An open letter to CODEMASTERS and DIRT players

[cossierally 0]

Ok firstly this is a new account to preserve my anonymity. 

 

I would like to say first to Codemasters and the developers. You have done  an incredible job on the development of this game, I'm sorry but I can't call it a "SIM"  for reasons to follow. I have been playing this  game since its first release, it was at first huge fun,  yes it was fresh and it had a few issues but it worked incredibly well. But then you had to mess with it. The problem is all the players who thought it was brilliant and worked to their liking didn't really say much in the forums, it was the wingers and kids who couldn't drive or who were used to poorer quality arcade games like the WRC series that were forever complaining  wanting this and that changing. Unfortunately these are the ones you listened to thinking that this was the only real feedback. 

The game initially played (I still have the original with no updates)  and felt very realistic,  good grip,  good physics but you changed it all, added an unrealistic FFB, that  created opposite lock among other things for those who have never had a real car sideways. Then for some unknown reason you changed the physics, (V2) the weight of the cars and the downforce, you gave us cars that fly incredible distances and heights never seen before on real life rally. This lack of weight translates into unrealistic handling, poor braking, inability to change direction mid corner  and leaping between crests  making it difficult if not somewhat impossible to drive a realistic pace, and impacts with trackside throw the cars clean off to the other side or even off the stage completely. Especially for players like myself who have competed for real and have inbred expectations from the car we are driving. 

This is where you are going to fall flat on your face bringing it to console without fixing this huge huge error in the game physics. Why? Well this is where I throw the cat among the pigeons.  Cheaters, not the type of cheater putting up times 2 minutes faster than physically possible with timer stopping hacks, but the ones and I'm pointing the finger directly at the Dirt Hero's, top of the leader board "hero's" who use trainer programs to set fast yet almost believable stage times, yet times that are unattainable by players who do not have these programs installed, and it is going to show up seriously when these same physics are released  on the consoles.  They won't have the advantage of these programs. No one will get anywhere near these times, this knowledge will soon filter through the XBox and Playstation communities and will seriously damage its popularity and sales.  I have tried countless times to get near to the times and WR times that have been set with DEFAULT setups it's not possible, the cars will not handle to the extent necessary to make those times, the speed required is so high that the cars would be flying off into the scenery  without the addition of "GRAVITY" and or "DOWNFORCE"  hack.  I know, I have been using it! in custom rally and its brilliant to say the very least, just one press of the "page up" key and hey presto! instant improvement in grip, braking, direction change. The cars are transformed, behaving just like a real car should behave, and I know of other ex professional rally drivers, winners, champions even, who play this game and need to use a trainer to get the cars to "work" properly. 

I believe that you CODEMASTERS should seriously consider re applying just a small percent of weight and downforce to the physics, and do it now before you release to console. or  I believe that console sales will be seriously effected once it becomes clear that they can't get near times set by PC gamers. 

If in the unlikely event you take heed of this letter and alter the game, then you must also take steps to prevent the use of these trainer programs to set ever faster times. It's incredibly easy for anyone to calculate  a bogey time for a stage and keep as close to it as possible so as not to raise suspicion. 

Personally I don't want to use these programs I'd like to play the game clean, but as I already stated, the physics are wrong and the game is horrible to play as it is. I could easily but as yet not bothered to beat any of the stage times set in daily and weekly events under my usual gamer tag as beating the champion (heaven forbid) would instantly bring accusations of cheating. 

Not much more I can add to this I've said my piece, I know the Codmaster champion and his close competitors (pretty much anyone setting top 10 times at least, if not top 20 and more) will publicly vehemently deny on here to using trainer hacks, can't say I'd blame them either oh the shame to be exposed as an anti hero, but as I said I've used it, I've watched your youtube videos, I can tell its being used, there are clues in the replays visible and audible clues.  But after saying all of this maybe Codemasters don't really care, over 1/4million copies sold money in the bank. I look forward to the hate mail replies. Good evening. 

[cossierally 0]

PS I won't be replying to any comments, or arguments for or against this letter. It's just something that needed to be said. Ball is in Codemasters court to sort it out. I've also copied it and will re-post as necessary if Codies see fit to keep this quiet and sweep it under the virtual carpet   

[RyuMakkuro 6]

cossierally said:

I have tried countless times to get near to the times and WR times that have been set with DEFAULT setups it's not possible, the cars will not handle to the extent necessary to make those times, the speed required is so high that the cars would be flying off into the scenery  without the addition of "GRAVITY" and or "DOWNFORCE"  hack.  I know, I have been using it!

inb4 permaban

[dgeesi0 305]

well i can tell you right now on any wales stage with about any car i can set a top ten with the default set ups with no issues.probably first run.

infact some of my setups i used i have dismissed and gone back to default :p

wheel set up is crucial.seen many do it incorrectly and helped many with my wheel for eg.

some cheat you wont stop that.some will use trainers exploits but saying you can get near top times with default is wrong i have done it so can others.learning the courses and putting in the hrs does help.also being naturally fast/gifted helps.

some people are just faster.

the console game cant be compared as we play at different settings.different wheels.also remember we had nigh on a year over them. so for first 5-6 months you wont see times as fast as pc.even then remember some of those are real rally drivers or people with experience of driving .

