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2018 Italiano Grazie Ragazzi Grande Lavorro Prix

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  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    Still plenty of races to go with Ferrari having a pretty obvious advantage car-wise, nothing decided yet @Jiggy. But we all know Vettel should be leading this WDC by 30-40 pts at this stage.
    I get your POV and I don't even disagree with it. I simply doubt Vettel has that ice in his veins to take the most of the advantages he has over Hamilton in the end. He's not ruthless like that. I'm judging purely by character now. It's like how I wasn't convinced by Rosberg until he literally abandoned his pregnant wife for the sake of beating Hamilton. I don't see that level of dedication and clutchness and insanity from Vettel. I can't rate a guy's credentials to win the title if he goes off at his home GP and then taps his title rival and ends up spinning himself in the Italian GP as a Ferrari-driver. It's weak.

    Don't mind me though, that's my own slightly warped view on what a driver/champion is made of. That doesn't happen to a true champion. So I'm assuming Vettel will end up bottling it, even if he does come back in this title race. And unless Hamilton loses his marbles and bottles it himself, I'd think that Vettel winning the WDC would be undeserved at this point, as Hamilton is superior and dominant.

    About Rosberg, I'd like to say that, although it does look fishy, I'd also assume that he needs the paycheck and that showing up to races for analysis is nowhere near as time-consuming as being involved with a GP-team almost 24/7 (testing, simulation, promotional work, GP-weekends, etc.) and him being there every GP-weekend is basically just those days and he's at home with his family for the rest of the week. That's my assumption though, no idea how his schedule looks like. But it also means that I don't think his current activities is making his reasoning for leaving F1 as a driver less legit.
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    Like Jiggy said, the effort going to races to be a pundit compared to racing are worlds apart. 

    But I'd imagine that if Rosberg had Ericsson as a teammate and was virtually guaranteed to win the title, he'd have stayed. Can't say I blame him for leaving, I imagine he wanted to leave on a high rather than leaving in 2019 or 2020 having been beaten by Lewis for a few more years. He's not stupid, he knows Hamilton is just better.
    | 2016 CM Forum Predictor Game Champion! |
    | Manchester United |  Sebastian Vettel #5 | Kimi Raikkonen #7 |
     



  • MBKF1MBKF1 Member Moderator
    Bottachello, I like that, that's gonna stick :p 

    Brilliant race! I was out all weekend so only managed to watch it at about 10pm last night, but what a superb battle for the lead! He was hunting, hunting, hunting, and then he pounced!

    I should be pleased as a Hamilton fan because Vettel lost a load of points, but I'm genuinely more disappointed. I want a good close battle for the rest of the season but Vettel keeps bottling it under the pressure and giving it to Hamilton.

    I feel like on their best days, Vettel and Hamilton are really closely matched, but on their worst days, Vettel just really makes it tougher for himself...

    Also I've realised, for definite now, that I do not support Max Verstappen.
    MBKF1 | Community Moderator | Please be aware that I don't do much actual moderating
  • GoldenColtGoldenColt Member Champion
    edited September 3
    MBKF1 said:
    Bottachello, I like that, that's gonna stick :p 

    Brilliant race! I was out all weekend so only managed to watch it at about 10pm last night, but what a superb battle for the lead! He was hunting, hunting, hunting, and then he pounced!

    I should be pleased as a Hamilton fan because Vettel lost a load of points, but I'm genuinely more disappointed. I want a good close battle for the rest of the season but Vettel keeps bottling it under the pressure and giving it to Hamilton.

    I feel like on their best days, Vettel and Hamilton are really closely matched, but on their worst days, Vettel just really makes it tougher for himself...

    Also I've realised, for definite now, that I do not support Max Verstappen.
    Careful what you wish for, Vettel is still favorite for this WDC in my book. Apart from maybe Suzuka, I just can't see where Mercedes will have the upper hand to Ferrari this season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. As for Vettel's mistakes, he almost bottled 2 of his 4 WDCs, so it's not exactly a new weakness of his to make crucial errors. It's the fact that he lucked into his 1st WDC and barely brought the 3rd one over the line, surviving that mighty crash with Senna which he himself caused, that put a lid on how prone to mistakes he really is. He continued making silly mistakes in 2016 and 2017. 2018 so far has been a new low in this respect. But as we've seen in 2010 and - to a lesser degree - in 2012, that doesn't mean it's over for him.

