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Posts posted by JZStudios

  1. 7 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    The Forza PI system's been exploitable for about a decade; every game seems to have a "trick build" in order to get better performance for the same score.

    • In Forza Motorsport 3 it was All-Wheel-Drive
    • In Forza Motorsport 4 it was stock gearboxes and Rear-Wheel Drive (the most dominant car in Forza history was a RWD-swapped Chevrolet Spark)
    • In Forza Motorsport 6 it was weight and tyre compound
    • In Forza Motorsport 7 it was aero

    Doesn't matter for the majority of players, but for those that wanted to extract the best performance you had to build a car in a fairly specific way.

    Huh. I almost always kept things pretty stock, but with how little grip even the race tires have and how much AWB cars understeer, I could buy that. Though it's inconsistent, some RWD cars drive pretty well, while others like the Camaro and some Holden just wheelspin incessantly, impossible to drive. I just went for weight and tires to try and counter the understeer. Another thing I noticed is whenever I was in a race with a Ferrari, it was always miles ahead of the rest of the field, keeping up with cars it should be much slower than, like the Mclaren F1.

    • Like 1
  2. Spending some more time in FM4, I've come to the conclusion the PI rating or whatever is kind of broken. At least in FM4. There's a bunch of A class cars like the Ford GT that come on "stock" tires, below even "street" tires. I'm not kidding, the car has 550hp and it's on the same tires as a Prius. And they put the PI of most of the cars so high that you can't put on reasonable tire choices because it forces you into S class. The only good solution is to upgrade a C or B class with better tires, but the tires take so much PI that you then don't have the speed to keep up on straights.

    It makes a weird "balance" where you have to divebomb the corners with better grip, or gun the straights and brake super hard before every corner.

  3. 10 hours ago, RodgerDavies said:

    I just mean, if the strategy is announcing games now for (early) 2022, why would they wait several more months to announce another game to release in Q1 2022?

    There is a possible answer for that; Grid is a single brand and the 2019 game isn't being updated, whilst Dirt as a brand serves two games one of which (Dirt5) is currently 'active'.

    But I still wouldn't expect them to overlap so much; I'm sure certain marketing assets and no doubt other team members are shared between projects. Grid and DR2 launched 9 months apart in 2022 - if something's coming next year, I'd expect at least a similar gap between them.

    Typically you don't release all of your similar franchises in the same time period. CM has always had this set so they're different niches. But Grid and NFS are... similar, and then there's presumable SMS which is also... similar. F1 is it's own niche, and Dirt logically would be an alternating bi-annual release like Forza and Horizon. Though it is seeming likely there might not be a DR3 and just go for WRC.

    Which actually then raises another question, WRC is a yearly title, like F1, so where does the mainline Dirt franchise fit into that? EA now has a lot of racing studios that all make their own games, with a few being similar. Going to be one hell of a weird schedule, or EA is going to homologate teams. Is Project Cars going to continue, or will it be folded into Grid?


    10 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    I know it's frustrating being a fan and going "well, we're waiting..." (I'm like that with the new Forza Motorsport at the moment).

    Judge Smails "Well, We're waiting" animated gif

    The only thing I've heard about Forza is that they're redoing the physics engine so now it's at a higher tick rate, and I think they're redoing the FFB. Other than that, it's been pretty silent.

    • Like 1
  4. 58 minutes ago, dgeesi0 said:

    dead space back is great news big fan brought the first one day of release on pc. still have it. 😄

    I played through about half of it on the PS3 and then found it kind of repetitive. Honestly I'm more annoyed that the death of the franchise was directly caused by EA, then shuttered the studio. Maybe the team working on the remake are ex Visceral?

  5. Oh, hey, Dead Space is getting a remake after EA killed the franchise, made the studio make Hardline, and then shuttered them. And... it's being made in Frostbite? This is unprecedented!

  6. Well just saw the trailer for Grid Legends. Looks... dumb. Gonna straight skip the story, I don't know who these companies seem to keep focus testing that makes them think racing game fans want some ridiculous overblown story. I am curious what engine it's using though.

  7. 2 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

    i find assetto corsa competionzione a understeer champion. prefer automoblista 2 tbh for tarmac.

