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welcome back devs ! enjoy your break ? lets clear the tables .

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well welcome back from the break and welcome to a new year. B) with  new year lets start the spring cleaning early and with that can we clense the time tables of the cheaters and times on.

there are quite a few on and it would be nice to get right on it.thanks !

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IMO, a full swipe of the leaderboards will be required if they finally will get on top of the cheating problem. But as long as there are cheats that work, you'll be banning the obviously impossible times, but the ones that are in Top 20 will be left there, while those are the biggest issue in fact.

In any case, a lot of work ahead of them on the anti-cheating front.

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IMO, a full swipe of the leaderboards will be required if they finally will get on top of the cheating problem. But as long as there are cheats that work, you'll be banning the obviously impossible times, but the ones that are in Top 20 will be left there, while those are the biggest issue in fact.

In any case, a lot of work ahead of them on the anti-cheating front.
the thing is those that do legit top tens will grow tired of constant resets. just ban the cheaters remove there times.wipes dont solve the cheaters.that just removes their times and actually punishes legit people.

doing a perfect once in a life time run on a course can take alot of time. times that by the number of courses in the game and cars then you have alot of time invested wiped out because someone else cheats !

their is a thread on steam naming and shaming the cheats and as already pointed out its blatant most are cheaters. 20-30 secs at top. so why race ?

it would be nice to see and hear from the devs what is happening on this front and when they will be removed.

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Don't understand cheating at all. Why would you cheat yourself out of the best part of racing? "Hollow victory" indeed.

Train. Get good. Earn it.

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dgeesi0 said:

doing a perfect once in a life time run on a course can take alot of time. times that by the number of courses in the game and cars then you have alot of time invested wiped out because someone else cheats !

Playing Devil's advocate, I wonder what percentage of the market really care about the top 10 of the leaderboards? By definition the vast majority will sit well outside of it. Unlike an online racing service like iRacing which groups drivers into races by rating and time trials by divisions, there is nothing really here to give drivers something to aim for in terms of leaderboards.

The top spots will be dominated by people who get to memorise each stage to perfect each corner. It is a worthy enough ambition and an interesting off shoot albeit more akin to circuit racing hot lapping. I guess the question is how strategic is is to Codemasters and is it worth devoting significant resource to?

Personally I would rather see resource put into create a more dynamic and variable surface which would of course play havoc with any form of hotlap competition. If you follow iRacing you may be aware there is a massive trade off between ensuring a fair competition where drivers drive at different times of the day or week and developing a dynamic simulation.

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The lines are too blurred now.  Where do you actually draw the line?  Who cheats, who doesn't?  Why cull the tops of the leaderboards to a certain point?  Is 'the point' even legit, or just accepted?  Who even knows?

When X amount of players have cheated but 'not obviously', the legit top drivers may have X amount of cheats amongst them by just tenths, which go undetected and blur their legitimate achievements, but not in an obvious way?

You can spend your life pulling the weeds you see, or you can stop the problem once with weed-killer

@dgeesi0 I would rather give up a few times as collateral damage, than have some muppet with a Grav-mod take my place.  If my time gets wiped, I'll gladly work to earn another spot on a leaderboard

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dgeesi0 said:

doing a perfect once in a life time run on a course can take alot of time. times that by the number of courses in the game and cars then you have alot of time invested wiped out because someone else cheats !

Playing Devils's advocate, I wonder what percentage of the market really care about the top 10 of the leaderboards? By definition the vast majority will sit well outside of it. Unlike an online racing service like iRacing which groups drivers into races by rating and time trials by divisions, there is nothing really here to give drivers something to aim for in terms of leaderboards.

The top spots will be dominated by people who get to memorise each stage to perfect each corner. It is a worthy enough ambition and an interesting off shoot albeit more akin to circuit racing hot lapping. I guess the question is how strategic is is to Codemasters and is it worth devoting significant resource to?

Personally I would rather see resource put into create a more dynamic and variable surface which would of course play havoc with any form of hotlap competition. If you follow iRacing you may be aware there is a massive trade off between ensuring a fair competition where drivers drive at different times of the day or week and developing a dynamic simulation.
without times why race ? it is the whole point of start to finish fastest time. true there is a small percentage who will sit in the top positions but arguing against just because many dont sit in those positions is kinda silly.

reason i stopped with most other dirt games with times exact same cause cuts/cheats. to competitive people it is almost everything in the game. once that vital part becomes pointless then why play.

now imagine this game has only just actually released but its already apparent one of the biggest issues already with a game fully released 4 weeks ago is the amount of cheats ! everything else is pretty spot on. i think its that good i feel a bit of a **** moaning about this but i aint going to sit and let it just slide under the carpet because a small amount do race for those top times.

it is very important to those that compete and it really needs getting a grip of. it isnt hard to find the cheats. there isnt many multihacks for the game and mostly they are based around the same old hack which people used in earlier dirt games !

the devs have been off for a well earned christmas break but back at work this should be a priority and the cheats are increasing and ruining the game/leader boards.

