Welcome to the Codemasters Forums! Be sure to check the FAQ and Forum Rules before you get started.

Dirt Rally handbrake and transmission information

karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
edited December 2016 in DiRT Games - General Discussion
Hi, I want to drive Dirt Rally-game with all authentic settings, but finding out if old rallycars had handbrake or not is very difficult.
I would be very happy if someone or Codemasters could help me and others.

Here is what I've found out myself. Please correct if I'm wrong.
and to be more precise:  Which rally cars had a handbrake that was useful while racing, for example in hairpins?

edit:
 transmission info added of what I think is authentic choice.
+ steering wheel rotation info added

Informations are updated after 1.11 (June 2016) update.

60's
Mini Cooper: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees

Lancia Fulvia: YES? [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees

Renault Alpine A110: YES? [H-shifter+clutch],  steering wheel rotation is 990 degrees

70's
Opel Kadett GT/E: YES? [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1976, last wrc-event podium(3rd, no victories) 1978 (Criterium Molson du Quebec, Canada)

Fiat 131 Abarth: YES? [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 1080 degrees
- introduced 1976, last wrc-event victory 1981 (Rallye de Portugal Vinho do Porto)

Ford Escort Mk2 RS1800: YES? [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1975, last wrc-event victory 1981 1000 Lakes Rally, Finland

Lancia Stratos: handbrake NO (earlier versions 1974-77 might have had it, but maybe later they took it off to get car even lighter or it was used only in tarmac rallies idk?), Markku Alen explaining it here in this video, time 6:20 (he drove this car at least in couple rallies in 1978)
[H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1974, last wrc-event victory 1981 Tour de Corsa, France

Group B 4WD
MG Metro 6R4: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1985, last and only wrc-event podium(3rd, no victories)  in 1985 Lombard RAC Rally, Wales

Audi Sport Quattro: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1984, last and only wrc-event victory 1984 Rallye Cote d'Ivoire

Ford RS200: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- intorduced 1986, last wrc-event podium (no victories)

Peugeot 205 T16 Evo2: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1984, in game car Evo2 from 1985, last wrc-event victory 1986 Lombard RAC Rally, Wales

Lancia Delta S4: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees. This car possibly(according to Markku Alen) got hydraulic handbrake halfway through the season 1986
- introduced 1985 (in 1985 RAC Rally), last wrc-event victory 1986 Olympus Rally, USA

Group B RWD
Lancia 037: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 810 degrees
- introduced 1982, in game car Evo 2 from 1984, last wrc-event victory 1984 Tour de Corse, France

Opel Manta 400: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
- introduced 1983, last wrc-event podium(2nd, no victories) 1984 Safari Rally (1983 Safari Rally victory with Ascona 400)

80's RWD
BMW E30 M3: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1987

Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1987

Renault 5 Turbo: YES [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1981 (in game car is Turbo 2-version from 1982).
In my opinion this car should be in the Group B rwd class because it was competing against Lancia 037 and Opel Ascona/Manta 400.

Group A (4WD)
Lancia Delta HF Integrale: YES [ H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1987, in game car is the last Evoluzione-model introduced 1992

Ford Escort RS Cosworth: YES [direct H-shifter], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
Here's incar footage from year 1993 with Malcolm Wilson(now M-Sport team chief ) driving this car and using transmission that seems to be a Direct H-shifter

- introduced 1993

Subaru Impreza 555: YES [direct H-shifter], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced 1994

F2 Kit-Car
Seat Ibiza kit car: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced

Peugeot 306 Maxi kit car: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- introduced

R4
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X: YES [Direct H-shifter], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- 2007

Subaru Impreza WRX STI (hatchback): YES [Direct H-shifter], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
- in game car from 2011

2000s
Ford Focus RS WRC '01: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
Colin McRae used 720 degree rotation with this car

Subaru Impreza WRC '01: YES [one push&pull paddle-shifter], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
Richard Burns had 540 degree rotation with this car (here he's using to max lock  after time 1:12 )

Citroen C4 Rally: YES [one push&pull paddle-shifter], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
- introduced 2007 (Monte Carlo Rally), in game car from 2010

Ford Focus RS Rally '07: YES [one push&pull paddle-shifter], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees

2010's
Mini Countryman YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
- introduced 2011, in game car is 2011-2014 model

Ford Fiesta YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees (Fredrik Ählin wrc2 driver in Fiesta R5 uses 330 degree trotation)
- introduced 2011, in game car is 2011-2014 model

Hyundai i20 Rally YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
- introduced 2014, in game car  is 2014 model

Volkswagen Polo R Rally YES [one push&pull paddle-shifter], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees (Sebastian Ogier may have used 360 degree rotation in Polo)
- introduced 2013, in game car is 2015 model

(sequential sticks for 2011-2014 models, paddle-shifter allowed again for season 2015)
NOTE: Many of  todays wrc drivers might use lower rotation, all the way down to 330-360 degrees.