    I haven't tried ACC, but Forza is probably on another planet entirely. There's a bunch of rear wheel drive A class cars that are borderline undriveable because the front tires lose traction with any amount of steering input, and the rear tires just incessantly spin on corners. Any time a gentle curve comes along you need to brake massively, because even at low speeds you'll understeer off the track.

    I tried to do a "quick" comparison between stock tires and race tires at Laguna Seca, but it turned into a much longer testing session than I planned for. The FFB is so vague I can't tell where the grip limit is, so I spent 10 laps trying to figure out the car and getting faster by a pretty large margin every lap, and the line was different every time. Would probably be better to just not use FFB at all I got a faster lap time with race tires, but going back to the stock tires I couldn't follow a decent line and I can't tell if that's because of the tires or because I just couldn't follow the same line like I can in every other game.

  8. In completely unrelated news, I'm watching my buddy's house/dogs while he's on vacation, and since my wheel is old enough I've been playing Forza 4 and have confirmed my long time theory that the tires are made of some hybrid between 70's ecogreen tires and wood blocks. Just did a section of the Nurburgring, part 3 of 4 starting just before the 2 tight turns, then leading up the hill to the the long sweeping right before the carousel with an M3 e90. Never in any other game, and I've played lots, have I understeered, much less ran into the outside wall, in any car. Upgrading the tires doesn't seem to actually do as much as they'd lead you to believe.

    I think the default setups for pretty much everything is also completely wrong, just doing a proper suspension setup helps drop lap times by 1.5-2 seconds while making the car massively more stable to drive, not even counting the very vague FFB that makes it near impossible to be precise with positioning. The cars on turns all have this weird buildup of assumingly weight transfer, then it breaks and lightens up, then loads up again ad nauseum. It's really weird.

    Also, Catalunya can FFFFuuudge right the hell off. Stupid track.

  9. 2 hours ago, Carpa01 said:

    In such a simple experience, noise is a fundamental part and a rally car simply going whhhHEEEEEEEEEEEeeeee isn't exactly visceral, is it? 


    • Haha 1
  10. 1 hour ago, Jake Cushing said:

    This is a nightmare. I'm all for road vehicles going electric and reducing fumes and smog.

    But can you imagine listening to THAT when playing a motorsports video game? I'd rather listen to a man in a suit of armour drag his fingers down a blackboard.

    This is another reason we need physical copies of games. The day the bulk of vehicles in a Dirt Rally (or WRC) game sound like THAT, is the day I stop buying the latest iteration. 

    Clearly someone isn't a fan of Re-Volt.


    • Haha 3
  11. 9 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    I'm no expert, but considering my experience with Project CARS 3 on Xbox (both previous and current gen) I think CPU is the real bottleneck on the console side at least. Much smoother framerates on Series X.

    Well from what I can tell the Frostbite engine looks better with photogrammetry and has a more steady framerate. The issue is these are self funded engines in a "AA" style market. Things like Gran Turismo and Forza have much more advanced graphical engines after years of continuous iteration, a near limitless supply of cash, and a large team.

    • Like 1
  12. 6 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    You'll have to at least acknowledge that JZ is going in complete circles and not making any logical points.

    Oh, okay. I wasn't aware stating facts was making illogical circles. I see the error in my logic now, I should just make things up, then they'll be true and logical.

  13. 6 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    Instead of posting a low effort image in response to a reasonably well-written argument, it would have been better if you responded to his points specifically.

    If there's nothing to add on top of what you discussed with him previously, then perhaps you should follow your own advice.



    (Sorry to be blunt about this, but you two guys debate quite a bit and I see similar trends every time in how it ends)

    People have a hard time changing their viewpoint. If EA (or CM) come out and say they're using their own engine, then fine, I'm wrong. As it stands there's no real reasoning for believing it to be so. EA has been pushing Frostbite heavily because it's a great graphical render and now has an abundant amount of support for photogrammetry. Even Dirt 5, which I thought looked pretty good, got blasted almost universally for "bad graphics." I just don't see EA being okay with that, nor giving the team the time and money to seriously overhaul the engine when they already have one that's "better."