    Regarding this weekend: Is it just me or did Vettel's whole demeanour change on saturday? I think that's because it was that day when it became clear that Kimi won't be allowed to stay for another year. Vettel might find himself outside the comfort zone he loves and needs so much from 2019 onwards. Having an old, way past his prime, washed up teammate who is a clear #2 was his old schtick. While I don't think Leclerc will be another Ricciardo to Vettel, he is still a much younger guy, hungry to prove himself and eager to take the fight to the established 4xWDC. And you know what: Maybe Ferrari are slowly but surely realizing that the Michael Schumacher approach might not work to their advantage these days anymore. Kimi Raikkonen is too average and passive to be a threat for Lewis more often than not, their car is the best but not by the kind of margin needed to give Vettel the comfort zone he needs and the quality of their rival drivers is also way above the likes Michael had to go up against during his prime. Time to bring in some fresh blood with new ideas. Maybe it will spur Vettel on to improve his own driving skills, because quite frankly, out of all the top guys he's the one who has regressed quite a bit in that regard.
  • HughesyHughesy Member Champion
    VetteIfan said:
    Also (sorry for the double post but I felt this deserved its own) I'm starting to form a similar level of opinion about Rosberg as I think most Lewis fans did for the last 5 years. After saying he wanted to retire because he's achieved his goal and he wants to chase new ventures, he's now at the F1 every weekend. Often doing 'analysis' for Sky F1, and talking about what it takes to beat Lewis like he's some sort of authority on the matter because he did it once in extremely fortunate circumstances after getting destroyed for pretty much the whole 3 years.

    You can't take his title away from him but I'm now fully convinced he did just retire because he didn't want to face Lewis again, and now he just gets to talk about how great he was to beat Lewis for eternity. I can understand Lewis' resentment towards him for that because uninformed fans might actually begin to take that as fact as the years roll by. But it definitely puts a shadow on Nico's character imo.
    Ahh Mr @VetteIfan we've been expecting you, welcome to the dark side.
  • couger1981couger1981 Member Race Engineer
    If Hamilton wins at Singapore then it will be a big battle for Vettel to win the championship, Vettel will need to win the next two to get back equal with Hamilton.

    Russia will be hard for Ferrari as Mercedes won in 2016/17.
    Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull Racing 2018
    Member since 2011
    RIP Bianchi
    The Future is Now!





  • MBKF1MBKF1 Member Moderator
    MBKF1 said:
    I should be pleased as a Hamilton fan because Vettel lost a load of points, but I'm genuinely more disappointed. I want a good close battle for the rest of the season but Vettel keeps bottling it under the pressure and giving it to Hamilton.
    Careful what you wish for, Vettel is still favorite for this WDC in my book. Apart from maybe Suzuka, I just can't see where Mercedes will have the upper hand to Ferrari this season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. As for Vettel's mistakes, he almost bottled 2 of his 4 WDCs, so it's not exactly a new weakness of his to make crucial errors. It's the fact that he lucked into his 1st WDC and barely brought the 3rd one over the line, surviving that mighty crash with Senna which he himself caused, that put a lid on how prone to mistakes he really is. He continued making silly mistakes in 2016 and 2017. 2018 so far has been a new low in this respect. But as we've seen in 2010 and - to a lesser degree - in 2012, that doesn't mean it's over for him.

    Regarding this weekend: Is it just me or did Vettel's whole demeanour change on saturday? I think that's because it was that day when it became clear that Kimi won't be allowed to stay for another year. Vettel might find himself outside the comfort zone he loves and needs so much from 2019 onwards. Having an old, way past his prime, washed up teammate who is a clear #2 was his old schtick. While I don't think Leclerc will be another Ricciardo to Vettel, he is still a much younger guy, hungry to prove himself and eager to take the fight to the established 4xWDC. 
    I agree that Vettel and Ferrari is a faster package right now than Hamilton and Mercedes (if Vettel didn't spin in Italy, I expect he would've got back past Hamilton and won the race), but I just get the feeling that Hamilton will still close out the year with the championship. I know 30 points has been clawed back in the past with this many races to go, but Hamilton has been driving so well all year, it's going to take something out of his control to stop him I feel.

