The Cheat Thread

[PaloSamo 0]

In theory setting your wheel to a low degree rotation gives an advantage due to less time needed to make the wheels turn from lock to lock. Time is crucial in simracing. Higher degrees introduce "input lag", unless someone is able to overcome wheel travel distance and friction forces of the wheel with supernatural movements of the arms. I am not saying it is not possible, but highly unlikely.

[KevM 44]

Kakkela said:

KevM said:

I suggested tiering the Leaderboards.  To be honest, I think its the definite best way of doing it.

How would you tier them?

Name them the same as the Championship classes.

Tier them so that you are playing with competitors of the same ability, with the prospect of promotion.

The top tier could be based on times quicker than deemed 'normal' for the stage/car combo & strictly cross-ref'd with the fastest console times, & set above them, so the 'advantaged' would effectively take themselves out of normal running to a different level, where they could happily race amongst themselves and out-do each other til their hearts are content!!

The 2nd tier, would be for the fastest within what are deemed 'normal' times, again cross-ref'd with the consolers and Racenet data, with say a 2 second buffer incase someone flukes a flier.

Then 3rd and 4th etc downward, could be based on % Delta preset quantity, to give the slower/entry level guys a Leaderboard to compete within, with everyone having the prospect of promotion as ability allows!

i know the Top Tier would likely cause an uproar, but the rules would be the rules.  If you end up in there, you've got yourself there so either take pride in your ability to be a 'Master', or kak your trunks cause you've exploited and beat the secret bogeys - Deal with it! 

What do you think?

[shadow118 18]

PaloSamo said:

In theory setting your wheel to a low degree rotation gives an advantage due to less time needed to make the wheels turn from lock to lock. Time is crucial in simracing. Higher degrees introduce "input lag", unless someone is able to overcome wheel travel distance and friction forces of the wheel with supernatural movements of the arms. I am not saying it is not possible, but highly unlikely.

While it gives an advantage in the corners, it also gives a disadvantage on the straights. I used to drive with a 200° wheel and in the straigts it was a bit too twitchy. Now I drive 540° which is a good midpoint. 900° is too much for me to handle and also I think it's also a bit too much for the DFGT's FFB motor to handle, because it can't spin the wheel fast enough

[Darhour 3]

I never cheated guys, I swear.

Regards,    

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

Didzis said:

PaloSamo said:

In theory setting your wheel to a low degree rotation gives an advantage due to less time needed to make the wheels turn from lock to lock. Time is crucial in simracing. Higher degrees introduce "input lag", unless someone is able to overcome wheel travel distance and friction forces of the wheel with supernatural movements of the arms. I am not saying it is not possible, but highly unlikely.

While it gives an advantage in the corners, it also gives a disadvantage on the straights. I used to drive with a 200° wheel and in the straigts it was a bit too twitchy. Now I drive 540° which is a good midpoint. 900° is too much for me to handle and also I think it's also a bit too much for the DFGT's FFB motor to handle, because it can't spin the wheel fast enough

Yes i also have a DFGT and i use it in 450 approximately because of the ffb motor cant handle any more, and i put ffb to 150% every value and it feels nice

[dynt 0]

KevM said:

Name them the same as the Championship classes.

Tier them so that you are playing with competitors of the same ability, with the prospect of promotion.

The top tier could be based on times quicker than deemed 'normal' for the stage/car combo & strictly cross-ref'd with the fastest console times, & set above them, so the 'advantaged' would effectively take themselves out of normal running to a different level, where they could happily race amongst themselves and out-do each other til their hearts are content!!

The 2nd tier, would be for the fastest within what are deemed 'normal' times, again cross-ref'd with the consolers and Racenet data, with say a 2 second buffer incase someone flukes a flier.

Then 3rd and 4th etc downward, could be based on % Delta preset quantity, to give the slower/entry level guys a Leaderboard to compete within, with everyone having the prospect of promotion as ability allows!

i know the Top Tier would likely cause an uproar, but the rules would be the rules.  If you end up in there, you've got yourself there so either take pride in your ability to be a 'Master', or kak your trunks cause you've exploited and beat the secret bogeys - Deal with it! 

