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DR2 E-Sports - How People should rise?

In the new short video, with absolutely zero new footage (show some other location CM please) a question is asked to the community:

"... how we identify the best players in the world..."?
Here's a place to discuss that. My two cents: People like to compete in small managable groups, that have some meaning to them(not just random group Nr. 51497). So for E-Sports I would suggest some format of Geo-Leagues in addition to the probably returning custom community Leagues. I imagine geographical defined leagues, from top "Global"-League, to local "Greater Glagow Area"-League.
Everybody has an assigned Geo-League. The Leagues run Championships, lasting like two weeks each.
After each season, players get moved. If you haven't competed, you don't move at all (Not everybody can play every week in their daily life).
BUT All players, who have competed, but ended with zero points, get moved down a league. The top 3 (or 5) players, with most points, move up a league.
This way, the point-reward system becomes a direct way to limit league sizes and filter the best players up and down, while not punishing inactive ones.

Example(WRC System): 6 Rallys per Championship. First 10 places get points. This will ensure a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 60 people have points each run. With some statistics, this will ensure leagues sizes around ca. 50-70 people each. (3 go to top, Ca. 20-30 stay and rest drops down, influx of ca. 20-30 new ones from winners in leagues below)

Everybody will be able to flow into a competitive Geo-League for themselves, and have an overseeable number of opponents.

Example of League structure:
  1. Global/World
  2. Eurasia ; Americas ; Afrika ; Oceania
  3. Europe ; Northern Eurasia ; Middle East ; Indochina ; Indian Subcontinet ; ...
  4. Central Europe ; Nordics ; British Isles ; Iberia ; ...
  5. Germany ; Benelux ; France ; ...
  6. Northrine-Westfalia ; Saxony ; Bavaria ; ...
  7. Cologne MA(greater Metropolitan Area) ; Düsseldorf MA ; Münster MA ; Arnsberg MA : ... 
For fairness, such a tree would benefit from good balancing. Like all Leaves have same depth (7 in example) and all Nodes have roughly same amount of sub-leagues.
So...thoughts?
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Comments

  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    I like the concept but you'll have to be really picky with how you manage league sizes and points. You also have to limit the depth of the leagues, as 7 seems too deep to actually get anything meaningful with the playbase these games tend to hold. They hit strong but the players that remain months and years later definitely drops off. You also need to have the sizes of each tier vary and adjust the points per stage to keep it competitive and fun.

    The geo-location leagues though are a fantastic idea.

    I'd say you have probably 3-4 tiers at most; (Local) -> Regional -> National -> Worlds.

    Dirt Rally | G27 | Predator x34 | Oculus Rift | Rhinegeist Truth

    I enjoy a game that kicks my ass. If I'm not cussing, this **** is too easy.
  • SkyRexSkyRex Member Petrol Head
    I'd say you have probably 3-4 tiers at most; (Local) -> Regional -> National -> Worlds.

    I would especially avoid a national level, as it is inherently unfair. Some nations have myriads of more players than others. Which gives the populus ones a natural disadvantage, and an advantage for micro- and small nations. That's why I suggested to pit the whole Benelux against european heavy nations Germany and France.
    It get's most extreme, when pitting a small, low player country on the same level as a big, high player country. Like Bhutan and the USA being on the same depth-level.
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    edited November 20
    Thats why you can have a system like UEFA does for the clubs. Some nations have more slots than others based on performance and country coefficients at the top levels. Hard for me to explain but you can just look at uefa's websites how the champions league and europa league slots work.

    It would be interesting to have some kind of series and structure rather than just a global qualifier. That would keep people more committed, connected and the whole thing would last longer. You'd have to climb up the ranks starting from your region or country in order to reach the international level and then even in the international level you'd have things like WRC2 or simply a few qualifiers up until reaching the top level. Keep in mind the Pro Tour mode can be a serious tool if worked further, in order to stablish a rank. But it needs to be properly set up for this specific structure of esports and not just a "random track random car" thingy.

