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Class War: Curious about people's opinions on DR2.0's car classes

So on the whole, the last two games have done a grand job of covering important eras of rallying and providing a huge variety of cars and classes. But classes of rallying aren’t particularly straightforward and I’ve noticed several discussions about this recently. On the whole, I felt D4 was pretty close to being spot on, but there were a few glaring points that stood out to me. Obviously, modern classes are fairly straightforward, but it was the historics that pushed DR from great to phenomenal to me and they’re different kettles of fish.

  1. The Lancia Stratos being in a different class to the Escort and 131. To me, this was the huge step back in class terms; the Stratos’ natural competitors are all in the H2 RWD class, but for some reason the mid-70s prototype finds itself up against M3s and Sierras that were commonplace in the 90s.
  2. The Lancer Evo 6 always seemed like a weird choice to me, but grouping it with the Lancia Delta 10 years its senior, when its contemporary Focus and Impreza were in a separate class never felt right.
  3. Ignoring the Stratos, the grouping of early 80s Group 4 and late 80s Group A, whilst a two car Group B RWD class was separate, felt like a confusing split.
  4. I was never a fan of the 2001 and 2007 cars being mixed together, when they would never have mixed in real life, but I’ve definitely mellowed on this one due to it representing club rallying.

Now, there’s every chance that all machinery made to ‘WRC’ regulations is out, rendering this discussion partially moot, but I would like to know others’ opinions on this matter anyway. Just for curiosity’s sake.

Personally, I don’t know what my splits would be. I’ve thought it over, but other than the obvious (move the Stratos to H2 please!) I’m not sure. On that note…


Group 2 (de facto 60s class)
Mini Cooper S
Lancia Fulvia HF 1300
Saab 96 (fingers remain crossed!)


Group 4 (de facto late 70s class)
Alpine A110
Ford Escort
Fiat 131
Lancia Stratos
Opel Kadett
Renault 5 Turbo
Opel Ascona
Porsche 911 (hey, I can dream)


Group A 2WD
VW Golf MK2
Peugeot 205 
BMW M3
Ford Sierra


Group B RWD
Lancia 037
Opel Manta


Group B 4WD
Audi Sport Quattro
Ford RS200
MG Metro 6R4
Lancia S4
Peugeot 205 Evo2


Group A 4WD
Lancia Delta
Subaru Impreza 555
Ford Escort Cosworth


I’m still stuck as to where I’d stick the Lancer Evo 6 if it were to return, so I’m sitting on that one...

I feel a bit uneasy about splitting the Lancia Delta from the Sierra and M3 and I would like to see the early Quattro and 205 to compete directly with the Manta and 037, but I think the above is my preference as things stand.

So come on, there are no wrong answers here (apart from not moving the Stratos, of course :P), let's hear your thoughts.

Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!

Comments

  • tbtstttbtstt Member Champion
    I’m still stuck as to where I’d stick the Lancer Evo 6 if it were to return, so I’m sitting on that one...
    I mentioned this in the Confirmed Car thread as (I think) the Evo 6 is too late to be included in the Group A class (an Evo 4 would be much more appropriate in my opinion).

    I would put the Evo 6 in a standalone, late 90's class then, because it shouldn't be on it's own, I would put an S4 Impreza WRC in game: everyone is happy! :D

    Joking aside though, if the DiRT 4 classes are to be used as a template then Group A is the only place the Evo 6 can really go. 

    If it were to be included then the Group 4 Quattro would be a very difficult car to place as well: it would run rings around the other Group 4 cars, but would be outclassed by everything in Group B so, purely considering the balance of classes, I think it would be better left out. 

    I know what you mean with regards to the mixed WRCars: I would like to see enough WRCars included to have maybe three (or four if 1.6L cars were included) sub groups, but of course you need the car numbers to justify that. And, as you have already said, I'd like to have the ability to mix all the WRCars together to represent national level rallying. 

    "If In Doubt, Flat Out!"


  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    edited November 13
    Mentioned the Lancer VI problem and presented a solution on that thread as well.

    Basically, even if they don't upgrade the Lancer to Evo 6.5, they could simply move it to the Up to 2000cc class to pair it with the Focus and Impreza 2001. After that, move the 2007 (whatever year they put) on to a different class. Separating by years might not be so apetizing to the eyes but it doesn't really matter. We're here to race. There's the argument that the Lancer is a Group A regulation car up until late 2001, but it doesn't really matter to be honest. They just put it in the Up to 2000cc Class and still brand it as a Group A car in the description for aesthetics. It is in the year of 2001 that you clearly see all these cars racing each other, except for the Corolla.

    This way we'd have a more complete class and more balanced, plus any other cars from that era could simply join the party (Corolla, 206, etc). As for the other classes you mentioned, totally agree.
  • DidzisDidzis Member Team Principal
    Where does the 240Z fit in? Together with the Group 4?
    And if we're dreaming, a Mazda RX-7 could be a great addition to Group B RWD. Since we're having the Datsun, maybe there's more Japanese cars?
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  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    Didzis said:
    Where does the 240Z fit in? Together with the Group 4?
    And if we're dreaming, a Mazda RX-7 could be a great addition to Group B RWD. Since we're having the Datsun, maybe there's more Japanese cars?
    The Datsun is far from confirmed (mentioned by a single press publication I believe), but it will be another of those awkward ones like the Evo VI. Even within the current structure it falls under H2 RWD but should be massively outclassed by the Escort, Opel and Fiat. A Group 4 Violet 160J would be a far better Nissan choice IMO.