    I really hope Ferrari go bold and take Leclerc. Raikkonen is no slouch but he hasn't got the touch in the races any more. I hope Leclerc can do what Ricciardo did when he arrived and shock everyone. I'm not expecting Leclerc to do that, but at the same time, who on earth could've predicted Ricciardo would've thrashed the defending x4 world champion? There's no reason why Leclerc can't do the same.
    MBKF1 | Community Moderator | Please be aware that I don't do much actual moderating
  • JensonBottomJensonBottom Member Co-Driver
    I don't think the championship is over just yet. There's a reasonably realistic chance Hamilton could end 5th behind the Red Bulls at Singapore going by how poor Mercedes has been there the past few years which would cut his lead to 15 points and game back on. Of course the Renault engines will probably just blow up but hey ho.
    Otherwise known as TomM_F1 and AquaF1.
  • VetteIfanVetteIfan Member Race Engineer
    edited September 4
    Careful what you wish for, Vettel is still favorite for this WDC in my book. Apart from maybe Suzuka, I just can't see where Mercedes will have the upper hand to Ferrari this season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. As for Vettel's mistakes, he almost bottled 2 of his 4 WDCs, so it's not exactly a new weakness of his to make crucial errors. It's the fact that he lucked into his 1st WDC and barely brought the 3rd one over the line, surviving that mighty crash with Senna which he himself caused, that put a lid on how prone to mistakes he really is. He continued making silly mistakes in 2016 and 2017. 2018 so far has been a new low in this respect. But as we've seen in 2010 and - to a lesser degree - in 2012, that doesn't mean it's over for him.

    Regarding this weekend: Is it just me or did Vettel's whole demeanour change on saturday? I think that's because it was that day when it became clear that Kimi won't be allowed to stay for another year. Vettel might find himself outside the comfort zone he loves and needs so much from 2019 onwards. Having an old, way past his prime, washed up teammate who is a clear #2 was his old schtick. While I don't think Leclerc will be another Ricciardo to Vettel, he is still a much younger guy, hungry to prove himself and eager to take the fight to the established 4xWDC. And you know what: Maybe Ferrari are slowly but surely realizing that the Michael Schumacher approach might not work to their advantage these days anymore. Kimi Raikkonen is too average and passive to be a threat for Lewis more often than not, their car is the best but not by the kind of margin needed to give Vettel the comfort zone he needs and the quality of their rival drivers is also way above the likes Michael had to go up against during his prime. Time to bring in some fresh blood with new ideas. Maybe it will spur Vettel on to improve his own driving skills, because quite frankly, out of all the top guys he's the one who has regressed quite a bit in that regard.
    Vettel had 3 wins robbed from him due to reliability in 2010 and yet he was the one who lucked in to the title? He had a messy year (as did all the title contenders) but it wouldn't have even been a title fight had his RB6 been as reliable as Webber's. One strategy mistake from Ferrari doesn't make up for that. 

    I'd agree fortune smiled on him in Brazil 2012, but in a season where he was consistent and got involved in very little contact overall. I can allow him that one.

    Also one more thing - if Vettel is this mistake prone driver you don't fear too much, then how is he the title favourite from 30 points back? Surely aren't you convinced he'll make another mistake? I feel you're just covering yourself just in case things do go all wrong for Hamilton in the next 7 races :p 

    But what I really wanted to address: I agree with some parts of your conclusion on Ferrari. I don't think the Schumacher setup is wrong, I just think the personnel is. As I said before Todt and Brawn knew the rules that need to be imposed to win a championship and it got them through even when times were tough in the likes of 2003. But as far as this team goes, some outlets reported Raikkonen has a clause in his contract that team orders can not be imposed if he gets pole (!!!). Unreal. I guess that means if Kimi gets pole in Abu Dhabi he'll be fighting for the win even if Vettel has a chance at the title. Wow.

    Kimi himself though fits in to that equation of the personnel not being good enough. I love Kimi but if he can't win in this car with Vettel completely out of the picture then it will never benefit anyone. Webber/Barrichello/Bottas are the perfect driver for that secondary role, in that respect.

