is this good or bad for Dirt Rally ?

[dgeesi0 305]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFsKSpXjfeQ

what is your opinion on this ?

basically people have got it so they can drive with your mouse almost better than a wheel.i think it shouldnt be allowed myself.

for a few reasons.

it takes away from any skill of using a wheel.
its easier to control a mouse.
mouse will have far more precise movements than any wheel, joypad.
it ruins any kind of integrity of a driving game if once perfected mouse driving is faster which i can see it being a huge advantage.

it would be sad for such a great game and tables to be topped by almost arcade tactics with a small flick of a mouse.i know some wont agree but do you agree mouse driving should be allowed ?

obviously others wont share my view thats why i posted to see your views. ;)

[Porkhammer 78]

To me, it matters little on how people decide to play the game. Keyboard, mouse, gamepad, wheel... because no matter what you choose, it will take equal amounts of commitment and time to become really fast. It's not like people with mouse steering becomes good overnight, it requires hell of a lot of dedication and practice... same with keyboard and gamepad. granted, maybe not the same kind of practice as one would have with a wheel, but it's still lots of time invested into the game.

I can't say I agree about your "arcade tactics" argument either, as it would include gamepad and keyboard players as well? Don't let the way people play their games bother you. Just play the game.

[dgeesi0 305]

no i understand the view is different from mine but while it would require practice a mouse is more accurate device than any other controller.

it is with a decent mouse to hold with greater precision anything on screen or at movement.the game wasnt designed to be driven by mouse.people have made it work by mouse.not only that you could use macros through the mouse for even greater precision ingame.

so to me that is more arcade.especially if you can drive harder cars like the 037 easier with a mouse.

for eg imagine turning with a wheel for a hairpin with a wheel.
then imagine with a mouse just small movements just side to side. its a massive advantage.

[YoMrWhite 11]

dgeesi0 said:

for eg imagine turning with a wheel for a hairpin with a wheel.
then imagine with a mouse just small movements just side to side. its a massive advantage.

That might on the other hand cause problems at high speeds and on straights, where you don't want to steer to much. So I go with Porkhammer here. It might be easier to come to grips with the game at first, but equally hard to go really fast.

[dgeesi0 305]

the guy already had world records with the mouse.setup.so no debunked.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Well, if you ban mouse, then you should ban steering wheels and gamepads and basically any controller with analog input.

What you are effectively saying is "his controller is better than mine so it should be banned".

[KevM 44]

You can hover the mouse over the road while watching that replay and you'd swear its you driving as the steering wheel is following your pointer.  It does seem quite easy.  In fairness, accelerating, braking and gearing with the other hand would completely cook my head though! lol  
#EDIT:  He's using pedals for Accel. Brake (easy) and gearing on KB lol - melt!  

I notice the guy who recorded the video is using other known methods to gain advantage also, but none of that actually falls under the remit of actually cheating.  & if someone isn't literally cheating, you have the capability to compete with them, so I have no issue with that.

(To clarify, I'm not clearing this guy of cheating, but stating that input method does not matter)

[RyuMakkuro 6]

What should be banned is lower graphical settings having an effect on how fast you can go, aka less bumps, obstacles etc. not someone driving with a mouse. Heck, it's a way for those who can't afford those shiny steering wheels to compete with those that do. Banning this would just put a huge "ELITISM" sign over the game.

[KevM 44]

I wasnt gonna advertise the 'known method', but there you go...  Good man Ryu! :p  

[RyuMakkuro 6]

KevM said:

I wasnt gonna advertise the 'known method', but there you go...  Good man Ryu! :p  

And you think that not pointing it out would change something? To fix this they would have to take out some settings, which would raise the minimal requirements of the game. Probably something they won't do, so yeah... This trick is known throughout many games anyway. It's been used since the launch of DR for crying out loud.

[MrDeap 12]

dgeesi0 said:

no i understand the view is different from mine but while it would require practice a mouse is more accurate device than any other controller.

it is with a decent mouse to hold with greater precision anything on screen or at movement.the game wasnt designed to be driven by mouse.people have made it work by mouse.not only that you could use macros through the mouse for even greater precision ingame.

so to me that is more arcade.especially if you can drive harder cars like the 037 easier with a mouse.

for eg imagine turning with a wheel for a hairpin with a wheel.
then imagine with a mouse just small movements just side to side. its a massive advantage.

The problem on PC is that most people do not play on the same playing field as the same on console. One play with a keyboard, the other with a wheel, some with dedicated accessories, another one with a mouse, some other with a gamepad... There also the graphic setting, vsync on off, other on ultra low, other on ultra, assist on or off, etc...

It require a different to play set skill on different devices with different settings, thus everything so different that it's not worth to bother.

[KevM 44]

@RyuMakkuro - I'm here since EA and only came across it this week for the first, so yeah, not highlighting it, would probably be a better thing to do! :)

[dgeesi0 305]

you talking about the pixel talk some talk of ?

running lower settings ? some say that running lower settings gets better times . there was a thread on steam about this,

would be interesting to know if fps effects actually times achieved. in some engines this does happen.