    But mainly basing my opinions on cars we are aware of or were in the previous games. Where would you place a 240Z? Or any others.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • Oscar97Oscar97 Member Wheel Nut
    I think the historic classes (R1, R2 and R3) should still be classed depending on their performance. The Stratos, R5 Turbo and Ascona are most likely too good compared to the R2 cars. And I don't think RWD and FWD should be mixed.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    edited November 14
    The Stratos shouldn't be too good for the others though; it was the contemporary of the 131 and Escort and was far from dominant in the era.

    They were together in DiRT Rally remember.
    Post edited by RodgerDavies on
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • Chewy21398Chewy21398 Member New Car Smell
    Car classes should go by engine size, obviously there's a few expcetions to historic cars but that's the way most national rallys are ran. E.g class 10 is 2wd 1600cc engine's, class 20 is 4wds with 2000cc engines. If you finish in the top 3 overall you can't win your class 
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    Something they should do is an overall leaderboard where all the classes take part in the stage (if some do). THen you'd have the class leaderboard to see where you were placed in your class. That's how it goes in real rallies and maybe it could add a bit more to the immersion.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    AIPacino said:
    Something they should do is an overall leaderboard where all the classes take part in the stage (if some do). THen you'd have the class leaderboard to see where you were placed in your class. That's how it goes in real rallies and maybe it could add a bit more to the immersion.
    This was in Dirt4 - could have been better/more obvious, but it was a nice touch in immersion IMO.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    edited November 14
    I dont recall seeing that, because I always managed to finish in the top spots. Perhaps they only added inferior classes to compete, but it'd be interesting to compare with the other superior classes. Instead of putting all of them, maybe filter according to the classes that are able to take part in that event.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    AIPacino said:
    I dont recall seeing that, because I always managed to finish in the top spots. Perhaps they only added inferior classes to compete, but it'd be interesting to compare with the other superior classes.
    I believe you could do this too - just the default setting was for your class. But if you were in an R2 you competed against R4 and R5 in some events.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    AIPacino said:
    Something they should do is an overall leaderboard where all the classes take part in the stage (if some do). THen you'd have the class leaderboard to see where you were placed in your class. That's how it goes in real rallies and maybe it could add a bit more to the immersion.
    Been begging for this for ages. I don't care what the fastest my class ran, I want to know the fastest ALL classes ran, both in championships and in league/online events. I love seeing how far I can push a class, if I can take my Kadett and hold the top spot against 80s or Group A's. Let me compare with my friends/leaderboards for the 70's class I just ran in the Kadett; but then let me also compare that same time to my friend's E30 time or another friend's STI time because those are their preferred cars and I'd rather see whose time was better overall. Let me also filter by whether conditions/time of day, or completely disable those filters too so I can just see whose raw time was faster.
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  • Smithers1968Smithers1968 Member Unleaded
    I think there are some lessons to learn from the RBR Czech tournaments here.
    1. Having mutiple class events is great. Of course those going for an outright win will stick to the fatsest but for the rest of us it's nice to be able to choose a car that's easy or fun to drive and compare to others in the same class. This is how it works in real life. In game it helps with entry count. I wouldn't enter a monthly with a Kit car but if it's open I'll gladly compete in a Grp 4. It's also nice when you do beat someone with a much more powerful car. 
    2. There's a greater split with 2WD and 4WD than by year or power. RBR has a Group 4 Quattro. Yes, it's entitled to be there but makes it seem futile driving even one of the Porches. In real life Historic rallies they split classes by drivetrain, age, original homologation etc. but that would fragment the player base too much.
    3. Many cars were built to fit different groups, usually Group 2 and Group 4. Now, I'm not saying it's a simple as offering a less powerful engine in the game but I'd think that if you've done all the work to create a Group 4 car you're 90% done with creating a group 2 version. There are several examples in RBR and it works quite well. Cheap way to boost the car count too!

    A nice touch would be if damage and reliability reflected the real models. This would really make us choose the car for our style. @RodgerDavies Points out the Stratos was far from dominant. Much of this was because it was quite fragile and needed a careful driver. The Escort was may have been slower on paper but was a simple, tough car that could be driven hard to the end. Do you want the fast car that you have to look after or a slower one that'll take a few knocks? Even better would be if the damage/reliability reflected known weak points for that model - one car prone to broken springs, another to driveshafts etc. Of course, this would take a lot of work to get right and not mess the balance up too much.
  • Chewy21398Chewy21398 Member New Car Smell
    Need to see classes by power/year/drive train/modified engines or standard/ top 3 fastest cars should not count towards class points as it is at every reginal rally. Rallys should also have entry's with loads of different car classes and seeded by fastest crew and experience and car class
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