    Leclerc is a no win scenario for Vettel from a legacy pov. If he wins, it was only Leclerc. If he loses, then he lost to a 21 year old in his second season. I've already seen fans start to undervalue Leclerc now it seems he'll get the Ferrari seat, seemingly so it can fit a narrative for whatever happens next season. But it doesn't matter because it does need to happen. Whether he ends up being a match for Vettel or a better version of a number 2, either of those scenarios will give them a better chance at both titles than they have now. 

    @MBKF1 I can't claim credit for Bottachello but I like it too :p Rolls off the tongue nicely
  • VetteIfanVetteIfan Member Race Engineer
    Jiggy said:
    I get your POV and I don't even disagree with it. I simply doubt Vettel has that ice in his veins to take the most of the advantages he has over Hamilton in the end. He's not ruthless like that. I'm judging purely by character now. It's like how I wasn't convinced by Rosberg until he literally abandoned his pregnant wife for the sake of beating Hamilton. I don't see that level of dedication and clutchness and insanity from Vettel. I can't rate a guy's credentials to win the title if he goes off at his home GP and then taps his title rival and ends up spinning himself in the Italian GP as a Ferrari-driver. It's weak.

    Don't mind me though, that's my own slightly warped view on what a driver/champion is made of. That doesn't happen to a true champion. So I'm assuming Vettel will end up bottling it, even if he does come back in this title race. And unless Hamilton loses his marbles and bottles it himself, I'd think that Vettel winning the WDC would be undeserved at this point, as Hamilton is superior and dominant.
    I share this same warped view. But in this respect I don't think Vettel's got a problem at all, we've seen some very obvious instances in the past that he'll do practically anything to win or gain a competitive advantage and also some less obvious ones.

    One story I particularly liked was the one which said back in the Red Bull days he made Hanna (girlfriend) sit in the grandstands when she wanted to attend races because he didn't want to be distracted by anything in the garage. A fact even Ron Dennis admired very much when he heard about it IIRC.

    Mark Webber was also once quoted as saying he's never seen someone lose it like Vettel has before behind the scenes when things didn't go his way. He even threatened to sue Red Bull over multi 21 for being in breach of his his contract to give him team orders.

    And I'm not saying all these things are particularly constructive (and there are also some more positive stories like the 2011 trip to Pirelli etc). But if this doesn't sound like someone who's ruthless, dedicated and committed to winning to the point of insanity I don't know what is. You have to have been to reach 52 wins (and counting) in your career
  • LukedfrtLukedfrt Member Petrol Head
    This thread is a very good read! Bravo everyone involved :star:

    Going back to Bottas (And Raikkonen).. obviously they're both there because they're both very good #2 drivers, but it's so gutting to think Alonso is leaving and Ricciardo can only get a drive with Renault. whilst they continue to waste the 2 top drives in the sport. Imagine how awesome this season would be with Alonso & Hamilton at Mercedes and Vettel & Ricciardo at Ferrari :weary:
    BCFC - KEEP RIGHT ON!!! 
    The best ever - Alonso #14
  • GoldenColtGoldenColt Member Champion
    edited September 4
    @ Seb

    A couple of things I want to address: Yes, Vettel had a considerable amount of bad luck back in 2010 (was that really 8 years ago?). However, the amount of points he threw away due to silly mistakes should not be forgotten. He could have won that particular WDC before Abu Dhabi despite his misfortunes by collecting the points lost in Turkey, Hungary, Belgium and Singapore. Hence my point as to why he lucked into his 1st championship.

    Regarding 2012, Brazil wasn't the only race he could have or actually did cost himself a considerable amount of points. Remember his completely unnecessary clash with Karthikeyan in Malaysia, when once again, Seb just closed the door expecting the guy behind to vanish into thin air somehow (a not so uncommon thing with him). Then there was the drive through in Spain for having DRS open during a yellow-flag period. Not to mention the illegal overtake on JB in Germany. His mistakes during the Abu Dhabi GP reached a comical level, only to be outdone by the equally comical level of luck which flushed him onto the podium. Yes, with the rotten reliability and team performance McLaren had that season and the Ferrari being anything but a championship-winning car, he really should have closed the deal earlier and in a more convincing manner that season.

    In regards to me "fearing" Vettel, can you point to me where exactly I claimed such a thing? I think I made it very clear that it's the competitiveness of his car I fear for the remaining races. Do I feel like he is going to continue his run of mistakes? No, because I would expect him to produce a clean last third of the season. Anything else wouldn't be worthy of a decent F1 driver with a modest record, let alone a 4xWDC with the same win-tally as a certain Alain Prost.