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dgeesi0 said:

without times why race ? it is the whole point of start to finish fastest time. true there is a small percentage who will sit in the top positions but arguing against just because many dont sit in those positions is kinda silly.

I would speculate that the vast majority of the DiRT Rally market use it for single player competition only. The question is how strategic is an online leaderboard to sales volumes?

At what point to people cease to care about their leaderboard position? Top 20, 50, 100, 500 or more? If you have a product selling in hundreds of thousands then you need some serious categorisation to create any interest in online leaderboards otherwise who cares if they are 751st or 1751st or 35751st. Hence it being a massive priority for 0.1% of the customer base seems a bit out of whack, unless there are serious plans to create an online leaderboard service as a key component.

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as a sales tool no it is only for those that are in a small minority but also it is very important.

look at those who are legit and put in the hrs to get those top times most are prominent dirt rally players who helped shape the great game its become. there are many ways of looking at it and i messaged darren about it and it seems that only a wipe can be done to get rid of the times.

so everytime a cheater does a time only way is to wipe the boards. which is a shame as many of those fastest legit players will just give up after a few wipes as you know more or less another wipe will happen due to the cheating nature.

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TonyRickard said:
The top spots will be dominated by people who get to memorise each stage to perfect each corner. It is a worthy enough ambition and an interesting off shoot albeit more akin to circuit racing hot lapping. I guess the question is how strategic is is to Codemasters and is it worth devoting significant resource to?

Personally I would rather see resource put into create a more dynamic and variable surface which would of course play havoc with any form of hotlap competition.
Hot-lapping isn't so much a problem with this rally game.  We all know the corners, but the surface bumps, gradient & differing friction make the car behaviour a constant variable.  Driving in this game is reactive and car control is as important as stage knowledge.  It's also a big deciding factor in just how fast you can go, given the available corner grip & ability to put the power down.

The 'mod' that's used, does away with that uncertainty and the grip becomes more constant and dependable, it's like V1.5 physics hybrid type-affair, progressive but with weight...  Friction is increased, wheelspin and slides reduce, as does airtime.  You can turn in, & put the power down earlier & more effectively.  Stages become more 'circuit-like' as handling is dependable and we're back to hot-lapping :(

My absolute favourite part if this game, is the demand for perfect throttle control & abilityto effectively weight-transfer, just like a car!  I would rather not have the game, than alter those qualities.

whats increasingly frustrating for me these days, is inability to concentrate on a stage due to my mind inevitably wandering to 'This Fucking Topic' every damn stage I try to push hard on, in vain, knowing some lazy tosser will do the same stage, & the only effort they have to invest, is to press some key a couple of clicks and take my place on the leaderboards 

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dgeesi0 said:
the thing is those that do legit top tens will grow tired of constant resets. just ban the cheaters remove there times.wipes dont solve the cheaters.that just removes their times and actually punishes legit people.

doing a perfect once in a life time run on a course can take alot of time. times that by the number of courses in the game and cars then you have alot of time invested wiped out because someone else cheats !

their is a thread on steam naming and shaming the cheats and as already pointed out its blatant most are cheaters. 20-30 secs at top. so why race ?

it would be nice to see and hear from the devs what is happening on this front and when they will be removed.
That's why the reset should happen after the problem have been fixed.

Also, it's not like you have anything other than racing in a... racing game. So being able to post the times again on all the tracks with all the classes should actually be more refreshing than not. You're gonna do it anyway, because again, you're gonna race if you'll be playing. So moaning about having to race in a racing game is... kind of strange, to say the least.

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 That's pretty depressing. They really need to find a way to delete dodgy individuals. Very surprised they can't do that. People can argue it's not important for the majority of people but as soon as the boards can't be trusted they become pointless and competing for times is the essence of rally. Even less competent players benefit from having something to aim for. It's a great shame.

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 That's pretty depressing. They really need to find a way to delete dodgy individuals. Very surprised they can't do that. People can argue it's not important for the majority of people but as soon as the boards can't be trusted they become pointless and competing for times is the essence of rally. Even less competent players benefit from having something to aim for. It's a great shame.
At least the leaderboards are managed by the Codies themselves. I've seen leaderboards managed by "fans" and... well, cheaters in the administration team. So you basically got "banned" on their site because they don't like you and then people just called you a cheater because you're banned on a site that is effectively run by cheaters themselves (not all, but one cheater in admin team can destroy whole work the legit part does).

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People can argue it's not important for the majority of people but as soon as the boards can't be trusted they become pointless and competing for times is the essence of rally. Even less competent players benefit from having something to aim for. It's a great shame.
My point is that in its current form the leaderboards are only of interest to the a relative few because it is one huge board. In sports you don't have a world leaderboard for everyone but it is organised into levels. I have some real world rally trophies for class places in regional South West UK events which couldn't be further from WRC! As it stands far from giving them something to aim for it would just demotivate to be so far off the top guys even if above average overall.