    This would also prompt the creation of communities inside our own community and it would become attractive for more people to join the game, even outsiders. People want organized competition and thats something DiRT Rally lacked besides content.
  • FedemaisonnaveFedemaisonnave Member, Drivers Petrol Head
    I will think more like Regional<National<Continental<World.
    Also the stage leaderboards would be great if they can be filtered, by car, nationality, etc.
    Also I would like to the drivers get real names like in RaceRoom, you race against John Doe for example not Johnny2522  :D
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    edited November 20
    Plus, stages shouldn't be lapped. They should be one run only and no restarts. I know D4's had to have this obliged, but this time the stages are bespoken so theres no reason for that. And it would be awesome if we had a short live time like a weekend dedicated to those events instead of a full week. This would also keep the community closer. Details here.
  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    SkyRex said:
    I'd say you have probably 3-4 tiers at most; (Local) -> Regional -> National -> Worlds.

    I would especially avoid a national level, as it is inherently unfair. 
    I probably should have clarified it in the post, but none of these tiers would use literal definitions, more of general "sizing". Nationals could be something like "North American Nationals" instead of 3 different groups for USA, Canada, and Mexico. Same would apply to the EU; regionals would probably be the individual countries for like UK, France, Germany, etc and then the National tier would split the EU in half/thirds to keep some good diversity and group identity (ie East/West EU Nationals) but to help break up that imbalance in country sizes.

    The actual groupings need to be fleshed out, but the general idea of ~3 tiers I think needs to be used because much deeper than that and you'll have too complex of a system for majority of people. I know some of us would love that kind of depth, but there is a tipping point when you'll drastically lower the amount of active players when you give too much detail and too long of progression. Unfortunately Dirt doesn't have the same kind of hook that can keep lots of players grinding away at leaderboards like LoL or Dota can.
    Dirt Rally | G27 | Predator x34 | Oculus Rift | Rhinegeist Truth

    I enjoy a game that kicks my ass. If I'm not cussing, this **** is too easy.
  • SkyRexSkyRex Member Petrol Head
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    What is the benefit here? Honest question?
    1. Who verifies the names? Who would stop me, calling myself "Sky Rex", a somewhat plausible sounding name?
    2. Lots of cultures have letters, that are hardly represented by some IT-systems today. How would a Mister "Þjóðvarður" feel about that? (A real, officially registered Icelandic name)
    3. All names, even all words, are essentially made up things. Where is the difference between our "real" made up names and our "virtual" made up nicknames?

  • FedemaisonnaveFedemaisonnave Member, Drivers Petrol Head
    edited November 20
    SkyRex said:
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    What is the benefit here? Honest question?
    1. Who verifies the names? Who would stop me, calling myself "Sky Rex", a somewhat plausible sounding name?
    2. Lots of cultures have letters, that are hardly represented by some IT-systems today. How would a Mister "Þjóðvarður" feel about that? (A real, officially registered Icelandic name)
    3. All names, even all words, are essentially made up things. Where is the difference between our "real" made up names and our "virtual" made up nicknames?

    Because it is more realistic, I dont see sebastien ogier asking to use insted of his name, SebO552 or Tiny Unicorn
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    I think the biggest challenge here is the fact that steam players can change their name whenever they want and that will also change the name in racenet. So maybe a good idea would be for racenet or DR2.0 to have its own Driver Profile and use it from there, plus have a unique ID or nickname assigned to it so we knew who we were racing from an event to another. It's easy to lose track on people who constantly change names.
  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    edited November 20
    SkyRex said:
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    What is the benefit here? Honest question?

    Agree with you here, I see absolutely ZERO benefit aside from people using multiple accounts for multiple chances. And at that point, I honeslty don't care because it is such a tiny fraction of players it is 100% negligible since by the time we hit top tier there will be some sort of verification process. I assumed that was a given for the "Worlds" tier but if we need to state it then we can state it: drivers will be verified once they hit the highest tier. I see no need to force them to change their ingame names too, let them use their gamertags and handles.

    And honestly, this would hurt the total number of players, and probably not in an insignificant way. Most people don't like giving out their personal info, let alone being forced to do it so I can play a game? Yeah forget that. Let CM jump through Steam/PSN/Xbox APIs to validate accounts and verify user credentials, don't force people to release them to the general public.
    Dirt Rally | G27 | Predator x34 | Oculus Rift | Rhinegeist Truth

    I enjoy a game that kicks my ass. If I'm not cussing, this **** is too easy.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    SkyRex said:
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    What is the benefit here? Honest question?
    1. Who verifies the names? Who would stop me, calling myself "Sky Rex", a somewhat plausible sounding name?
    2. Lots of cultures have letters, that are hardly represented by some IT-systems today. How would a Mister "Þjóðvarður" feel about that? (A real, officially registered Icelandic name)
    3. All names, even all words, are essentially made up things. Where is the difference between our "real" made up names and our "virtual" made up nicknames?