[KevM 44]

I was dubious on the claim and did 3 Sweet Lamb test runs, a 'Slow-bug' test first, a normal comparison run and then an FPS and Surface test combined.  I was consistent, within a half second on my first two and then NINE SECONDS faster when doing the Surface and FPS together and drove no differently....   :o

[bogani 756]

Wow, that's kinda dissapointing if lower settings equals better times.

[Porkhammer 78]

Maybe that's why I have such a hard time setting WR's since I got my new PC and run everything on ultra... ;)

[TonyRickard 17]

Sitting in a real rally car being buffeted around it would seem impossible to steer precisely with a mouse in a real car but then again we can be stupidly precise with steering using a wheel too in our static sim environment. Also we can set our wheels with artificially low steering degrees to be have faster steering than in a real car. Ever wonder why they don't have a 180 degree wheel in a real car? With modern power steering systems I can't imagine there are technical limitations but I believe they would be too sensitive in an environment where forces are acting on your arms. Watch a driver and co-driver and how the driver moves far less by bracing against the steering wheel, both are strapped in just as tight!

No matter how we look at it a static home environment is different and I think it comes down to what you feel feels right. For me anything less than an authentic wheel rotation setting is creating a game environment but we will differ greatly on where any line is drawn and what should count as "valid".

[KevM 44]

Porkhammer said:

Maybe that's why I have such a hard time setting WR's since I got my new PC and run everything on ultra... ;)

You'd be capable of much higher FPS than before too though, which could be seen to help!  :)

[Porkhammer 78]

KevM said:

Porkhammer said:

Maybe that's why I have such a hard time setting WR's since I got my new PC and run everything on ultra... ;)

You'd be capable of much higher FPS than before too though, which could be seen to help!  :)

Well, when you put it like that... fair point. I was thinking of the seemingly reduced bumps in the road though.

[steviejb 0]

KevM said:

I was dubious on the claim and did 3 Sweet Lamb test runs, a 'Slow-bug' test first, a normal comparison run and then an FPS and Surface test combined.  I was consistent, within a half second on my first two and then NINE SECONDS faster when doing the Surface and FPS together and drove no differently....   :o

Please say this isn't a thing.... :(

[KevM 44]

It's a thing.   

Its not THE thing, but a thing none the less...

[dgeesi0 305]

yes i havent seen proof of this just commenting on what was on steam . you may of just driven better kev :p

[RyuMakkuro 6]

KevM said:

Porkhammer said:

Maybe that's why I have such a hard time setting WR's since I got my new PC and run everything on ultra... ;)

You'd be capable of much higher FPS than before too though, which could be seen to help!  :)

It's not about FPS. I'm pretty much certain that Porky has more FPS now, even on highest settings (minus shaders afaik) than he had before. The reduced detail in the geometry and less stuff on the road effectively smooths out the road due to less polygons etc.

Smoother road = faster times
Less stuff to go through = faster times

This has been known for ages (I don't mean just DiRT Rally). I remember one of the videos in Road Book featuring Kevin Abring. He was running Gr. A Impreza on Sweet Lamb on lowest settings. I can't really imagine that he wasn't capable of running the game at anything higher than that and still record.
One of the first things a lot of "Leaderboard wannabes" do is check if there's a difference in times between highest and lowest settings. Some even go as far as checking each and every game preset, as sometimes the preset can enable/disable thing you normally can't through the advanced settings. This is not just DiRT Rally thing. It happens in a lot of games.

[KevM 44]

High FPS is meant to slow the clock - allegedly 

[MrDeap 12]

RyuMakkuro said:

It's not about FPS. I'm pretty much certain that Porky has more FPS now, even on highest settings (minus shaders afaik) than he had before. The reduced detail in the geometry and less stuff on the road effectively smooths out the road due to less polygons etc.

Smoother road = faster times
Less stuff to go through = faster times

This has been known for ages (I don't mean just DiRT Rally). I remember one of the videos in Road Book featuring Kevin Abring. He was running Gr. A Impreza on Sweet Lamb on lowest settings. I can't really imagine that he wasn't capable of running the game at anything higher than that and still record.
One of the first things a lot of "Leaderboard wannabes" do is check if there's a difference in times between highest and lowest settings. Some even go as far as checking each and every game preset, as sometimes the preset can enable/disable thing you normally can't through the advanced settings. This is not just DiRT Rally thing. It happens in a lot of games.

Maybe, I should test that out with the default car setup to see if there's actually a major difference in time between graphic setting & post a video about it in the show off your replay thread.

It will be hard to do, because I don't know the track in every detail & may not give a consistent result. If it give an obvious result, it will clearly show a difference.

I'm kind of lazy these days, so I'll do when I will feel to. I only played around 12 hours for the past 2 weeks.