    The Madness engine from SMS looks okay, but I'm unsure if it's CPU or GPU limited, relatively speaking. I don't think their games ran that well on console, though much better than the significantly worse AC. People cried about PC3 looking worse than PC2, which when I look at the comparisons I don't quite understand because the cars and tracks are identical. And after watching some Digital Foundry videos... yep. PC3 struggles to run at 60.

    Unless EA pools CM, SMS, the Evo guys, and Criterion together to make a new racing game engine, keeping in mind that at the very least Criterion is now working on NFS and CM is still working on F1 and Dirt or WRC, it seems very unlikely. If the studios are already working on a game in an engine, they may release in that engine, but if Matt McMuscles' Wha Happun? has anything to say about it, EA isn't afraid of switching engines mid production with the same deadline.

    Even if their next games are released in their own engines, the next one after that might be something else pushed on them by EA.

    • Like 1
  14. On 7/13/2021 at 11:18 AM, PJTierney said:

    @JZStudios @Jake Cushing

    The debate about game engines and such is interesting, but please try to keep it to that and not attack each others' opinionated delivery methods.

    I don't want to see this get out of hand, so if you feel you need to reel it back in, think before you post 🙂 


    Try not to be this guy 🙂 

    xkcd: Duty Calls

    I'm always that guy. If people weren't wrong there wouldn't be an argument. In this instance it's not a subjective thing. It's a fact that EA has been pushing Frostbite on it's studios even though they don't want. It's also a fact that there's been 3 racing titles on the engine with bad physics, who's developer was then shuttered after the failure of the franchise, which apparently they didn't bother to make a serious attempt at a racing game. It's also a fact that Criterion has been pulled from a dev studio on it's untitled Beyond Cars game years ago to be a support studio for physics issues in Frostbite. And Dice LA.

    I just don't understand how I'm the crazy guy for saying that. Frostbite's physics don't need to be "simulator" since any and all physics ARE a simulation, they just need to be consistent and stable. Frostbite's physics are only consistent in it's instability. GTA, Halo, Forza Horizon, Driver, Burnout, etc. don't have "simulation" physics nor are they a "serious attempt," yet the physics in all of those is consistent and stable, unlike Frostbite.

    7 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    These are examples of 'serious driving games with complicated physics'?

    Look above. If it can't handle basics why would you think it could handle something more intensive? That's seriously flawed logic. I also don't understand how you continue to think a racing game franchise isn't a "serious driving game with complicated physics." If you agree that NONE of those titles handle physics well at all, considering most only require basic simulations, why would you think it can handle more complicated systems? Again, if it's outputting 5 when it should be 4 on a basic addition problem, why would you assume it's capable of calculus?

    Play any Frostbite game and tell me even the basics of physics, which they all have, is consistent or stable.

    Decoupling the physics engine isn't going to happen. That's a more complicated process than just turning one off and flipping another on. And again that defeats the point of homologating the studios with the same engine so they can work together. No offense to PJ, but he's not a programmer, he's a community manager talking unofficially. You're acting like he's talking about something confirmed when he simply stated that someone else does something different.

    What logically makes you think EA won't force Frostbite on CM or SMS like it did with all of it's other studios? Because they let one game be made on UE4? Or just because they already have an engine, like all the other dev studios that had Frostbite forced on them? EA is the big leagues, and the big leagues want that graphical fidelity. People complain about Dirt's aging graphics engine. At absolute best they would use the SMS engine, which people also criticize. I don't know what you think the likely end result will be.

    • Like 1
  15. 6 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    People want to make ill-judged proclamations and double down on them, someone's going to point it out

    I've been making an attempt, but as usual people don't want to look at the blindingly obvious facts in front of them.

  16. 12 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    Doing a fine job of that all on your ownsome, soldier! 😃

    Let's make this simple.

    - What is an example of a driving game with serious, complicated physics, that was attempted on Frostbite and failed due to the engine? 

    - Do you have any concrete evidence that vehicle physics like the DR series cannot be imported into Frostbite?

    Edit: Moreover, do you realise how unlikely your position is here? You're absolutely adamant that DR3 will be forced to run on Frostbite. Do you really, seriously believe that EA and Codemasters would do this, AND give it physics like Battlefield or NFS?

