Vettel in before that happened, he comes out ahead of Bottas and maybe, just maybe, he could've challenged Hamilton. Also, Vettel is kind of a choker. I don't think he's as cool or as consistent as Hamilton, which is funny, Hamilton tends to freak out on the radio. But Vettel is the one who drops in consistency when it's clutch time. Anyway, Ferrari were idiots. That's what's going to cost them. Genuinely stupid strategic decisions.
    - Renault. Sucks.
    How did you reach that conclusion after the race today? Vettel did a superb job to pull out 25 seconds to Bottas, who was on fresher tyres, and got screwed by Sainz - who hasn't even been penalised because the FIA are an absolute mess. Hamilton is the more consistent of the two this season, but Vettel is far from a choker.

    Imagine it, you block Sainz in qualifying - an offence that doesn't even affect Sainz anyway and drop grid spots, and then Sainz blocks you for half a lap costing you a shot at 1st place and gets nothing. What is even going on here? I don't imagine for one moment that Vettel could have overtaken Hamilton, but that's beside the point.
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  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    Not based on this race alone, but looking at it, he couldn't get past Bottas on much better tyres until late in the race, kept having small lock-ups when chasing Hamilton or Bottas. That's fresh off the Germany-thing which is inexcusable.
    Also Sainz really can't be blamed for the situation because Vettel didn't lose 6 seconds behind Sainz, he lost that behind Sainz + a bunch of other cars because there was an entire pack of cars to lap. All in together little things. Problem is, Hamilton doesn't do that, meanwhile, Ferrari are screwing up too, so the little things is the difference. Think this is the 3rd, 4th time this season Ferrari had the much stronger package, only for Hamilton to still win, I think.
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    edited July 30
    He couldn't overtake Bottas because it's literally impossible to pass cars unless you have a large enough advantage. Hamilton had the same issue last season so I don't understand how you've come to this conclusion.

    And it was Sainz's fault, there hadn't been any issues until he came up to Sainz who refused to let him pass until far too late. Can't even argue that Sainz would have lost too much time, because he lost loads when he eventually did let him past.

    Edit: From what I heard he had 13 seconds to Hamilton before Sainz, and 9 after. Plus 2 seconds in the pits.

    Hamilton mainly won today because it rained yesterday which favoured him and the Mercedes and a little because his team mate was able to get second in qualifying and hold position after t1. But as I said, passing was impossible so it's really a case of getting pole and you've won. Not much Ferrari could really do, the real issue is the design of the cars and/or the horrible track.
    Post edited by AMS97KRR on
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  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    edited July 30
    Seeing how Kimi Raikkonen was over 2 seconds a lap faster and closed a 17 second gap like it was nothing, I'd say the advantage was great enough to expect Vettel, on fresh ultras, to overtake Bottas, who was on old softs. He didn't had a proper attempt at it. I'd be willing to bet my life over it that, had it been Ricciardo or Verstappen in that car, they would've found a way past. Vettel already had a major opportunity the first lap after his stop, but he bottled that by moving to the outside awkwardly when a Ricciardo-esque overtake was necessary. A good overtaker would've pounced on that. Vettel was too cautious and then lost his window when a true WDC makes the most out of moments like that.

    And about the Sainz-thing, I don't know what you've heard, but it's not correct.

    Vettel had 14.5 seconds on Hamilton and 23 seconds on Bottas when he approached Hulkenberg. The train of Hulkenberg, Hartley, Grosjean, Sainz and Ocon were all within two seconds of eachother, with the smallest gap being between Ocon and Sainz.

    After passing Hulkenberg, Hartley and Grosjean, Vettel approached Sainz in lap 35. Vettel's gap to Hamilton had already decreased to 13 seconds, but his gap to Bottas had increased to 25 seconds. Hamilton was in a traffic free 15 second gap between Hulkenberg and Perez, while Bottas had to pass the train of Stroll, Ericsson and Sirotkin. So that's Hamilton winning almost 4 seconds on Bottas, who had to deal heavy traffic and gaining 1.5 seconds on Vettel, who was approaching heavy traffic. Both Hamilton and Bottas had a clear track, Vettel was not. Not by a long shot.

    A lap later, in lap 36, Sainz let Vettel through, Vettel had 11 seconds on Hamilton, 23.5 on Bottas. Gap between Hamilton and Bottas remains the same, both with a clear track. Vettel losing 1.5 seconds on Bottas, 2 seconds to Hamilton behind Sainz.

    That still leaves Ocon. Vettel actually had trouble getting to Ocon and didn't pass him until the main straight in lap 38. That's where it went down to 9. After that, the gap with Hamilton was 9 seconds, the gap with Bottas was 21.3 seconds. So he lost 2 seconds to Bottas and Hamilton behind Ocon. That's when Hamilton started approaching the group from Ocon to Hulkenberg. The first two traffic free laps Vettel had, he won a second on Hamilton. However, Bottas was putting in banker laps and won another second on Vettel and two on Hamilton, who was starting to deal with traffic himself.

    For Vettel, this could allow him to win the seconds back on Hamilton, had he stayed out. But he couldn't equal Bottas' laps and pitted two laps after passing Ocon to prevent they couldn't cover Bottas with a pitstop anymore. But it was too late. The average pitstop time was 21 seconds. Bottas was 20.3 seconds behind Vettel.

    You cannot tell me that Ferrari didn't massively screw up here. They either;
    • A: Knew that Vettel needed to pit soon and therefore should've anticipated the time lost behind 5 lapped cars and the time it would take to lap them by pitting him before he hit traffic, or
    • B: Didn't expect Vettel's tires to go down so severely while trying to lap 5 cars, which is a huge oversight, you're supposed to know that, especially when Vettel is on 34 laps old tires to begin with.

    Allowing Vettel to lap 5 cars in a row would only be useful, had he been able to keep pace and able to keep running for at least ten laps after passing Ocon. A botched pitstop didn't help, but they should've never been in that position to begin with.

    And to add to the point, Hamilton, who went after the same 5 guys, saw his gap to Bottas fall back to 7 seconds. It's absolutely silly to shift all the blame to Sainz when it was clear that a train of 5 cars was always going to take a lot of time out of the car trying to lap them. And that's taking into account that Hamilton gained an advantage because that group was way more spread out when he approached them, compared to when Vettel did. Plus Ocon pitted, although I'm not sure if he did before Hamilton got by. The blame is on Ferrari for not handling that situation well. Not Sainz. Not even by a long shot.


    tl;dr: Ferrari bottled it by letting Vettel suffer behind 5 cars, Vettel bottled a crucial moment to overtake Bottas early, Vettel lost more time behind Ocon than behind Sainz and lost a lot of time behind multiple backmarkers, so Sainz deserves zero blame.
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