    Post edited by GoldenColt on
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    edited September 4
    To be fair that Belgium race in 2010 was full of errors for the top guys, Alonso crashed, Vettel had one of his worst races I've watched, Hamilton nearly binned it in the fashion Vettel did at Hockenheim. 

    Every driver in 2010 made mistakes, and with the final standings being so close it makes it all the better looking back at these little things that changed so much! 

    And in regards to this season's Ferrari, whilst it has a small advantage, I don't think it matters much. Hamilton is able to beat Raikkonen easily almost every week. It seems unlikely that Vettel will win every race left, heck it seems unlikely Ferrari will even secure a couple of 1-2 finishes imo. 
    It is in the hands of Lewis now, he just needs to keep doing what he has done all season long and it will be hard for Vettel to win. Keep focused and consistent. 

    If somehow Vettel manages to win 5 or 6 races and the title, then I think he will have redeemed himself. But I suspect he will only manage 3 or 4 wins out of 7 and then 2 or 3 for Hamilton. Wet races probably = Lewis win as well.

    Vettel is due a car failure too. It's going to be really tough, but whichever way it goes, let's hope for the sake of F1 that it's a close one.
    | 2016 CM Forum Predictor Game Champion! |
    | Manchester United |  Sebastian Vettel #5 | Kimi Raikkonen #7 |
     



  • VetteIfanVetteIfan Member Race Engineer
    edited September 6
    @ Dan 

    That still doesn't make much sense to me. Alonso, Hamilton and Webber all made mistakes in 2010 that cost them the title in the end, but because Vettel also made mistakes and didn't win the title before the final race he lucked in to it? That's what I'm reading your argument as and I can't understand the reasoning.

    On Malaysia 2012, I still can't work out what people see in that incident that still convince them that was Vettel's fault. Maybe just because the commentators thought it at the time. But the HRT went wide, Vettel went past and the head on view showed Karthikeyan decided to veer back on to the racing line and in to Seb's rear tyre. The stewards also came to the same verdict with the many more camera views they had. The stewards can sometimes be suspect, but I side with their opinion on that one. 

    Spain and Germany, sure. Worth pointing out in both those instances that they were the first incidents of their kind actually penalised in this generation. Martin Brundle's first reaction to the Germany one was that he's seen the exact same thing happen multiple times throughout the years in all kinds of series, but that was actually the move that really started the whole track limits debate in F1. So a bit unfortunate. But I digress, the crucial information is these incidents cost him a likely combined 7 points, not particularly life changing.

    Abu Dhabi 2012, well I mean if he'd not had the bad luck of being sent to the back of the grid in the first place he'd have probably won the race and then the title would have indeed been over before the final race. As it happened the SC timing helped him overtake Button and win 3 more points - which proved to not make a difference in the end.

    So overall not exactly the stuff of nightmares. Small mistakes with very small consequences. In fact there's people out there who believe Alonso is more at fault for the first corner of Suzuka that year than Raikkonen, so it could be argued Alonso lost more points due to his 'mistakes' that season than Vettel. I'll leave that down to your perception though.

    I actually believe 2012 was the second best year of Vettel's career (that means ahead of 2011 and 2015). It's often lumped in to the category of "Vettel domination years" but much of that year was a lottery as I'm sure you recall well. This is what enabled Alonso fight for the title in 2012, because there was never one team on top for very long (and also the F2012 was not as bad a car as it was made out to be - super reliable, strong pace in races and even Massa got his head round it eventually and started out qualifying Alonso and scoring podiums towards the end of the season). Obviously it's to Alonso's credit that he was the constant in the title battle that year and I'm by no means saying Alonso didn't have a really great season, but Vettel did too and he won that title through consistency when he was fighting for lower points placings and then taking the fullest advantage he could at the times when the Red Bull had the best car.

    For other reference Webber finished 6th that year. By far his worst performance relative to Seb in terms of WDC position while they were teammates. Also scored the same amount of podiums between Germany and Brazil (11 races) as Massa. The RB8 was not cut from the same cloth as the other Red Bull title winners.

