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VR support in Dirt Rally 2 ?

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  • SkyRexSkyRex Member Petrol Head
    edited September 2018
    I really don't get it... it's just another rendering method. Even a prime example for work to outsource to a company, who does that all the time. The rendering doesn't really change in VR, does it? Instead of a fixed camera, the game now has to render to two cameras, which move around. The position is given by the headset. It should be just a matter of pumping out two images, to two 'monitors', for which you get their position all the time. Put a button for realignment in the game and make a floating main menu, done. And the last bit should really be easy, as CM-menus are made for controller input anyway... I will research a little on SteamVR development and what actual programming is involved for developers, will report back soon. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but from a rendering point I don't see the major implementation time for it.
    EDIT: Valve's OpenVR seems to be a great hit-it-all way of implementing VR-support. Will look into source code tomorow.
    Post edited by SkyRex on
  • TheScotsmanTheScotsman Member New Car Smell
    Well there goes my faith in CM. This is just ridiculous.
  • gloomgloom Member New Car Smell
    Sounds like the whole only 5% use cockpit view so we're not going to implement cockpit view anymore from the grid days. 

    If any community has embraced vr its the sim racing community. It's a shame codemasters are going backwards in that regard when they were one of the first to implement it.

    I hate to sound like a broken record here but I won't be purchasing it until vr support is added. I'm not hating on them, I wish them all the success, but it's not for me without vr anymore. I would've bought f1 had it had vr as well. I regret my purchase of dirt 4 as I only put about 40 hours into it. 
  • KaRallyKaRally Member New Car Smell
    I can even pay $99.99 today for Deluxe Edition with VR support.
    For a long time I did not buy any game without VR even though I have 3x39" monitors. I did not make an exception for F1 2017 and 2018 and I will not make an exception for DR 2.0. I know that for Codemasters, my $180 for 3 games is not much, but people like me are thousands !

  • toxaqtoxaq Member New Car Smell
    I pre-purchased DIRT4 because I wanted to support a company that was making amazing racing games in VR. Seriously, Dirt is the ultimate. However I've never even opened DIRT4 because I just have a single crappy monitor that's only use is configuring things to open in VR. I couldn't get a refund on this unusable game (for me) as I missed the 14 day launch period as Steam didn't notify me. So you've already got one full price out of me for doing nothing, you're not getting another unless you support VR in your future games. I would pay you more for VR. I would pay for more stages to be added to the original Dirt! I have money I want to give you! 
  • nbates66nbates66 Member Wheel Nut
    SkyRex said:
    I really don't get it... it's just another rendering method. Even a prime example for work to outsource to a company, who does that all the time. The rendering doesn't really change in VR, does it? Instead of a fixed camera, the game now has to render to two cameras, which move around. The position is given by the headset. It should be just a matter of pumping out two images, to two 'monitors',
    It's not the same as running on multiple monitors, with multiple monitors your just running an expanded resolution all from a single perspective "camera" with VR you have to render the scene twice, one camera for each eye since your eyes see different viewpoints. It has to be done at a VERY high framerate or it will look terrible/make you sick, in this case 90Hz is usually aimed for, then all this has to be done at high resolutions, in the case of my headset 1400x1400 per eye.
  • juu1iusjuu1ius Member Petrol Head
    Oh no, I was really hoping for VR support :( My set is collecting dust because DR isn't appealing anymore. I have about 1000h and only about 150h on Dirt4, only because one had VR and other doesn't. DR2 could be legend, w/o VR, I doubt it.
  • surtic86surtic86 Member New Car Smell
    #NoVRNoBuy from me ;)

    Really sad about this Decision... Racing Games are the best and easiest Games to Enhance with VR Support. It's not like a EGO Shooter where you need to make the Weapons different and make every Items pikable.... 
  • KawlosGhroomezKawlosGhroomez Member New Car Smell
    Don't really know what to say... I'm another person with a rig set up exclusively for VR only.

    What you need for a successful game is for a thriving, active community - One such as CS1.6 has ran for years and is still hugely popular today for whatever reason people still enjoy it. If you decide to release the game and then implement VR 3-12 months down the line, the community will be a lot less than launch, the buzz will be dead and people won't particularly care for it any more as much as they did, thus still won't bother buying it - Especially with all the other games coming out such as ACC which does have VR support (in a couple of weeks time of course).