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Gee, I dunno, maybe the Need For Speed series, Star Wars, and multiple Battlefield series? Not to mention ME Andromeda and Anthem. Just because something isn't a "serious sim attempt," whatever the hell that means, doesn't mean they don't have physics. And they physics they do have is ******* broken. It's a very simple concept. If it was so damn easy for the engine and to implement then all of these franchises would have vastly more stable physics that don't constantly glitch and freak out. It also wouldn't need an entire studio as a physics support team. I swear to god I could show you the color red and you'd call me a dumb ass claiming it's blue.

    Do you have concrete evidence it could? Every instance of physics, any physics, so far in Frostbite has proven to be unreliable, and you're claiming it is. You clearly haven't played these games. I've spent thousands of hours in Battlefield.

    Once again you're making **** up and putting it in my mouth. I said it once as a joke, then simply stated that EA was pushing most of it's studios on it. Including racing titles, so quit acting like it's inconceivable. And yes, I do. This is EA. The other studios all had their own engines for their respective titles and EA forced them to switch to Frostbite.

  17. 11 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    As I figured, you're talking decisively about something you actually know nothing concrete about.

    DICE made the Rallisport challenge games, we have an actual developer talking about Frostbite being good for vehicles, we haven't seen any failed attempt at serious vehicle physics in a Frostbite game. Ergo there is no evidence it can't be done.

    Here's deductive reasoning for you: As I said initially, it may not necessarily be a bad thing if DR3 was in Frostbite. 

    As I figured you're making **** up and putting it in my mouth.

    Just because they made racing games decades ago on a completely different engine doesn't mean they'll do so now. It's a completely different company now, how many people still at Dice worked on those games? If Frostbite was such an amazing physics title EA wouldn't have had to pull Criterion entirely off their own project to try and fix Frostbite's terrible physics and work as a support group for all of the vehicle handling projects. But somehow to you, that's not a "serious attempt at vehicle physics." Once again, vehicle physics are fundamentally based on physics, which Frostbite DOES NOT do well, and frequently freaks out, glitches, and breaks. I never said it couldn't be done, I said it's exceptionally unlikely because there's never been any proof before that it's even remotely capable of doing so.

    That's not deductive reasoning. That's not how it works. I don't even know what that is, but your making a terrible argument. You're arguing that despite years of borked vehicle dynamics across multiple games and genres with an entire studio (Actually two if you also include DICE LA) attempting to fix it that the same input of 2+2 will magically equally 4.


    5 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    That depends, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order (released late 2019) uses Unreal.

    I don't think Frostbite is "mandatory", especially now that EA have access to two high quality racing-specific engines (EGO and Madness).

    EA may be loosening up on it after all of the other studios Frostbite projects failed for multiple engine reasons. Or maybe they told EA they flat out wouldn't use it or it wouldn't work. I don't know, but EA was pushing Frostbite on everything.


    5 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    I bet what happens though is that a 16:9 image gets stretched

    No, it'll just pillarbox it like playing anything else on a screen that isn't the native ratio.

  18. 8 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

    I'm not saying it's the most ideal way to go but you know, a system similar to ACC wouldn't be a bad thing. You do this for a few years adding big seasonal DLC content and some minor DLC inbetween (all reasonably priced).

    In the meantime, the team can work on the next big iteration for 3 years or so. And having that much time to develop the new release, it could and should be a massive upgrade. Also during that time span, the devs can add other improvements (physics etc) to the live game via patches. There's the possibility for crossover where some of the elements being developed for the next title might help improve parts of the live game as well. I'm thinking of engine audio for example. 

    I sincerely believe that is a better approach than coming out each year with a new title. It'll be cheaper for the players as well in the end. Instead of buying a full game with lots of recycled content at full price, you only have to buy the DLC packs.

    OR, they could not, and just let you buy a game without having to buy a whole bunch of DLC for it. They're already on a 2-3 year dev cycle as is. Supporting a game for 3 years believe it or not does in fact take resources away from creating newer titles. On one hand, it's cool that ARMA 3 is still getting content updates 8 years after launch, but people have been asking for a major engine overhaul or new game it's desperately needed for the past 6. And you have to buy the DLC for a bunch of online matches.

