Proposal for Dirt Rally 2 Development Plan

[SkyRex 417]

Dear CM-DiRT Team,

You might have decided on this already, but in case you are still thinking about how to proceed in the future, let me give you an idea of what I think whould be the most satisfying approach for both sides:

Start development of Dirt Rally 2 immediatly after Console realease, and start porting the physics and assets over to a new engine. You said the stage lengths are limited by the engine, so start developing a platform that can support all the stuff you might dream up. Design it if possible in a way to support all existing assets (graphical polishment of course, but no need to create everything from scratch), namely tracks and cars (if licencing works again) then you can aim to stitch some of the stages together as soon as the engine can handle it (Monte Carlo, Finland). 

 SIMULTANOUSLY  the enviroment artists of your team can start developing a DLC for DiRT Rally 1, by adding one new location to the game. I would wish for one outside of europe with nice enviroment, for example: Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Olympus Rally USA, China or Japan (not Mexico, its to similar to greece)

As soon as this DLC goes live, the enviroment artists focus on new locations for DR2, like Safari Rally, if longer stages are supported by the engine. If that is currently also an engine limitation, maybe also think of proper multi-surface locations like spain.

Everything of course according to your budget and what is possible with that in mind. But creating the new engine in a way that supports old assets, which only need graphical polishment, cuts the developing costs a little bit compared to creating everything new. And DR2 would have more variety without costing a lot more than DR1.

This way the community would be quite happy with DR1 once you launch some new cars with the console release, maybe PikesPeak Gravel, and maybe around September or so launching the DLC with the 7th rally location. Then you could focus on DR2 and maybe enter Early access with it in late 2018 or so.  

[RyuMakkuro 6]

"If only things would be that easy" is what the devs would be thinking most likely if they will be reading this.

Generally speaking I agree with most, problem is... it's never that easy as it sounds.

[Underkex 0]

• Body is 40 stages, locations, replays, cars too short.

[BadD0g 0]

I'm in the camp with those who want long-term support for DR, rather than moving straight into a sequel, although I seem to be getting the idea that that's an unpopular opinion? I could be wrong, but i see a lot of requests for DR2 features already, even though DR has only existed since the middle of last year. I understand there's engine limitations in the game's current state, but the common response seems to be "just make a sequel and fix everything, no problem."  I'm no game dev but I don't think it's that easy. I think the team has done a remarkable amount with the limited budget they had and asking for development of a sequel immediately seems a bit silly.

[SkyRex 417]

BadD0g said:

I'm in the camp with those who want long-term support for DR, rather than moving straight into a sequel, although I seem to be getting the idea that that's an unpopular opinion? I could be wrong, but i see a lot of requests for DR2 features already, even though DR has only existed since the middle of last year. I understand there's engine limitations in the game's current state, but the common response seems to be "just make a sequel and fix everything, no problem."  I'm no game dev but I don't think it's that easy. I think the team has done a remarkable amount with the limited budget they had and asking for development of a sequel immediately seems a bit silly.

The development of a sequel right after the launch of a game is common practise in the gaming industry (maybe not a series sequel directly, but most times a new game for sure) Because programmers have to be paid, and if you don't want to fire them they need something to do. So I'm pretty sure they will start developing 'something' once conosle s release is out. Because you don't need most programmers for creating new cars or even new stages, which would be the DLC content most of the community are asking for. You need artists, 3D-modelers, sound artists and so on for this, but not many programmers , because the system of it is already there. And I doubt CM plans to fire half of Dirt-Team-Programmers because the community wants a 2-3 year DLC support

[FloatingGrass 0]

Um... Dirt Rally was released a month ago ish.. If Codemasters is already making a sequel instead of planning more content and patches for Dirt Rally then that'll be dissappointing.

[Porkhammer 78]

Yeah fuck sequels this early, that would be silly. Better to improve existing product.

[SkyRex 417]

Porkhammer said:

Yeah fuck sequels this early, that would be silly. Better to improve existing product.

Nobody talks about an early release. Even if they'd start today you won't be seeing anything on DR2 until at least 2018. Developing games takes a lot of time nowadays. DR1 has also been developed for several years (Not just since Early Access). 
And the Team will start developing something soon, I'm pretty sure, be it a GRID title or DR2 or F1(althoough I think thats a different team)

[Porkhammer 78]

It would still suck if they all of a sudden started focusing their efforts on a sequel, when they can just improve DR instead.