Hillclimb
Peugeot 205 Pikes Peak: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 900 degrees
-introduced 1987

Audi Sport Quattro S1 Pikes Peak: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
-introduced 1987
I found info that Walter Röhrl might have had some sort of clutch-switch on the gear-stick so that he could do left-foot braking all the time.

Peugeot 405 Pikes Peak: NO [H-shifter+clutch], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
On the internet someone said that this car had a 4-wheel steering, but I'm not sure if that's correct.
-introduced 1988

Peugeot 208 T16 Pikes Peak: NO? [paddles, left+right], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
- introduced 2013

Rallycross
Classic Mini: Yes? [Sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 900(or is it 720) degrees

FWD,  S1600
Opel Corsa Super 1600: Yes [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
Renault Clio S1600: Yes [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees
Peugeot 207 S1600: Yes [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 720 degrees

4WD
Citroen DS3 YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
Ford Fiesta: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
VW Polo: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
Peugeot 208: YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
Mini Countryman YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
Subaru Impreza YES [sequential stick], steering wheel rotation 540 degrees
Post edited by karik134 on
«1

Comments

  • slowreflexslowreflex Member New Car Smell
    So are you saying you want to manually change the settings for each car you change to to be accurate?  Or are you saying that the game should have realistic cars by default?  Even if it means no handbrake for some?
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    Manual change is ok for me. Maybe there could also be some sort of authentic-setting and then handbrake could not be used/or mapped to the game at all with cars that did not have it.

    I have handbrake mapped on a button all the time, but I really only need correct information if certain cars did not have handbrake so I know not to use it.
    For example I have no idea if the 70's 131 Abarth,Escort MkII, Stratos had a handbrake or not. That is something I would like to know.
  • slowreflexslowreflex Member New Car Smell
    Sounds cool that you want to do that, but wouldn't that only work against other players with the same settings if you are doing multiplayer?  Or are you not worried about multiplayer or winning?  Or do you think that a handbrake is not a large enough advantage to matter?
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    I don't really care that much how well I do against others(human players), but on some stages atleast I can beat career Master A.I.

    Well, I did pretty good run on yesterdays(June 23) daily with Sierra Cosworth RS500.
    I was 19seconds behind the winner on a 2min58s stage, 38th place out of 2368 players. I did one practice run, used cockpit/helmet-cam, rotation was 720, H-shifter+clutch+handbrake.

    I just like to drive with same kind of options/settings that real drivers had in the past.
    Which also means I only use
    - head/helmet-cam
    - authentic choice of transmission (list on first message)
    - real wheel rotation 900/720/540 that car has (except can not simulate Fiat 131 Abarth 1080rotation because  my wheel max is 900degrees)
    - handbrake / no handbrake (to this I use that list on first message)
    Post edited by karik134 on
  • meerkat80meerkat80 Member Co-Driver
    Interesting.

    Well, the devs are making real efforts into making the drive experience as real as possible (inside the limits of this "slightly arcade-ish non hardcore sim"), like for example the soft lock and the broad steering degrees for some of the old cars.

    If we have actual steering degrees, would be perfectly reasonable to have an option to disable handbrake to the cars are not equiped with. This, and real steering lock should have also an impact on the % of reward inside the profile. Makes sense to me. If you don't want, just don't disable the option into the profile. Very easy to implement.




  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    ^And same thing when using realistic shifting choice.

    All the cars now in the game have H-shifters+clutch except 2010's which I think are 2011 cars(or 2011-2014) when they used sequential shifter-stick. Paddleshifter was allowed again for this season(2015).

    H-shifter+clutch were used on modern rallycars uptil 1996 and when the new WRC-classification came for season 1997, they started using (or were allowed to use) sequential stick. Peugeot 206 was the first one to have a that paddleshifter thing in 1999-season.
    Post edited by karik134 on
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    You're spot on about the 2010/2011 cars, sequential stick (apart from Kubica who was allowed a modified Citroen and Ford).
  • cjl9cjl9 Member Pit Crew
    Can confirm Stratos, Escort MkII, Fiat Abarth had handbrakes.

    In fact as all rally cars have to be road legal I bet they all do!
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    cjl9 said:
    Can confirm Stratos, Escort MkII, Fiat Abarth had handbrakes.