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Tony, top 20 is easily achievable in the game, even without external assistance.  But yeah, I get your point, 100,000 people can't all be top 20

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People can argue it's not important for the majority of people but as soon as the boards can't be trusted they become pointless and competing for times is the essence of rally. Even less competent players benefit from having something to aim for. It's a great shame.
My point is that in its current form the leaderboards are only of interest to the a relative few because it is one huge board. In sports you don't have a world leaderboard for everyone but it is organised into levels. I have some real world rally trophies for class places in regional South West UK events which couldn't be further from WRC! As it stands far from giving them something to aim for it would just demotivate to be so far off the top guys even if above average overall.
And your point is a good one, but it's a topic for a different conversation. Even boards that were organised into different levels would need to be based on reliable information. Surely we are all agreed that cheat free boards would be preferable, there's no argument to be had in this thread.

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@Cortextual, your telemetry tool would be a great for verification of runs, with ability to see suspension pre-load or throttle/rpm anomalies, but unless it's hard-written into the HUD, can't be effectively implemented.  Sometimes I wonder if that's why you rarely see it 'shown off' in replays?
It's use could keep a group league nice & honest though.

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People can argue it's not important for the majority of people but as soon as the boards can't be trusted they become pointless and competing for times is the essence of rally. Even less competent players benefit from having something to aim for. It's a great shame.
My point is that in its current form the leaderboards are only of interest to the a relative few because it is one huge board. In sports you don't have a world leaderboard for everyone but it is organised into levels. I have some real world rally trophies for class places in regional South West UK events which couldn't be further from WRC! As it stands far from giving them something to aim for it would just demotivate to be so far off the top guys even if above average overall.
And your point is a good one, but it's a topic for a different conversation. Even boards that were organised into different levels would need to be based on reliable information. Surely we are all agreed that cheat free boards would be preferable, there's no argument to be had in this thread.
Of course but we all know that achieving online level playing fields can take a lot of effort. Whether it is the number one priority for the development team in isolation from development of the online service beyond a simple board I am less sure of.

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KevM said:
Tony, top 20 is easily achievable in the game, even without external assistance.  But yeah, I get your point, 100,000 people can't all be top 20
No, it isn't. Only for a very small minority.
 
A global world league is only relevant for maybe the top 50. That's probably 1% of all players. But that is a general problem with online gaming.
Imagine we would have only one global soccer league, for all the thousands of soccer teams world wide. All the local and lower league soccer teams would instantly end up somewhere irrelevant, compared to their previous leagues with ~20 places for each league.
I guess anyone can imagine the incentive to care about any league if you are at place 1529...

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KevM said:
@Cortextual, your telemetry tool would be a great for verification of runs, with ability to see suspension pre-load or throttle/rpm anomalies, but unless it's hard-written into the HUD, can't be effectively implemented.  Sometimes I wonder if that's why you rarely see it 'shown off' in replays?
It's use could keep a group league nice & honest though.
There are problems with that idea though. Firstly, that's not what it's intended for and it doesn't necessary show anything like that, we've already seen some anomalies with the suspension stuff that weren't indicative of anything underhanded, as you know. Then there's the fact everyone in a league would need to record their runs and upload them for people to verify, that's not really viable, especially when some people are already giving all the spare time they can to completing leagues, without watching everyone else's runs. Some people don't have the hardware necessary to record either.

At some point you have to trust that the majority of people are honest and that it's a small minority of c*ckbags cheating. I really would be less inclined to think people are up to no good if they are uploading videos. Not using some kind of overlay to display their inputs is no reason to suspect cheating. There can be other reasons for it, some people don't like how it looks, others can't make it work with their setup, it could conflict with other things.

Your heart is in the right place Kev but your ideas for hunting down cheaters are a little aggresive if they force legit players to constantly prove their honesty. You know how I feel about this witch-hunt mentality, we don't want that kind of atmosphere.

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And tiering the leaderboards would lead to further corruption and kicking off about it...

What ever happened to 'a gentleman's agreement'? :)

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KevM said:
And tiering the leaderboards would lead to further corruption and kicking off about it...

What ever happened to 'a gentleman's agreement'? :)
The internet happened =\

Gentlemen are analogue and don't seem to convert well into digital.

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Cortextual said:

Your heart is in the right place Kev but your ideas for hunting down cheaters are a little aggresive if they force legit players to constantly prove their honesty. You know how I feel about this witch-hunt mentality, we don't want that kind of atmosphere.
I hate the atmosphere too, but others are all over the topic.  I may have picked up on it fairly early, but unfortunately the problem itself has now grown arms and legs an spread, everyone is discussing it.  I hope it doesn't engulf the best & most enjoyable rally game there has been in my lifetime!  The game deserves more 

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