Sequels are overrated.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Porkhammer said:

Sequels are overrated.

Not when the original has the "limited by engine" written all over it. I prefer to have a sequel that won't have those limitations and will allow actual improvements to be done, over staying with a product and trying to improve it when it can't be done (adding more content isn't really improving).

On top of that, they can still be doing DLCs and patches for DR while working on DR2. It's not easy but if they manage it well, they can effectively pull it off.

DR is great, don't take me wrong, but if DR2 will be well executed it should make DR look like... some kind of pre-alpha game tbh. Full length stages coupled with PBR engine would do just about that (and sequel would mean more work would be done on the physics :p )

In short, support the current product for as long as possible while managing to work on a sequel.

[dgeesi0 305]

i dont mind how dirt rally looks.

i would rather pay for dlcs and just add to this game.

bring in all the iconic places of rallying. so many locations could be done.
bring in more cars.
bring in the main thing missing from Dirt rally proper mp. yes it could be done with time.

why go spend to 3 years for next game then hope for massive hit again when you have a hit now and just build on that ? constant flow of money in for content as its done.

[versedi 39]

Creating a sequel to DR means investing in the engine a lot of budget because this is the only way I can imagine it. It also takes a lot of time. Only after creating some kind of solid basis then you can actually start working on the game content. We're talking about 3-5 years of constant development at very least.
I agree with @RyuMakkuro - best way and also the hardest way (nobody said it's gonna be easy) would be to split the focus between making the engine actually handle all the things that most fans are requesting and creating at least one DLC here cause the materials are already there which was mentioned by @KickUp in Eurogamer's interview - why not make more $ from current product with not so much budget put in, while also working on his proud successor? Unless the budget's so small that it can't be split and there's no successor. Simple.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

dgeesi0 said:

i dont mind how dirt rally looks.

Someone forgot that engine limitations are not "just" how nice the graphics are, but how long the stages are, how many cars can be on the stages (remember your pleading for multiple cars on stage even in online ghost mode? Engine limiations) and so on and so forth.

New engine is not about only better graphics, but about allowing things you previously couldn't do. Longer stages was basically if not the most requested, then one of the most requested thing in the Early access, until Codies written it with their blood on the front page "Longer stages are impossible due to engine limitations".

I personally would think that improving something that quite literally can't be improved is a completely stupid idea. Yeah, game is a great hit, but what good is investing in it when there's nothing to improve that can't be done while simultaneously working on a new engine for all of their games?

Few DLCs with new RX tracks and a rally location or two and that's about it. Fortunately or not.

[SkiddyMcCrash 311]

SkyRex said:

SIMULTANOUSLY  the enviroment artists of your team can start developing a DLC for DiRT Rally 1, by adding one new location to the game. I would wish for one outside of europe with nice enviroment, for example: Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Olympus Rally USA, China or Japan (not Mexico, its to similar to greece)

Based what Codieshas been said in the past, it would be a lot cheaper, and easier to create new stages for the countries we already have in game. So, if they do DLC I wouldn't be expecting any new countries.

[dgeesi0 305]

RyuMakkuro said:

dgeesi0 said:

i dont mind how dirt rally looks.

Someone forgot that engine limitations are not "just" how nice the graphics are, but how long the stages are, how many cars can be on the stages (remember your pleading for multiple cars on stage even in online ghost mode? Engine limiations) and so on and so forth.

New engine is not about only better graphics, but about allowing things you previously couldn't do. Longer stages was basically if not the most requested, then one of the most requested thing in the Early access, until Codies written it with their blood on the front page "Longer stages are impossible due to engine limitations".

I personally would think that improving something that quite literally can't be improved is a completely stupid idea. Yeah, game is a great hit, but what good is investing in it when there's nothing to improve that can't be done while simultaneously working on a new engine for all of their games?

Few DLCs with new RX tracks and a rally location or two and that's about it. Fortunately or not.

you must always remember that sometimes things are said not to be possible, when often its more its just not worth it to do it business wise.

could they add mp to dirt rally = yes. maybe they just think its worth doing it on a newer engine and platform at the start.

