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Anyone find it ironic they're trying to push esports hard but the online mode is completely broken?

I just find it pretty strange there's this big push for esports but they won't talk about the multiplayer mode in the new game at all.
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Comments

  • LSKoneLSKone Member Wheel Nut
    Operator1 said:

    Many/most sponsored, organized, & televised eSport events do not take place over the public internet under typical gaming conditions, but instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs - so eSports are not necessarily representative of "online multiplayer" (but it's convenient marketing to let people assume they're synonymous).



    But when you see cars drifting out of corners illogically when spectating a LAN race you might as well question the whole package.
    LAN is broken as well?! Damn son...
  • Dez0808Dez0808 Member Pit Crew
    With peer to peer its only ever going to work well with up to 4 players all with good internet connections 
  • echo321echo321 Member Wheel Nut
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
  • ChromaticChromatic Member, Drivers Co-Driver
    edited July 10
    Operator1 said:
     instead under somewhat controlled conditions on local LANs

    And even under those conditions on a LAN were everything is expected to be stable it was about as stable as Theresa May's strong and stable government.

    How many different racing lines will you take 

    Originally Withyman on the old forum's 

    My YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TBCFormulae 

    Manor may be gone but the history they made lives on

  • UP100UP100 Member Race Engineer
    echo321 said:
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
    Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
  • speeddemon8021speeddemon8021 Member Team Principal
    UP100 said:
    echo321 said:
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
    Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
    So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.
  • echo321echo321 Member Wheel Nut
    UP100 said:
    echo321 said:
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
    Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
    So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.
    well, there are just too many people that think that peer-to-peer=a lot of lag, and server=no lag.
    This is just wrong and people won't believe it because they can name examples where it is that way. Maybe some people don't know what peer to peer is/means. 
    If the netcode is good, peer to peer will always have lower ping. 
    Some other people don't know what things can have influence on lag. One very big thing is pure speed. The faster you go, the higher the lag. Just do the maths. For example: 50miliseconds ping when driving at 300kmph. That makes a natural desync of over 4 meters. And there is nothing you can do about it. You would have to replace the peoples cars by AI's that try to estimate where the other players will be in 50ms. How the hell should the AI know now what the players are going to do in 50ms? It would cause even more lag/cars teleporting. 
    CM just needs to improve the netcode and things will be fine...

  • Dez0808Dez0808 Member Pit Crew
    Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them
  • LSKoneLSKone Member Wheel Nut
    Dez0808 said:
    Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them
    Yes, exactly. This is very important!

    P2P connections aren't generally bad, but there are genres where it makes sense to use them, like slow-paced or turn-based games, or it doesn't, like in fast-paced games where you need the best possible connection.

    echo321 said:


    If the netcode is good, peer to peer will always have lower ping. 
    In theory, yes absolutely! In practice, hell no!
    Or have you ever seen a (racing) game that performs better with p2p connections than with a dedicated-server structure? In my 22 years of being a gamer, I certainly haven't. 


    echo321 said:


    CM just needs to improve the netcode and things will be fine...
    Maybe better, but not 'fine'.


    Actually, I am tired of this p2p discussion.
    People also constantly forget that p2p connections rely on a client to host the game, which leads to additional load (and, therefore, possibly more lag) on the host's rig.
    Let's just stop defending F1's use of p2p connections already mkay…?

  • Akkan74Akkan74 Member Wheel Nut
    I think with esports growing up more and more in the future, CM will work on a more stable online experience. Maybe not for 2018 but we will see.
    If they claim they are a small studio, they could go a similar road like mmorpg's. Maybe you could have both. Buy the game and use p2p like it is, or use a dedicated server structure for a monthly or yearly amount. We will see.
  • Operator1Operator1 Member, Drivers Champion
    edited July 10

    UP100 said:
    echo321 said:
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
    Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)

    So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff


    ^ Amen.




    *Disclaimer: my comments are only my own musings, not 
    'stating opinions as facts' or 'speaking for others.'
    #NeverPreOrder. It's outrageous that consumers have to BEG game companies to make games that reliably function properly. Consumers do NOT buy video games to waste their recreational time doing the unpaid work of paid professional testers. It's nonsense to imply game companies have no obligation to deliver games of consistently reliable functional quality just because "it's not easy & nothing is perfect & you can't please everybody." Company decision-makers listen to consumer spending, not consumer feedback; they don't care if it works properly as long as it SELLS, and every purchase is a vote of approval that helps fund more of the same. Money talks louder than requests & complaints. #VoteWithYourWallet

  • Operator1Operator1 Member, Drivers Champion

    Dez0808 said:
    Correct me if I am wrong but the issue with peer to peer is all it takes is one person with bad connection and everyone in the game is effected. With servers that person with bad connection only effects peoples interaction with them

    Even on dedicated servers, one person with a bad connection can be lag-skipping all over the place, affecting outcomes for all other players in the match.