What do you think?

good shout that

 @KevM maybe also separate the wheel with the controllers and keyboard lads developing a class system keeps the whole thing competitive on many levels, plus would stop a lot of bleating right across the board,

I think people just like to feel there competing.

[dynt 0]

RinusRally said:

@KevM Good suggestion, but I would prefer to have two divisions with tiers. The non-realism division and the realism division. 

I think RinusRally    you need more separation than that as the slower lads need a league also to be competitive in.                    

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

[MrDeap 12]

Didzis said:

PaloSamo said:

In theory setting your wheel to a low degree rotation gives an advantage due to less time needed to make the wheels turn from lock to lock. Time is crucial in simracing. Higher degrees introduce "input lag", unless someone is able to overcome wheel travel distance and friction forces of the wheel with supernatural movements of the arms. I am not saying it is not possible, but highly unlikely.

While it gives an advantage in the corners, it also gives a disadvantage on the straights. I used to drive with a 200° wheel and in the straigts it was a bit too twitchy. Now I drive 540° which is a good midpoint. 900° is too much for me to handle and also I think it's also a bit too much for the DFGT's FFB motor to handle, because it can't spin the wheel fast enough

Try 270 with the PUG or the E30, FWD KIT CAR. Use an easy track with tight turn. Compare you time against 540 just for fun.

No matter how hard I try the turn in will be different, the nature of a Trustmaster belt allow you turn faster, but with a Logitech at higher degree due to of the gearing you probably can't unless you want to destroy your wheel. The near full lock on turn in really make a difference.

It will feel twitchy at first, but the rotation of the car will mostly likely to occur instead of not doing it & simply turn in. The reason why it screw up the whole run(540 degree) is due because at higher degree you will tend to take a wider racing line instead of be spot on in it. Obvious scandinavian flicks are also wider that can also make you lose over 0.3sec per corner thinking it look perfect.

[KevM 44]

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

But why try to keep them out?  Let them play, but in a class with proper competitive opponents of a similar pace?  Why would they even want to beat players with a genuine known disadvantage?  Dont ban them, let them at it!! 

The WRC has different classes for cars that are mechanically different.  A privateer can run an R4/R5 car and race others in similar cars.  They aren't racing works WRC teams (or accusing them of cheating because they have million pound budgets, quick racks and sequential boxes), everyone gets on with racing proper peers in similar equipment and it works!

[Kakkela 3]

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

That would be ideal if game is really simulated to almost perfection, but it isn't. Being pro in real life doesn't mean shit in simcade game.
Ofc they can tell how they think car feels off and give feedback to make it better, but their times can't be used as benchmark.

[Porkhammer 78]

Kakkela said:

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

That would be ideal if game is really simulated to almost perfection, but it isn't. Being pro in real life doesn't mean shit in simcade game.
Ofc they can tell how they think car feels off and give feedback to make it better, but their times can't be used as benchmark.

Pretty much this. Just because they're good in real life doesn't mean they're good at Dirt Rally.
Just use the finns as benchmarks and all is good!

[dgeesi0 305]

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

we had many proper drivers in many games it doesnt always mean they are fast. in pcars for eg i was setting top times faster than the stig.dirt 3 we had some pro guys beat them doesnt mean nothing in this.

the famous rally video in wales of the rally guy for eg looks impressive but actually very slow.

its a game.fast reactions muscle memory and practice.

[shadow118 18]

MrDeap said:

Didzis said:

PaloSamo said:

In theory setting your wheel to a low degree rotation gives an advantage due to less time needed to make the wheels turn from lock to lock. Time is crucial in simracing. Higher degrees introduce "input lag", unless someone is able to overcome wheel travel distance and friction forces of the wheel with supernatural movements of the arms. I am not saying it is not possible, but highly unlikely.