    Again, they're already on a 2-3 year cycle, and they haven't done anything like that. And again that's pulling resources away from the next title unless they're shared resources, in which case it may as well be an annual or bi-annual title anyway.

    That's not necessarily true, and there's nothing saying you have to buy every released title. Either way, it's a small cost to eat, especially when most sim games have well over $60 in DLC with cars being a few bucks each.


    21 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

    So... The physics of DR couldn't be imported into Frostbite. Even with the assistance of DICE. You seem to be quite certain of this, have you actually used Frostbite, or know someone who has? 

    Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning? If you keep inputting the same formula of 2+2 and keep getting 5 as a result, there's a fairly high chance the next time you input the equation it still won't be correct. Nothing done in Frostbite has ever had decent vehicle dynamics, much less stable physics in general.

  19. 3 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    On the old 'centre pivot' question though - you've used chase-cam to demonstrate it. But isn't chase-cam an inherent problem with this question, as the camera itself pivots to keep up with the body of the car, making it by definition looking like a centre-pivot? Ie, every game looks like it uses a centre pivot when viewing chase cam?

    Asking another way, have you encountered any racing game which does not look like a centre-pivot when using chase-cam? RBR for example?

    Chase-cam is also the reason people claim the same thing about DR2.0...

    To me, some games like AC have a chase cam with zero yaw tolerance, so it's constantly whipping around on control changes and makes it look far more pivot based. Games like Forza are a bit looser and act on a spring force, you can make small movements and the camera will slowly pan back to center which feels much more natural. It's kind of funny, it shouldn't be that hard to implement, but a bunch of games just don't do it.

    But I always thought the "Pivot based turning" criticism to be exceptionally vague and a useless criticism.

  20. 8 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    I wouldn't look to either of those title's physics to be a guide. Did you really expect either to be exemplars of realistic physics?

    The question is to what extent vehicle physics is intrinsic to an engine, as opposed to the problems actually identified by developers regarding Frostbite - open world area loading problems for example. 

    Really? The devs of the engine itself in a game known for vehicular combat and a racing game aren't to be used as a reference? How does that make sense? It's not a matter of using unrealistic values, it's a matter of the physics engine being exceptionally poor and buggy. It's like arguing that Arma 3 has good vehicle physics when a tank going over a curb has a 50/50 chance of flinging it literally a km into the air. It just doesn't.


    5 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

    Why not even go a step further and instead of releasing a new WRC game each year, do what the developers of other racing franchises have done. I'm thinking of franchises like ACC, R3E etc. They release a DLC pack with all the "new season" content, ranging from cars to locations and more.

    For the love of God, please no. Please, for the sake of all things holy, dear God, no. Don't request this. This is why all the DLC for DR2 was just DR1.

    R3E has the lowest userbase simply because of it's stupid, convoluted, and ludicrous payment methods and car packs. ACC is not a forever title, and never was planned to be. Quit trying to turn everything into iRacing.

  21. On 7/8/2021 at 1:46 PM, versedi said:

    Why forum just removed my elaborate response why FrostBite isn't meant to be used for games with sophisticated physics... can I post now forum please?


    Edit incoming...


    As a long time BF4 player and casual BF3/BF1 player I can assure you that engine isn't meant for accurate physics simulation... if DR will get frostbite it means it's no longer DR and I'm 100% it's not viable to just fuse two separate engines together, even though there's probably still remains of Operation Flashpoint in Codemasters engine which EA had their toes in too.

    If EA will kill DR I will hate the company even more than I already do.


    The silence isn't assuring at all...

    I guess we will see with F1 2022 what's happening unless EA separated portion of codies devs to some NFS-likey product they will release earlier than that

    I'm aware. Frostbite is designed for shooting and looking pretty Anything else they need entire teams to try and tame and it never seems to actually work.


    On 7/9/2021 at 4:27 AM, Jake Cushing said:

    Doesn't seem like it'll be a bad thing necessarily.

    “Whenever you’re trying to do something that fits the engine—vehicles, for example—Frostbite handles that extremely well,”

    Anyone who's played any Battlefield after 3 knows that's a ******* lie. I love Battlefield, but it's never handled vehicles anywhere near remotely accurately. The NFS reboots were also lambasted for the poor vehicle physics.