    In fact as all rally cars have to be road legal I bet they all do!
    So do you also mean that for example Group B 4WD cars and Lancia 037(RWD) had handbrakes because they had to be road legal?

    Why did they go around hairpins like this then if they had a handbrake to use,  (Lancia 037 at time 3:41)? You can also see Renault R5 Maxi Turbo(2:47) and Opel Manta 400(3:12) which were Group B RWD cars and they take those corners completely with different style.


    Maybe all those Group B 4WD cars had handbrakes but it wasn't usable while racing with the type of 4WD-system they used at the time (no actice locks).
    Question is then why Lancia 037 RWD did not use handbrake when other similar RWD's did (Renault R5 Turbo, Opel Manta 400), or did Lancia 037's handbrake affect front tyres or something else?

    Fastest way to get 100% correct information would be of course to send e-mail to old rally drivers (like Alen, Vatanen, Mikkola) and ask them :)
    Post edited by karik134 on
  • oprahIEoprahIE Member New Car Smell
    I like this idea too. The rally versions should be as they were in real life.
  • DidzisDidzis Member Team Principal
    karik134 said:
    I have handbrake mapped on a button all the time, but I really only need correct information if certain cars did not have handbrake so I know not to use it.
    Would be cool, if it was like in GRID Autosport, where some cars (like the formulas) just don't have the handbrake, and if you press the button, nothing happens. 
    i5-3350P | Be Quiet! Shadow Rock 2 | MSI B75A-G43 Gaming | Gigabyte GTX650Ti Boost | Kingston HyperX Red 8GB | Kingston SSDNow V300 120GB | WDC Blue 1TB | Corsair VS550 | Fractal-Design Core 3000 | Logitech Driving Force GT + Logitech Formula Force EX

    DiRT 2 | DiRT 3 CE | DiRT Showdown | DiRT Rally | DiRT 4 | GRID | GRID 2 | GRID Autosport | F1 2015
  • SnailDirtSnailDirt Member Unleaded
    All Gr. B cars including the RWD had a handbrake system. Other thing is that they used it or not. But they all had.
  • RodgerDaviesRodgerDavies Member Champion
    Yes, they had a handbrake but I believe it locked all 4 wheels so it wouldn't have been practical for use.
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    ^ What about the 70s cars then? And what about the Lancia 037? On that videolink earlier Lancia 037 driver(at time 3:41) didn't use handbrake, but Renault 5 Maxi Turbo(at time 2:47) and Opel Manta 400(at time 3:12) drivers did, all three cars are RWD?

    Here is old footage of Escort MkII RS1800 in Manx-rally 1981 on tarmac.
    Does he (Roger Clark) use handbrake at time 2:04 or does he just brake so hard that the rear wheels lock up. In the beginning of the video(at time 0:54) there are couple uphill hairpins where he(and an other driver) doesn't use handbrake, or it wouldn't have been worth using(not saving any time).


     It's pretty hard to find old footage from tarmac rallies with Escort MkII, 131 Abarth, Stratos. And the footage also have to include hairpins to see if they actually used handbrake.

    Here is something (at time 6:56) that looks like a scandinavian flick with Lancia 037 on (wet) tarmac, am I correct?

    Couple more tarmac hairpins (at time 1:10 and 1:25) with Lancia 037 that look like some sort of flicks or powerslides (and maybe not using handbrake?)

    Post edited by karik134 on
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    Here is information about transmission types that could be used on 1993 Impreza rallycar.

    http://www.tech-racingcars.eu/subaru-impreza-gc8-555
    Transmission
    Typefour wheel driveProdrive 5 or 6 speed semi-automatic gearbox with pneumatic paddle-shift or conventional H-pattern
    So paddle-shift (and also sequential stick) was an option for some rally cars already at year 1993 (or in years between 1993-1996). Is that correct?

    Here is car test with Colin McRae and he seems to use H-shifter without clutch.

    Post edited by karik134 on
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think some authenticity should be sacrificed for the sake of making the game contemporary, after all, it takes place in 2015 and the events in it aren't historic rallies, nor do they seem to follow historic rally rules. Drivers who compete in modern rallies using classic cars, such as the Ford Escort Mk II, have had them modified with a rear-locking handbrake. So if you were allowed to enter a rally with a Group B machine like, say, a Metro 6R4, it would make sense to upgrade it to increase competitiveness. That being said, I defend that the car should look and feel as original as possible while making some concessions. In other words, I want a balance between originality and the car fitting into the world of rallying today.
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think some authenticity should be sacrificed for the sake of making the game contemporary, after all, it takes place in 2015 and the events in it aren't historic rallies, nor do they seem to follow historic rally rules. Drivers who compete in modern rallies using classic cars, such as the Ford Escort Mk II, have had them modified with a rear-locking handbrake. So if you were allowed to enter a rally with a Group B machine like, say, a Metro 6R4, it would make sense to upgrade it to increase competitiveness. That being said, I defend that the car should look and feel as original as possible while making some concessions. In other words, I want a balance between originality and the car fitting into the world of rallying today.
    I'm fine with the game as it is now. I'm just after information if those rallycars had usable handbrake while racing and what kind of transmission they had when they were used in real rallies of the time period. I don't care about historic rallies or what modifications have been done to the cars afterwards.