    And on the final point, you may need to re-read what I put because I never said you feared Vettel. I said the opposite actually. I asked that given your lack of fear in Vettel's abilities what makes him title favourite. But anyway, you have made that clear now. I'm not so confident in the performance advantage you think Ferrari has, especially given how it was the only car that chewed its tyres to pieces in Monza. But we'll see.

    P.S It is pretty amazing that 2010 was now 8 years ago and even more amazing that we're still debating the same things :p Maybe in the next generation after Vettel and Hamilton retire we'll end up supporting the same driver and we'll end up agreeing about things. That's a weird concept to consider. 
  • GoldenColtGoldenColt Member Champion
    edited September 7
    I see we're going back to the good old days of writing whole essays about Vettel. ;)

    Yes, all championship contenders made mistakes in 2010, but Vettel had the best car of them all plus a #1 status at RB, something neither McLaren driver had for example. He really should have closed that deal before the last race IMO.

    Malaysia 2012: I stick to my previous statement, Vettel moved back on his racing line in a manner which was not entirely safe and he paid the price for that. 

    As for Abu Dhabi 2012, if we are going to discount bad luck on Vettel's side, we should do the same with Lewis as he was super-competitive that entire weekend and would have most probably won that race had it not been for yet another car-failure. I can agree with the rest of your statement regarding 2012, other than the fact that I would put 2011 ahead. Sebastian was a lethal weapon in 2011, with almost no off-weekends/races (Canada was embarassing though, as was his entire German GP performance as I'm sure you still remember vividly ;)).

    Last but not least, how boring would it be if we agreed on a future driver to support? I'd rather argue with you about how much your driver sucks and how little a chance he would have driving the same car as my favourite driver. Just like in the good old days in early 2011. :p
  • JiggyJiggy Member Petrol Head
    VetteIfan said:
    Jiggy said:
    I get your POV and I don't even disagree with it. I simply doubt Vettel has that ice in his veins to take the most of the advantages he has over Hamilton in the end. He's not ruthless like that. I'm judging purely by character now. It's like how I wasn't convinced by Rosberg until he literally abandoned his pregnant wife for the sake of beating Hamilton. I don't see that level of dedication and clutchness and insanity from Vettel. I can't rate a guy's credentials to win the title if he goes off at his home GP and then taps his title rival and ends up spinning himself in the Italian GP as a Ferrari-driver. It's weak.

    Don't mind me though, that's my own slightly warped view on what a driver/champion is made of. That doesn't happen to a true champion. So I'm assuming Vettel will end up bottling it, even if he does come back in this title race. And unless Hamilton loses his marbles and bottles it himself, I'd think that Vettel winning the WDC would be undeserved at this point, as Hamilton is superior and dominant.
    I share this same warped view. But in this respect I don't think Vettel's got a problem at all, we've seen some very obvious instances in the past that he'll do practically anything to win or gain a competitive advantage and also some less obvious ones.

    One story I particularly liked was the one which said back in the Red Bull days he made Hanna (girlfriend) sit in the grandstands when she wanted to attend races because he didn't want to be distracted by anything in the garage. A fact even Ron Dennis admired very much when he heard about it IIRC.

    Mark Webber was also once quoted as saying he's never seen someone lose it like Vettel has before behind the scenes when things didn't go his way. He even threatened to sue Red Bull over multi 21 for being in breach of his his contract to give him team orders.

    And I'm not saying all these things are particularly constructive (and there are also some more positive stories like the 2011 trip to Pirelli etc). But if this doesn't sound like someone who's ruthless, dedicated and committed to winning to the point of insanity I don't know what is. You have to have been to reach 52 wins (and counting) in your career
    It does sound insane and some of the examples are impressive. I can't really bring much against it, as I was being very subjective. It's hard to really back it with arguments. So at this point, I'm just saying what I feel the situation is, I think Vettel is losing it and can't turn that insanity into dominance over the enemy. I feel like he's going to self-destruct. Rosberg became a maniacally consistent super-driver when he had the edge. Schumacher ran people off the road to win the title. I feel like if it was Schumacher vs. Hamilton in that corner, Hamilton would've been the one to be spun around.

    Well, maybe not. I did just say I rate Hamilton almost as high as I do Schumacher.

    Basically, Vettel needs to strike against Hamilton and find success in his strike for me to have faith in him again.