[KevM 44]

This guy is a legend.  What more can I say? :)

[Kakkela 3]

My head is full of fuck...

I lost it totally on this one:
"The game initially played (I still have the original with no updates)  and felt very realistic,  good grip,  good physics but you changed it all, added an unrealistic FFB, that  created opposite lock among other things for those who have never had a real car sideways."

[PaloSamo 0]

cossierally said:
I believe that you CODEMASTERS should seriously consider re applying just a small percent of weight and downforce to the physics, and do it now before you release to console.

Discs have already been in production so I really doubt there will be any changes.

cossierally said:

The cars are transformed, behaving just like a real car should behave, and I know of other ex professional rally drivers, winners, champions even, who play this game and need to use a trainer to get the cars to "work" properly. 

Sebastien Loeb?

[Quirkitized 0]

Yes, the cars need more weight to them, yes they jump too high and far, and yes V1 tarmac was better (imo) and yes there are cheaters.

However, I have set a quite a few world records and plenty of top 5s and top 10s and I use default setups a lot. Any WR or even top 10s I set are all streamed live, no cheats. 

Once you have done all achievements, online events, leagues, there is not much left to do but improve your times, compete against others on leaderboards. When you reach that point, some people spend hours on a single stage, and that's fine. That's what the game is about, it's a point to point race, you against the clock, the endless chase to shave off seconds or tenths of a second. Just because you are not as fast as most, doesn't mean everybody that puts up top times is cheating.

Thankfully, most of the cheat times that get posted are quite obvious. However, those same people don't always get WR or top 3 and get mixed in with the top 10, but if you remember their name, you know it's BS. It's quite possible that some of those who cheat don't even know they are effecting others, as it's essentially a single player game. Some of them probably don't even realize their times are being uploaded to global leaderboards. At least, I try to tell myself that.

I do think that if this game punished us more then we would see more careful driving. Right now, losing a tire hurts more than hitting 10 trees at speed, and that's just not right. The damage modeling of the cars is great, but the actual consequence of deforming your car is more or less non-existent.

It seems you are passionate about the game which is great, but don't let it get to you so much. Hopefully in the future there will be a better anti-cheat system. And hopefully we'll have more significant repercussions for hitting trees and killing spectators, then we'll see more careful driving.

Until then, just keep driving away and pushing, you'll eventually find your groove, if not, don't resort to cheats, just accept you hit a skill cap for the time being. 

[KevM 44]

So...  If you are sometimes left scratching your head as to why your perfect run is 12 seconds off the pace, don't beat yourself up.  You are probably a lot better than your times would suggest, despite what the 'fast' boys try to drum into you!

Following @function9 's tongue-in-cheek request for me to redo my 'Porkhammer equating' run using Telemetry, I took a few mins & got it up and running again and recorded a live run! 
The full telemetry bar showing Suspension travel, is such a simple way of laying the cards on the table as far as authenticity goes  & here's why....

Below is my run using the Telemetry tool.  As you can clearly see on the suspension indicators, even when moving at speed on reasonably even surface, the suspension is at full extension (all grey), with suspension travel/compression shown by the moving white/red bars when impacts and landings occur.  Ride height/Suspension stiffness does not affect this.  I finished within 3 secs of my PB (7th Globally) and would have comfortably been Top 10 without cheating. 
https://youtu.be/cq8oxV3ZMP8

Here's a quick recap as to why that Suspension information is so important, but often excluded from view by the clued-in 'fast' drivers:- 

Below is the Menu of available trainers that are being used to score 'Alien' times:-  
1 & 3 - Gravity & Downforce - advantage over jumps and additional grip
(please dont be silly enough to give registration & payment details to a Hack website folks)
http://i.imgur.com/APKHMrn.png

Below, this screenshot from a YouTube vid & clearly shows the Gravity trainer on the Telemetry tool:- 
The car is stationary, on the Start line.  The Tool shows the suspension travel on the right.  The 4 solid white lines illustrate suspension travel per corner.  Its a major cheat tell-tale.  Although the car is at rest (see the speed is Zero?), it is benefitting from more than 50% suspension loading, due to the Gravity trainer pressing down on the vehicle.  For the majority of the replay, the suspension is compressed, sometimes fully, for extended periods. 