    Fair comment

    1. No-one. Call yourself Sky Rex by any means. But encourage it. It's not mandated in Raceroom, but check out the leaderboards: http://game.raceroom.com/leaderboard/?track=1778&car_class=class-1703
    2. I'm pretty sure they can find a font which allows any input letters. And if not, I'm sure people with rarer (in a global sense) characters are used to writing it another way. Again, other games manage this.
    3. People tend to be more personable online when using their real names, I find. The more transparency, the more 'being real' the better. But I would say that, I use my real name where possible. Now, in rallying, there's less likely to be conflict, but I've seen enough online ranting and abuse by people to look for any way of discouraging it. For the record, I think social media profiles should be the same.

    Personal opinion, I don't expect everyone to share it.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • SkyRexSkyRex Member Petrol Head
    edited November 20
    SkyRex said:
    AIPacino said:
    Real names should be something mandatory in order to take part in this ranked system, just like they've done in DWC.
    YES! THIS!

    Raceroom is very good for this too.
    What is the benefit here? Honest question?
    1. Who verifies the names? Who would stop me, calling myself "Sky Rex", a somewhat plausible sounding name?
    2. Lots of cultures have letters, that are hardly represented by some IT-systems today. How would a Mister "Þjóðvarður" feel about that? (A real, officially registered Icelandic name)
    3. All names, even all words, are essentially made up things. Where is the difference between our "real" made up names and our "virtual" made up nicknames?

    Because it is more realistic, I dont see sebastien ogier asking to use insted of his name, SebO552 or Tiny Unicorn
    I have seen some "Ken Block" on a leaderboard, although that dude is actually named "Kenneth".
    And there is a Hervé "KNAPICK"-LEMONNIER on the FIA WRX Leaderboard...

    I think what bothers you, are actually the numbers? So what if everybody has to pick a "driver name" limited by factors: A minimum of two words, separated by space. AND no numbers, only (world-)alphabetical signs. This was the Leaderboards will feel realisitc?
    Most people only have numbers anyway, because their self identified pseudonym was already taken in its pure form.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    To answer the OP, I don't really want to see any more than were in DR and D4. I loved the addition of live lobbies with chatrooms and concurrent runners in D4, so long as this stays I don't really mind what else there is. I agree with the 'dailies/weeklies should only be able to be started once' comment above too.

    I'd rather the resources for online play were used elsewhere to be honest; I think the most straightforward competitions are the most revealing. I'd rather any other resource in this area was spent on AI/career, if it's applicable.
    Put the Stratos back in H2 please!!!
  • AIPacinoAIPacino Member Wheel Nut
    edited November 20
    AI Career is only good until people get fed up with it. Having a solid multiplayer structure and esports plans is what's going to keep the game alive trust me. I dont think theres a risk of losing resources from elsewhere because we'll be entertained for the first months with the career and basic multiplayer modes while they work on the esports.

    Another important note: They should focus on 1 class of cars for an entire season, and not just random mix. This will make the season more consistent. Then the class could change in the next season.

    Example:

    1st season: R5s
    2nd season: Up To 2000cc

    They could also play with the lower classes for smaller regional or national events. So people would start low and progress on their online career (similar to what they had in GRID multiplayer).
  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    AIPacino said:
    AI Career is only good until people get fed up with it. Having a solid multiplayer structure and esports plans is what's going to keep the game alive trust me. I dont think theres a risk of losing resources from elsewhere because we'll be entertained for the first months with the career and basic multiplayer modes while they work on the esports.

    Another important note: They should focus on 1 class of cars for an entire season, and not just random mix. This will make the season more consistent. Then the class could change in the next season.

    Example:

    1st season: R5s
    2nd season: Up To 2000cc

    They could also play with the lower classes for smaller regional or national events. So people would start low and progress on their online career (similar to what they had in GRID multiplayer).
    Fully agree, constant class championships are the only way to do it right. Basically like the old license tests in all the throwback racing games we all played. I wouldn't jump immediately to saying single class, because I like where you go with the second part -  play with the lower classes for smaller regional or national events. To keep it the most competitive you'll need same class sure, but I think in the lower tiers you might be able to get away with opening it up a little for multiple classes and narrowing it to specifics as people climb. Sure, it won't help the slower drivers if they pick the Escort or Kadett in a 70s/80s championship, but for the faster drivers it'll let them have more variation and fun while giving all of us a little extra diversity. I think people really underestimate how fast every class can be when someone skilled with a specific car is behind the wheel.