    If you plan to implement it - Just tell us. Give a roadmap. Give us an idea what to expect. Worst possible thing you can do at the minute to the people interested and community is ignore it or say 'maybe down the line....'.
  • mjomjo Member New Car Smell
    not supporting vr is going backwards, Codies could be one of the main players in its adoption, like 1.0 was, so many people got in on it just for vr experience. 
    Community manager - wonder how her day looked yesterday, literally every announcement post (fb, twitter, reddit, here) is full of vr mentions, but there is no demand, sure.
    I bought D4 hoping for vr support in patch and to support the company, even if announced vr support for this I will wait for reviews, hard to see good implementation if it is afterthought, and they will have to have few months of meetings now before agreeing to doing it.
    shame
  • SkyRexSkyRex Member Petrol Head
    edited September 2018
    @Areyouben
    I looked a little into OpenVR (universal Wrapper API for SteamVR) and it seems to be as 'simple' as something like this:
    Pseudocode(!!!) for easier understanding and much shorter post:
    SomeInits();
    last_update = get_Timestamp();
    MainLoop(){
    deltaT = get_Timestamp() - last_update;
    last_update = get_Timestamp();
    EGO3_UpdatePhysics(deltaT);
    openVR->update_Pose();
    pose = openVR->get_HMD_Pose();
    left_matrix = pose->get_leftEye_tMatrix();
    right_matrix = pose->get_rightEye_tMatrix();
    frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(left_matrix);
    openVR->updateHMD(leftEye, frame_buffer);
    mainWindow->update(frame_buffer);
    frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(right_matrix);
    openVR->updateHMD(rightEye, frame_buffer);
    }
    This of course has no HUD or anything else tailored towards VR and it has no Menu and no VR-controllers. But with a small team, who have implemented VR in a game before, and having a top-level Wrapper like openVR, I don't really see the huge effort compared to all the other things you need in game-development. Major problem seems only the double-rendering neccesary, but that VR needs more Graphics horespower, we know already.
    Maybe the development for PSVR and Oculus was much more barebones back then and they are scared away unreasonable? The business-argument, while valid, is a little questionable, because back in the day VR for DR1 was even more of a small market and therefor a supposedly waste of time, than it is now. And they still did it. And every single other serious Sim coming out has VR support now to give you that maximum immerion. It is almost like Wheel-Support for the plethora of FFB-Wheels, which also are a niche-market and most buyers don't have one.
    EDIT: The code-Wrapper of the forum seems a little whacky (...broken?)
  • UP100UP100 Member Race Engineer
    SkyRex said:
    @Areyouben
    I looked a little into OpenVR (universal Wrapper API for SteamVR) and it seems to be as 'simple' as something like this:
    Pseudocode(!!!) for easier understanding and much shorter post:
    SomeInits();
    last_update = get_Timestamp();
    MainLoop(){
    deltaT = get_Timestamp() - last_update;

    last_update = get_Timestamp();
    EGO3_UpdatePhysics(deltaT);
    openVR->update_Pose();
    pose = openVR->get_HMD_Pose();
    left_matrix = pose->get_leftEye_tMatrix();
    right_matrix = pose->get_rightEye_tMatrix();
    frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(left_matrix);
    openVR->updateHMD(leftEye, frame_buffer);
    mainWindow->update(frame_buffer);
    frame_buffer = EGO3_RenderScene(right_matrix);
    openVR->updateHMD(rightEye, frame_buffer);
    }
    This of course has no HUD or anything else tailored towards VR and it has no Menu and no VR-controllers. But with a small team, who have implemented VR in a game before, and having a top-level Wrapper like openVR, I don't really see the huge effort compared to all the other things you need in game-development. Major problem seems only the double-rendering neccesary, but that VR needs more Graphics horespower, we know already.
    Maybe the development for PSVR and Oculus was much more barebones back then and they are scared away unreasonable? The business-argument, while valid, is a little questionable, because back in the day VR for DR1 was even more of a small market and therefor a supposedly waste of time, than it is now. And they still did it. And every single other serious Sim coming out has VR support now to give you that maximum immerion. It is almost like Wheel-Support for the plethora of FFB-Wheels, which also are a niche-market and most buyers don't have one.
    We would first have to know how the engine works before saying it's easy to implement. EGO3 is not Unity where literally everything is just one marketplace purchase away.
  • AreyoubenAreyouben Member Race Engineer
    edited September 2018
    It's not just a mather of slapping on that script and everything works as intended. The EGO tech has changed, things have been added, things have been updated, things have been removed or replaced. That means that slapping on that script and start rendering DiRT Rally 2.0 in VR might work, but in a very rough form. You need to test every aspect of the engine to ensure that it all works. For example you'll get issues with the z-index of new shaders and materials if things are changed there, you'll get issues with depth buffer if they changed stuff with that, you'll get issues with a lot of other technical things. After testing all that you need to change some technical aspects of the visual side of the EGO engine in order to support VR and then you have to test test test. And then you need to optimize, because all the things that have been added, like the particle and gfx work urgaffel did, might work well on traditional screens, but particles ofen suck in VR, they can do strange things, so they might break or perform bad in VR. So then you need extra time in order to fix that and then test that again to ensure all is good.

    So, yeah, they could slap on the same code they had in DiRT Rally, and they might have VR working, kinda. But they need to test, implement, test, change, test, re-implement, work work work work work work. It's just not a mather of clicking a few buttons. :(

    The VR market share is already quite small. Then the people within that market that also play simracing titles you'll get an even smaller group, a lot smaller than the FFB steering wheel market share. It's no excuse to never start implementing VR, and as I said, I would love to see it, I'm sure Codies would love to see it also, it's just not something they can do with 5 button clicks so they have to prioritize.