    -----
    I also saw some Leclerc-talk. I don't know how likely it is that he joins Ferrari, but if Charles Leclerc joins Ferrari, I'll go out of a limp and claim he'll win the title immediately. He might have the impact in that tier of the F1-grid that Marc Marquez had when joining MotoGP. Leclerc might rule over everybody. His talent and ability to adapt seems almost limitless, it's frightening how quick he is. I also think that Pierre Gasly, who has really proven me wrong this season, can rival Max Verstappen and that on a good day, Verstappen/Gasly is the absolute quickest driver pairing in raw speed on the grid.
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    edited September 7
    I see we're going back to the good old days of writing whole essays about Vettel. ;)

    Yes, all championship contenders made mistakes in 2010, but Vettel had the best car of them all plus a #1 status at RB, something neither McLaren driver had for example. He really should have closed that deal before the last race IMO.

    Malaysia 2012: I stick to my previous statement, Vettel moved back on his racing line in a manner which was not entirely safe and he paid the price for that. 

    As for Abu Dhabi 2012, if we are going to discount bad luck on Vettel's side, we should do the same with Lewis as he was super-competitive that entire weekend and would have most probably won that race had it not been for yet another car-failure. I can agree with the rest of your statement regarding 2012, other than the fact that I would put 2011 ahead. Sebastian was a lethal weapon in 2011, with almost no off-weekends/races (Canada was embarassing though, as was his entire German GP performance as I'm sure you still remember vividly ;)).

    Last but not least, how boring would it be if we agreed on a future driver to support? I'd rather argue with you about how much your driver sucks and how little a chance he would have driving the same car as my favourite driver. Just like in the good old days in early 2011. :p
    Since when? 
    | 2016 CM Forum Predictor Game Champion! |
    | Manchester United |  Sebastian Vettel #5 | Kimi Raikkonen #7 |
     



  • GoldenColtGoldenColt Member Champion
    AMS97KRR said:
    I see we're going back to the good old days of writing whole essays about Vettel. ;)

    Yes, all championship contenders made mistakes in 2010, but Vettel had the best car of them all plus a #1 status at RB, something neither McLaren driver had for example. He really should have closed that deal before the last race IMO.

    Malaysia 2012: I stick to my previous statement, Vettel moved back on his racing line in a manner which was not entirely safe and he paid the price for that. 

    As for Abu Dhabi 2012, if we are going to discount bad luck on Vettel's side, we should do the same with Lewis as he was super-competitive that entire weekend and would have most probably won that race had it not been for yet another car-failure. I can agree with the rest of your statement regarding 2012, other than the fact that I would put 2011 ahead. Sebastian was a lethal weapon in 2011, with almost no off-weekends/races (Canada was embarassing though, as was his entire German GP performance as I'm sure you still remember vividly ;)).

    Last but not least, how boring would it be if we agreed on a future driver to support? I'd rather argue with you about how much your driver sucks and how little a chance he would have driving the same car as my favourite driver. Just like in the good old days in early 2011. :p
    Since when? 
    2010. Source: Mark Webber's book. He also mentions that throughout 2010 Vettel would be the one getting engine preference, with the more powerful ones on the dyno going to his pool. Not to mention the obvious bias towards Vettel after Turkey 2010, with Marko laying the blame firmly on Mark's doorstep.
  • AMS97KRRAMS97KRR Member Race Engineer
    edited September 10
    I wouldn't disagree with the idea that Vettel often had a certain level of preference, but "Number 1 driver" goes a bit far in my view. Red Bull still employed team orders against Vettel in 2013 for example.

    Webber was allowed to win races and compete for the title so I don't think it's the same as we saw with Barrichello or even Bottas/Raikkonen to a lesser extent. And I might be misremembering but I can't recall Webber ever being put on sub-optimal strategies purely to benefit Vettel on a regular basis.

    What happened in Turkey 2010 was somewhat unfair towards Webber but I can fully understand why they sided with Vettel. Red Bull may also have believed that Webber should have conceded more easily for the good of the team, but I don't blame Webber at all for not doing it.

    Edit: Oh and Helmut Marko is a ***** anyway, so that's to be expected. 


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  • fIsince08fIsince08 Member Moderator
    Silverstone 2010, Webber had the new front wing (worth 1 tenth of a second) taken off him before qualifying. He then lost pole to Vettel by... 1 tenth. I

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