    There is a reason my Kadett has held me up on the podium these last few weeks during an Open Class League against 2000's and R4's (2010's and Group B's are banned). Would I be able to keep doing that in the absolute top tier of Worlds? Hell no, but for first 70-80% of races before even getting close to Worlds I can hold it down. Let some of us try and test our skills, we get actual enjoyment in picking a "bad" class and trying to see how far we can push it.
    Dirt Rally | G27 | Predator x34 | Oculus Rift | Rhinegeist Truth

    I enjoy a game that kicks my ass. If I'm not cussing, this **** is too easy.
  • dgeesi0dgeesi0 Member Champion
    first thing allow people to copy each others set ups or keep set ups fixed. that way it becomes about skill and racing rallying. not set up. this was done wrong in dirt 4 world championships for eg. some could use set ups that others cant. you are instantly behind before even starting if someone has a better set up. either make the system like f1 copy set up use. or...lock them so all level playing field.

    2nd. rather than rant on about it . stop cheating better. add hardware bans. make a stance on this. too many racing games . games in general try to do esports but cant even control cheating. wrc 7 was rife was it. instantly put me off even though broke loads of world records and faster than many who entered the world series. one was removed right just before the final. people even communicated with the devs about the cheating. wasnt dealt with well.

    some fast people or even faster than world champions wont even do events or leagues sometimes because of this. if you offer big prizes there will always be people willing to cheat to get them. dirt 4 f1 had cheats available during world championships.this shouldnt happen.

    dirt rally darren did his best but basically it was a wipe then they returned. you have to have a legit playing field.it has to be a no tollerance policy and vac ban hardware ban people that do.

    listen to people who are actualy going to take part ! this is such a big thing ! kinda hypercritical cause i probably wont do it even if im smashing world records but many people here will suggest things but wont be taking part. some will be good ideas but some ideas will be pointless as they wont be involved anyway. maybe thats me included. :D

    i think codemasters has done quite well with f1 rally is obviously the next step and something i crowed on about quite a few times. so its nice to see it happening finally.

    get people to run all surfaces. with different types of cars modern and historical. some people are fast in fwd but slow in RWD . dont allow one type of rallying to dominate the overall scores with silly points system. so for eg rally cross events 3 races vs 3 rallys. 3 rallys are harder to do fast than quick circuit races. someone whos fast at circuit rally cross could potentially win a rally crown yet be slow at the actual rally events. which tbh are what you here for. or how i see it.





  • CatBaddersCatBadders Member Unleaded
    dgeesi0 said:
    first thing allow people to copy each others set ups or keep set ups fixed.
    ...
    stop cheating better. add hardware bans. make a stance on this. 

    I'm all for 100% stock tunings used in events to fully mitigate min-maxing setups. I do also see the purpose of them, but I think a lot of headaches can stem from not doing it correctly so I'd lean towards stock tuning.

    As for hardware bans... that is physically not possible. Literally anything you can use to ID and ban someone can be spoofed and changed. Want to try and rip all the HW ID's off my system and ban each piece? I can change all of those IDs before the event is even over. At best you can ban accounts and force people to keep paying $60 every time they get caught. The easiest way to handle this though is do some simple math for every stage, count the 5/6's as straights and determine how long it would take someone to finish if they were flatout the entire time, using something insane for the acceleration delta out of corners (ie: 0-100mph in 2 seconds). Use that as your threshhold, have Jon or someone test it by setting a blistering time too and see how close they are.

    The base "bannable" time should be ~45 seconds faster than Jon's fastest times - anything that crosses that threshold should be instantly removed or flagged. There will always be cheaters and people playing the system to shave time they don't deserve, so you do everything you can to mitigate the most obvious, and flag the rest for review. Now if they would actually give us the telemetry data for all times of any player, it becomes stupidly simple to ID illegitimate times - you could even pawn off the work onto the community to flag the worst ones. 
    Dirt Rally | G27 | Predator x34 | Oculus Rift | Rhinegeist Truth

    I enjoy a game that kicks my ass. If I'm not cussing, this **** is too easy.
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