    In short, I'll quote somebody from the dev team. He said:
    urgaffel said:
    Making things work in VR involves almost every discipline, it's not just "1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer".
  • eXerfiteXerfit Member Unleaded
    Either way, when Kunos (AC), Slightly Mad Studios (Project Cars), iRacing, the microteam that makes Live for speed and the ONE guy who made VR possible on RBR, a game from 2004 can do it, why can't Codemasters do it?  Hell, even Codemasters has done it before in Dirt Rally. Their target audience is about the same people so the "we'll look into it if there is a demand" **** argument is invalid. 
    MongoJon [VR] on leaderboards.
  • UP100UP100 Member Race Engineer
    eXerfit said:
    Either way, when Kunos (AC), Slightly Mad Studios (Project Cars), iRacing, the microteam that makes Live for speed and the ONE guy who made VR possible on RBR, a game from 2004 can do it, why can't Codemasters do it?  Hell, even Codemasters has done it before in Dirt Rally. Their target audience is about the same people so the "we'll look into it if there is a demand" **** argument is invalid. 
    Dirt Rally was the second Codemasters game to include VR. The first one was GRID: Autosport (2014) which had an experimental VR mode. Both of these games have been developed on the old engine. EGO3 changed a lot of stuff and has been called an "all new engine" multiple times.

    I mean they have loads of stuff they want to do like always, so "if there is demand" probably means if they have time and can justify creating VR support for EGO3. This would benefit all EGO3 games in the long term, but no team seems to want to do it.
  • OpassacOpassac Member New Car Smell
    Areyouben said:
    Having worked on a few VR projects I would like to share these points:

    - VR is awesome!
    - VR has a future in simracing.
    - VR implementation is NOT a matter of clicking a few buttons.
    - VR implementation is NOT a matter of copy/paste from previous games.
    - VR market share is still very low compared to traditional single and triple screen setups.
    - Game development is a business, which consists of making choices throughout development that make financial sense.

    So to conclude: I'm not hating on VR, VR is awesome! But I'm not at all surprised about the missing of VR support at launch. It is a lot of work to implement. And in order to do all that work Codies needs to invest extra money which is difficult to justify if only a small portion of your player base is actually going to use it.

    It is kind of why no big developers worked on Kinect games. It was pretty cool tech as well but with a very low market share so it did not make sense to invest money in something not profitable.

    I'm not saying VR is the same as Kinect, or that it will fail like Kinect did. I would love to see DR 2.0 get VR support, it's just that the current market isn't there yet so for some developers it's difficult to justify the investment.
    The current market isn't there yet?!?!?! then why do almost all of the major racing titles these days provide VR support? Do companies like to loose money? 

  • GuegangsterGuegangster Member New Car Smell
    I don t care about excuses... If dirt rally didnt support wheels, how many would buy it?
    No VR support means no buy.

    I am dying for more content, but I already skipped Dirt 4, will do the same with Dirt Rally 2.0 if I have to!
  • DytutDytut Member Champion
    SkyRex said:
    Dytut said:
    And if supported, which VR sets? If DR 2 supports VR then I'm getting one.
    @Dytut don't make that decision only on the supported devices. There are cross-plattform tools, and there are some big differences between the headsets.
    I suggest finding a local electronics store, where you can try out a few.
    From my own research and testing:
    Original Vive and Oculus Rift have excellent tracking, but horrible Screen Door Effect (SDE), you can count pixels.
    Most of the WMR-Headsets have the same screen and lenses, which have quite a narrow sweet spot, meaning you will see blurry areas rather soon away from the centerline. And they have inside out tracking, which in my experience is well good enough for anything in cockpits (flying, driving) and very convenient. It just loses controllers easily when out of the headsets sight.
    Then there is the Vive Pro, which I did get to try on CeBiT. This meets all my criteria for great (first) VR headset, but it's imho hugely overpriced. And then there was the Odyssey, a WMR with the same high-res screens (2x1600x1440) as the Vive Pro and much bigger sweet spot. But officially unavailable in europe. Got one anyway, and it is the 2nd best VR I've tried so far (after Vive Pro), for a third of the price.
    Don't go by the resolution numbers, through the focus of lenses and the closeness to your eyes, you will have a lot less relevant pixels. A lot are outside the lens-focus and even more make up the cockpit your sitting in. Driving with my VR feels like a 720p screen (on-road), but the immersion and spacial sense makes up for it.
    Haven't tried the PSVR though, would gladly read some insight on that, anyone? Maybe making this partly a VR-Rallying-Advice-Thread?
    So the cross platform tools work well enough that you really don't need to care that much which headset you get nowadays? In that case it gets a bit easier.

    I'm considering getting a second hand oculus or vive just to test how it feels. But pretty much the only title I play that make use of it is DR so far, so it's rather hard to justify buying one just for one game. I can get another sword for the money instead which I'll use every week ;-)
    Arete or 43. M. Andersson on steam/leaderboards.


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