http://i.imgur.com/O2fQCLX.jpg

The effect is,  Driving traction as well as corner/braking grip, is increased dramatically as the tyres are pressed down onto the road, a real advantage on all stage surfaces, including & particularly on snow & ice, where the low grip & tyre-slip we all experience, is virtually eradicated.  Small bumps that upset the balance for us, no longer matter and driven wheels are almost in constant contact with the road surface.  Typical advantage is 10-12 seconds per sprint stage and 20-30+ on full length stages.  Better drivers can gain even more, but they normally get reported and banned.  Unfortunately, this has given certain influential users a free hand to manipulate the leaderboards to maintain their own faked supremacy 

[Porkhammer 78]

So if I post a WR with all those telemetry things, people will get off my back? ;)

(I did actually record one, 037 at Tsiristra Théa, but Fraps didn't pick up the overlay... so I need to up my recording game)

[Kakkela 3]

KevM said:

 Unfortunately, this has given certain influential users a free hand to manipulate the leaderboards to maintain their own faked supremacy 

Blame game starts once again...

[KevM 44]

Kakkela said:

KevM said:

 Unfortunately, this has given certain influential users a free hand to manipulate the leaderboards to maintain their own faked supremacy 

Blame game starts once again...

What Racenet name do you race under fella?  Cos I can't, for the life of me, figure out who or what you are defending?? Are you quick alias or just a randomer butting in?

I know you say you are sticking up for pals, but cheats either:-
A) won't admit to you they do it cos they know you are legit 
Or
B ) will admit they do it cos they know you are both at it

Which does that make you Kakkela? Naive or Cheat?

[Kakkela 3]

KevM said:

What Racenet name do you race under fella?  Cos I can't, for the life of me, figure out who or what you are defending?? Are you quick alias or just a randomer butting in?

I know you say you are sticking up for pals, but cheats either:-
A) won't admit to you they do it cos they know you are legit 
Or
B ) will admit they do it cos they know you are both at it

Which does that make you Kakkela? Naive or Cheat?

I'm good friend with gheeD outside of DiRT and do trust him enough to not cheat. We did explain it quite nicely on the other thread with Puhis.

I personally only drive VRC league (Trellet.net WRT at http://simracing.club with gheeD as my teammate) at the moment because iRacing is taking all my simulator time. I have driven DiRT enought tho to understand how it works and what is possible and what is not possible. My name has been on leaderboards usually right after new rally is released when everybody haven't mastered and memorized the stages yet.

[Kakkela 3]

rs200wrx said:

that telemetry tool thingy looks interesting, although probably annoying having it on screen while driving. 

If I have understood right, it is separate window that doesn't overlay the game. It is possible to have on top of game window if you drive on windowed but usually people just record with OBS or similar software and put it on top of game there.

[MrDeap 12]

KevM said:


http://i.imgur.com/O2fQCLX.jpg

It should be obvious of all side is compressed during a corner. According to a youtube video they simply have to press a button to make the car have extra downforce.

[ChristinaMc 784]

cossierally said:

PS I won't be replying to any comments, or arguments for or against this letter. It's just something that needed to be said. Ball is in Codemasters court to sort it out. I've also copied it and will re-post as necessary if Codies see fit to keep this quiet and sweep it under the virtual carpet   

No need to re-post! We've seen it. Thanks for sharing your views.

[SkiddyMcCrash 311]

Im not going to delete the thread, I don't ban for criticism of the game. Codies need to know what they're doing wrong as much as what they're doing right. That was the whole point of Early Access.

But I do ban for 2nd accounts and for also accusing other players of cheating (both are against the rules you agreed to when you signed up for both accounts). So I'll let you choose. Which account am I banning? This account, or the one you tried to protect.

I'll ban both if you don't give me an answer within the next 24 hours.

[Rallycameraman 241]

Ooooo Skiddy tell us who it is :p I don't come on here very often any more I just play the game for a hour or 2 a day and that's enough for me now. Set a couple of WR on the Germany and Monte stages with the 306 Maxi and just having a bit of fun these days. I've got a real rally car to get sorted, haven't driven it since January and I'm getting itchy feet now!!

[Evilsmurf 90]

@cossierally Opinions vary.

Although I would personally have had more respect for your opinion, if you had used your actual forum name...

[dgeesi0 305]

i think many of us could guess who :D                                               

[MrDeap 12]

In my opinion, I think it's probably a less active user on the forum, not the one you think. It's anonymous anyway....

If it was me, my English teacher would be so proud of me.

[xkevlarx 0]

KevM said:

Below is my run using the Telemetry tool.  As you can clearly see on the suspension indicators, even when moving at speed on reasonably even surface, the suspension is at full extension (all grey), with suspension travel/compression shown by the moving white/red bars when impacts and landings occur.  Ride height/Suspension stiffness does not affect this. 

Nice theory, but false though. The ride height does affect the way suspension is shown in telemetry.