[function9 0]

While some of us would love longer/full stages, who's to say that even if they had the capability they would do it? I'm sure they have the numbers to see if it would be worthwhile, but I'd guess sprint stages at roughly the 3-4min range are the most popular and probably considered long by a regular/casual player. I'd be skeptical of a studio making the investment of,
 
1. Building an engine that could handle a 30km+ stage.
2. Developing/actually building an entire stage of that length (or longer).

[KevM 44]

Did Codies not announce Ego 4.0 with DX12 support a few weeks back?

(I dont know what that means - lol :p )

[SkyRex 417]

function9 said:

While some of us would love longer/full stages, who's to say that even if they had the capability they would do it? I'm sure they have the numbers to see if it would be worthwhile, but I'd guess sprint stages at roughly the 3-4min range are the most popular and probably considered long by a regular/casual player. I'd be skeptical of a studio making the investment of,
 
1. Building an engine that could handle a 30km+ stage.
2. Developing/actually building an entire stage of that length (or longer).

It wouldn't be wasted effort, becasue they can obviously split it up into smaller chunks for the casual appeal, like they already did. 2 stages modelled resulted in 12 stages total per location. So lets say one 30km+ stage modelling would yield: two 30km+ stages (normal+reverse) , four 15km+stages, and eight  6-7km stages (3-4min) . Modelling wise it would be the same effort as modelling two 11km+ stages as it is now, resulting in 14 or more usable ingame stages. It's not wasted effort, the engine just has to be capable of handling the big ones 

[TonyRickard 17]

RyuMakkuro said:

Porkhammer said:

Sequels are overrated.

Not when the original has the "limited by engine" written all over it. I prefer to have a sequel that won't have those limitations and will allow actual improvements to be done, over staying with a product and trying to improve it when it can't be done (adding more content isn't really improving).

On top of that, they can still be doing DLCs and patches for DR while working on DR2. It's not easy but if they manage it well, they can effectively pull it off.

DR is great, don't take me wrong, but if DR2 will be well executed it should make DR look like... some kind of pre-alpha game tbh. Full length stages coupled with PBR engine would do just about that (and sequel would mean more work would be done on the physics :p )

In short, support the current product for as long as possible while managing to work on a sequel.

Agree with all of that. Hopefully the dev team are on a roll and can persuade the guys upstairs to sign off all of the above!

[ramPage16 0]

Personally I care way more about engine improvements like better/fixed physics, multiplayer, an overhauled replay system, long stages, etc. If Codies are indeed interested in taking things further and creating a real sim, then those features seem like the logical next step to me. If the current engine limits those features from being incorporated then why shouldn't they start work on a sequel? As Ryu said, I think they can manage working on a sequel while also making DLC for DR.  
  
Side note: CM, if you happen to be apprehensive about creating a legit rally sim, just remember that despite the fact DR has an insanely steep learning curve the game was still very successful because you created a quality product. People miss the days of games being hard and want a challenge.

[dgeesi0 305]

yes challenging games are very light on the ground. i think thats why so many prefer dirt rally over the easier dirt 3 and so on.

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

I dont mind about better Graphics, they are perfect for me right now, the only thing is the stage length which for the cost of developing the new engine and then the long stages i will do a lot of rallys like we have now and maybe with 2 diferent stages per country, add sisteron to mc add vineyards to germany add myherin to wales add circuit of ireland which is not far from the studios and it is a really interesting rally and many many more

[MrDeap 12]

It's the ultimate thread to be ignored by professional.

It's like giving tips for the top 10 players how to drive FAST in DiRT Rally.

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

MrDeap said:

It's the ultimate thread to be ignored by professional.

It's like giving tips for the top 10 players how to drive FAST in DiRT Rally.

@MrDeap this are opinions if you dont like it dont read it, these help the devs on what do players will like the most, lot of things suggested here came to reality in DiRT Rally so you think they will ignore what we write, dont think so

[gheeD 15]

I agree with ramPage that I think it would be beneficial to have DR2 with a new game-engine (which means it wont be 1-2 year release cycle for the next game) but I can't claim to know what kind of business decisions codemasters should do in the future. 

But there's no denying the engine in DR is pretty old and base is made for consoles, and they are slowly patching and working around that to make it even remotely work fine like it should on PC ( they are doing alright job) but a new, modern game engine that is made from the ground up to work both pc and console would be great next step in my opinion. They even said it themselves that they had quite little experience with pc development and this early access had been a real eye opener.