    On 7/9/2021 at 5:39 AM, RodgerDavies said:

    I would be massively surprised by that - DR3 will have been planned well before the EA takeover. It may be factored in as an option for the WRC stuff, but decisions for any potential DR11 game coming out next year will surely have been taken before that. I can see Madness engine being a future option (AMS2 is doing great things with that) but I can see upgraded versions of the current Codies' one too.

    Maybe for the immediate title I could see. EA's logic is that all of their studios should use the same engine so they can all work together, which in theory is fine, but in reality is awful when it's only designed for a singular purpose. Doubtful they'll improve the Ego engine. At absolute best they might bundle the Evo guys with what's left (if anything) of Criterion to make a new racing engine.


    On 7/9/2021 at 12:37 PM, StockTunesOnly said:

    I don't think any developers are targeting last gen consoles with future titles. I know the new consoles are hard to get your hands on, I'm trying to find a PS5 myself, but the old consoles are old at this point. Trying to maintain any retro-support is just limiting anything you can do. The new consoles were already around the corner when DR2.0 released, so any future titles should be targeted at that generation and beyond.

    And yet D5 launched on all platforms. Likely the next game will too if it's coming out within the next year.

  22. 2 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

    two of the main men gone. weird how they say basically they done everything right built up the company to the high point before the takeover and now they gone. kinda be expected normally with big takeovers the first thing that happens is people are restructured or moved on.

    i think will just continue to see games per year no way massive businesses like codies already were basically doing it start doing it less. so i expect it more and hopefully they turn out great.

    whether or not EA start pushing need for speed over this way or similar titles will be interesting too..

    Dirt Rally 3 in Frostbite. I can almost guarantee EA is going to try to force that, they're making everyone use frostbite and it's only designed for battlefield.

  23. 9 hours ago, PJTierney said:

    I can lock the thread for [undefined amount of time] if you want 😉 

    Also, if there's nothing to talk about, then don't talk ❤️  This forum doesn't have a deadman switch that requires people to keep posting 🙂 

    Hey, this forum is my only form of online socializing. Everywhere else is way too restrictive.


    8 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

    Wow, time-loop!

    This is where JZ and others can make like Tom Cruise and do it all again!

    Hey, I didn't start it, why am I always the one being blamed?


    4 hours ago, tbtstt said:

    I wanted to hate it as they changed so much from the original book... but I ended up really enjoying it. 

    It's a book?

  24. 2 hours ago, richieI said:

    I have no idea. You once came here and told us that he's been diving deep down the conspiracy myths rabbit hole that's dividing western democracies. That's not healthy, his blog would help him focus on useful things. I don't know what happened exactly in this story, and quite frankly, I don't think these things should be dragged into forums and discussed in public. 

    I never said that, I said he posts a lot of political stuff. And most of the "conspiracies" of late have been true.

    His story is that he wants sim games to be better, and people don't like that. At some point he started noticing and making aware that one dude was a psycho who was baiting kids and beating his girlfriend. The psycho dude told EA (Since he worked for SMS, bought by Codies, bought by EA) that Austin bullied him by providing public court documents which led to a suicide attempt that he talked about years ago, the reason then stated because someone ordered a pepperoni and ham pizza. EA then subsequently "fired" Austin by failure to renew his contract.

    On the sim racing side, after being banned by pretty much every forum and having to make his own blog, people continued to **** all over him while he criticized video games. He was "The death of sim racing." After a while Ian Bell at SMS bribed him with a new PC and a job offer for QA tester, thus his newfound "insider" knowledge of how these things work. A little while after that he shut the blog down for "conflicting interests" since he worked for another studio. Around a year and a half ago he started it back up in limited extent, was forced to shut it down again, then I think started it again before being "fired" before fully opening it back up and subsequently closing it again.

    He's done with sim racing in general because from the outside it's full of abusive weirdos who stalk you in the community, devs who are ass holes, projects that go in circles, ridiculous payment methods, poor on track physics and glitches, terrible AI, lack of structure, etc. From the inside, it's the same basically, but worse. Back when he was running his blog people spread rumors online that were... well pretty bad.


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