    I can do changes to transmission type (+to use or not to use handbrake-choice) by myself in the game settings and drive with authentic setup(correct transmission, handbrake yes/no-option). I just don't have the 100% correct information and that's why I started this topic to ask if someone else knows about this stuff better than I do.

    Beside this isn't anything bad for other drivers, I mean everybody can always drive with their own settings concerning transmission type/use of handbrake/wheel rotation etc. Well, I wouldn't mind if the game had a some sort of authentic-preference setting in the Profile so all options would be automaticly changed depending of the car. And nobody is forced to use this authentic-option, if they don't want to.
    Codemasters already put the real wheel rotation-option into to game for those who want to use it, so only the correct type of transmission and handbrake yes/no changes are needed.

    Also of course this game is trying to simulate those Group B cars like they were taken from the actual time period. They have less tire grip than 2010s, their bump absorbing capability is bad when compared to the 2010s and if you damage the wings(read aerodynamics) they will create less downforce than 2010s (Or maybe they've less downforce even with intact bodyparts).
    The 70's cars have even less tire grip than Group B's, also shocks and aerodynamic/downforce are worse.
    In the game code 60s/70s cars have a [LOW] tire grip value, Group B/80s RWD/Group A cars have [MEDIUM]-value, and 2010s have a [HIGH] tire grip value.
    There is really no point to drive a Group B car that would feel and handle just like a modern Fiesta WRC.
    Post edited by karik134 on
  • warpengagewarpengage Member Race Engineer
    edited June 2015
    karik134 said:

    Also of course this game is trying to simulate those Group B cars like they were taken from the actual time period. They have less tire grip than 2010s, their bump absorbing capability is bad when compared to the 2010s and if you damage the wings(read aerodynamics) they will create less downforce than 2010s (Or maybe they've less downforce even with intact bodyparts).
    The 70's cars have even less tire grip than Group B's, also shocks and aerodynamic/downforce are worse.
    In the game code 60s/70s cars have a [LOW] tire grip value, Group B/80s RWD/Group A cars have [MEDIUM]-value, and 2010s have a [HIGH] tire grip value.
    There is really no point to drive a Group B car that would feel and handle just like a modern Fiesta WRC.
    I don't want the cars to be modified to that extent. I want them to have the same engine, suspension, dampers, transmission, aero etc like they had in the old days. I don't want them to be as fast as modern rally cars. I want them to be what they are with a few modern rally touches here and there, like the handbrake, the rev-light, gear-indicator etc, those little modern trinkets. I think Codemasters has it just right at the moment.
  • karik134karik134 Member New Car Smell
    edited June 2015
    karik134 said:

    Also of course this game is trying to simulate those Group B cars like they were taken from the actual time period. They have less tire grip than 2010s, their bump absorbing capability is bad when compared to the 2010s and if you damage the wings(read aerodynamics) they will create less downforce than 2010s (Or maybe they've less downforce even with intact bodyparts).
    The 70's cars have even less tire grip than Group B's, also shocks and aerodynamic/downforce are worse.
    In the game code 60s/70s cars have a [LOW] tire grip value, Group B/80s RWD/Group A cars have [MEDIUM]-value, and 2010s have a [HIGH] tire grip value.
    There is really no point to drive a Group B car that would feel and handle just like a modern Fiesta WRC.
    I don't want the cars to be modified to that extent. I want them to have the same engine, suspension, dampers, transmission, aero etc like they had in the old days. I don't want them to be as fast as modern rally cars. I want them to be what they are with a few modern rally touches here and there, like the handbrake, the rev-light, gear-indicator etc, those little modern trinkets. I think Codemasters has it just right at the moment.
    You can use handbrake and nobody is trying to take it away from you. And I don't mind having rev-light+gear indicator (but they could also be optional). As I said earlier I'm just after some correct information for handbrakes and transmissions.
  • SeeNoWeevilSeeNoWeevil Member New Car Smell
    It would be good if the transmission types were visible in game.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.