    Contrary to popular belief, the server model is not the sole determinant of the quality of a game's multiplayer experience: there have been P2P games that were great online & P2P games that were awful online, and there have also been dedicated-server-based games that were great online along with dedicated-server-based games that were awful online. P2P games with great netcode can work wonderfully, and dedicated-server-based games with awful netcode can be terrible. It's a red herring argument often used to derail discussions by trying to convince people that quality multiplayer is utterly impossible without dedicated servers.



    *Disclaimer: my comments are only my own musings, not 
    'stating opinions as facts' or 'speaking for others.'
    #NeverPreOrder. It's outrageous that consumers have to BEG game companies to make games that reliably function properly. Consumers do NOT buy video games to waste their recreational time doing the unpaid work of paid professional testers. It's nonsense to imply game companies have no obligation to deliver games of consistently reliable functional quality just because "it's not easy & nothing is perfect & you can't please everybody." Company decision-makers listen to consumer spending, not consumer feedback; they don't care if it works properly as long as it SELLS, and every purchase is a vote of approval that helps fund more of the same. Money talks louder than requests & complaints. #VoteWithYourWallet

  • UP100UP100 Member Race Engineer
    UP100 said:
    echo321 said:
    peer to peer is not the problem, the amount of data stays the same. The netcode is just  ....well..... not that good...
    Well many peer to peer games have VERY similiar issues. I had a list somewhere on these forums, but I'll just quickly throw some games. Space/Medieval Engineers, GTA IV/EFLC, Civilization V/VI, Terraria, Payday 2, most ubisoft games (They even have the money for actual servers...), Total War Rome II, Company Of Heroes 2 (I think?)
    So your argument is what exactly? It’s ok for this game to be bad because other games are bad! I’m sick of hearing that kinda stuff,equally many games that rely on a P2P connection have no problems at all.
    When did I say it's fine? Just get me a P2P game that won't become unplayable if one player has a bad performance. This is a major issue in every P2P game I have seen. My point would be to get another system that can be used in league races for example community owned dedicated servers (like what SE / ME do)
  • echo321echo321 Member Wheel Nut
    If someone has a bad connection on peer to peer, he will also have a bad connection on server based connection. Having a server calculatiing and doublechecking all moves will make things even worse with people that have a bad connection. 
    Just think of following: You are followed by a guy with bad connection, you come into a heavy braking zone like for example Monza turn 1. Just as the car behind comes to the braking zone he get a lag spike. Now what happens? The person behind can brake as much as he wants, the server will not register it, so it will NOT slow down his car. Dependent on ho it's coded, his car will continue with the latest input, which is full throttle, or it will go with no input and just roll straight on. So no matter what, his car will come very fast closer to you as it can't brake. Even if the server gets connection back to that player before his car hits you, it will not safe you from geting taken out, as the input  the player did while that spike is not being updated. So all you will see is that the car behind just takes you out braking wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to late. 
    With peer to peer, in this situation, you would not get taken out because ass soon as you get the connection back, the car behind will get the updated position from his pov. He will just lag backwards on your screen, but not hit you. 
  • speeddemon8021speeddemon8021 Member Team Principal
    echo321 said:
    If someone has a bad connection on peer to peer, he will also have a bad connection on server based connection. Having a server calculatiing and doublechecking all moves will make things even worse with people that have a bad connection. 
    Just think of following: You are followed by a guy with bad connection, you come into a heavy braking zone like for example Monza turn 1. Just as the car behind comes to the braking zone he get a lag spike. Now what happens? The person behind can brake as much as he wants, the server will not register it, so it will NOT slow down his car. Dependent on ho it's coded, his car will continue with the latest input, which is full throttle, or it will go with no input and just roll straight on. So no matter what, his car will come very fast closer to you as it can't brake. Even if the server gets connection back to that player before his car hits you, it will not safe you from geting taken out, as the input  the player did while that spike is not being updated. So all you will see is that the car behind just takes you out braking wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to late. 
    With peer to peer, in this situation, you would not get taken out because ass soon as you get the connection back, the car behind will get the updated position from his pov. He will just lag backwards on your screen, but not hit you. 
    Ok so dedicated servers are satan’s Spawn and P2P is the greatest thing since sliced bread cool,but what about in a league racing scenario where certainly in the leagues I take part in your asked to do a ping test and everyone is known to have a good connection and we do numerous test races to find the absolute best host yet there are still incidents of lag and weird lag bubble crashes what say you then? That’s just poor net code not P2P and there in lies the answer to all our woes a better base off which to work,a better netcode.
  • Dez0808Dez0808 Member Pit Crew
    From my understanding the problem is the small amount of lag each player will have on p2p will add up to effect every player in the race. No one will ever have 0 ping so there is always lag no matter how good your connection is. If you times this by 22 players you get lag that effects every player in the game. If you add 1 player with a bad connection then even more lag is added to the game. For example you have 3 players A B and C. A and B have a really good connection. C has a bad connection. On p2p everyone has issues with lag. A and B see each other skipping or lagging as much as they see C.
    With servers A and B would be able to play without any issues and would see each other moving correctly. C would see A and B jumping around as well and A and B seeing C jumping around. So servers are better as everyone but the people with bad connections are not effected as much. I understand it doesn't 100% work like this but the general rule is correct. 
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