Polo with max ride height


Polo with min ride height


So if you see someone in tarmac stage (like in your screenie) and telemetry showing compressed suspension, don't go jumping into conclusions about their 'integrity'.

[KevM 44]

I cant see your pics kevlar, but I have tested that with the i20 and Focus, and it didn't actually make a difference.  But hey, i am happy to cross-ref your findings later & report back !! 

PS...  The OP?

[enamel 0]

I am all for rooting out cheaters, but I totally disagree with some of your basic premises.

First, as a low to mid-pack driver, the V2 physics were a big improvement for me. The cars felt more dynamic and nuanced instead of just planted to the road all the time. V2 felt dead and overly planted, way too much grip and zero sliding of the car. This may not be the case as you reach the limits of the car/simulation, I can't speak to that. The game is much more enjoyable for me with V2.

Second, with all the posts I have seen where people have said proper FFB settings "make all the difference in the world" and "transform the game", I don't trust a single person here to be able to separate the actual physics simulation from the feedback they are getting from their plastic toy wheels. So when FFB settings can that drastically effect someone's opinions of the underlying physics engine, you get an enormous range of opinions that have nothing to do with what the car is doing, but rather what feedback is being communicated thru the wheel.

Thirdly, I completely disagree that anyone but the top one percent of players care about what is happening with the top one percent of players on the leaderboards. It will not effect game sales in the slightest, your perspective is completely skewed. Most people might want to see how they did against friends, a small amount of fast guys might want to break into the top 100 or 50, and a fraction of a percent get to concern themselves with the top ten. The rest of us completely ignore it.

Don't think I am arguing that this is reason to ignore cheaters, I don't want it in my leagues at all. And I am sorry that these things took away from your enjoyment of the game, but then again I feel like tying your satisfaction to the leaderboards is foolish in the first place. But to say that these things are more than one person's subjective opinion and this will cause the game to fail on console just completely lack perspective on what the audience of the Dirt series is looking to get out of a driving game.

[JZStudios 631]

enamel said:

I don't trust a single person here to be able to separate the actual physics simulation from the feedback they are getting from their plastic toy wheels.

HEY NOW! Some people use full metal wheels. And I'm not going to say who. But mostly because I don't know.
However, you are right about the leader boards. only a tiny populace actually cares about it. I know that in the original Forza Horizon, there was a bunch of speed traps with set speeds of like 20,000mph. So, people on consoles kind of don't give a crap.


I like how everyone basically glossed over every problem with the original post being mainly
1. This isn't a sim. People keep calling it that, except for CM, they just state it's the most "authentic." Eh, take that as you will, but I think they did a pretty good job.
2. The V1 physics had a ridiculous amount of problems with it, sorry CM :P However, I do feel like the V2 could still use some tweaking, as they tried to cram it in to the game before release. (Which I heavily applaud for pulling off.) No one would complain if you guys released some tweaks, and you have with the tires, so I assume it's possible. Or maybe your working on it in the cold dark depths of night to be secretly unleashed on the unsuspecting community as a whole..... >:)
3. People on console. I guarantee they won't care. 100% I know, because I'm one of them, and we'd like you to become one of us, one of us.... one of us.
People will still have plenty of fun with a sort of simcade, especially the Forza Horizon crowd. I know I was waiting for a Rally DLC that never came... :s The majority of console players, much like PC players, also don't  own a wheel and play with controller.Honestly there's so many things going against this that it's not really worth discussing.
4. I know for a fact that at least @Porkhammer and @dgeesi0 and a few others run completely legit, and get 1st place, especially DG's 205 run on Leet Schwamb. Sure there's cheaters, and you're obviously self admittedly among them.... so....
5. This has been pointed out, but console times vs. PC times, I still bet anyone on PC could transfer over and get the same times, except for cheaters like.... well.... y'know.
6. The top guys constantly get beaten so if you actually legitimately beat them, then props for you. If you beat them by 20 seconds, then yeah, somethings odd.

I don't really understand what makes you think you need a 2nd profile to post this, and honestly no ones given you hate mail. It's all stuff we've seen and read before, and yeah, some of it has kernels of truth, but most of your points are flat out wrong. Then you decide to ACTUALLY SAY YOU CREATED A SECOND PROFILE? Why? In all seriousness, you SUCK at keeping anonymity. I mean, come on. Make a fake email and just say you've been a long time player but only now got on the forum. Or don't mention it at all. Mind boggling. Then you follow that up by explicitly saying you weren't going to respond to any comments and expect CM to take your advice? I don't want to be the hate mail guy, but did you think any of this through?


So, in conclusion, you got yourself in trouble by admittedly using a second profile AND cheating, but only a tiny bit.... then decide you're not going to respond to anything or anyone to even possibly get ideas or suggestions out, because god forbid, that might actually lead to some resolutions.