While it gives an advantage in the corners, it also gives a disadvantage on the straights. I used to drive with a 200° wheel and in the straigts it was a bit too twitchy. Now I drive 540° which is a good midpoint. 900° is too much for me to handle and also I think it's also a bit too much for the DFGT's FFB motor to handle, because it can't spin the wheel fast enough

Try 270 with the PUG or the E30, FWD KIT CAR. Use an easy track with tight turn. Compare you time against 540 just for fun.

No matter how hard I try the turn in will be different, the nature of a Trustmaster belt allow you turn faster, but with a Logitech at higher degree due to of the gearing you probably can't unless you want to destroy your wheel. The near full lock on turn in really make a difference.

It will feel twitchy at first, but the rotation of the car will mostly likely to occur instead of not doing it & simply turn in. The reason why it screw up the whole run(540 degree) is due because at higher degree you will tend to take a wider racing line instead of be spot on in it. Obvious scandinavian flicks are also wider that can also make you lose over 0.3sec per corner thinking it look perfect.

The thing is I'm not really chasing miliseconds and my lines aren't perfect anyway. In the dailys I'm usually somewhere in the top 5-10%. Maybe the 270° would be faster, but I just like driving with 540°, I used to have a 200° wheel for a couple of years befeore and now I'm enjoying the higher roation and don't want to go back to that twitciness

[MrDeap 12]

Didzis said:

The thing is I'm not really chasing miliseconds and my lines aren't perfect anyway. In the dailys I'm usually somewhere in the top 5-10%. Maybe the 270° would be faster, but I just like driving with 540°, I used to have a 200° wheel for a couple of years befeore and now I'm enjoying the higher roation and don't want to go back to that twitciness

Here the thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

[Kakkela 3]

MrDeap said:

Didzis said:

The thing is I'm not really chasing miliseconds and my lines aren't perfect anyway. In the dailys I'm usually somewhere in the top 5-10%. Maybe the 270° would be faster, but I just like driving with 540°, I used to have a 200° wheel for a couple of years befeore and now I'm enjoying the higher roation and don't want to go back to that twitciness

Here the thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

I just doesn't matter really... 

[PaloSamo 0]

Didzis said:

The thing is I'm not really chasing miliseconds and my lines aren't perfect anyway. In the dailys I'm usually somewhere in the top 5-10%. Maybe the 270° would be faster, but I just like driving with 540°, I used to have a 200° wheel for a couple of years befeore and now I'm enjoying the higher roation and don't want to go back to that twitciness

Yeah, I was using 900 + softlock, but today I switched softlock off and set rotation to 540. Man, the difference is huge! It looks like a sweet spot for me either. The car isn't very twitchy, but reacts very rapidly to driver input. My times have gone down big time. I could lower rotation even more, but I feel like I would loose the feeling of driving a rally car (one-sitters tend to use low degrees rotation).

[Kakkela 3]

RinusRally said:

For less twitchy feeling you can always decrease or increase camber angle (differs per car), you can lower the suspension, etc. 

You could modify your steering rack in real life too, degrees are just that. Is it cheating when you change steering ratio in iRacing oval car setups? Hell no!

[KevM 44]

540 is the actual lock for a modern WRC car, so I don't see any issue for a player using it across the board, despite it not being 100% accurate.  Not really cheating

[Fedemaisonnave 48]

Porkhammer said:

Kakkela said:

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

That would be ideal if game is really simulated to almost perfection, but it isn't. Being pro in real life doesn't mean shit in simcade game.
Ofc they can tell how they think car feels off and give feedback to make it better, but their times can't be used as benchmark.

Pretty much this. Just because they're good in real life doesn't mean they're good at Dirt Rally.
Just use the finns as benchmarks and all is good!

There are Pro drivers that are naturally talented to drive, Give Rosenqvist(Loves sim racing) a blast and will beat anyone who do the stage legit, obviously someone can beat him but he will need to ultra hotlap to beat him.
And if it is a sim or a simcade or what the fuck it is if you drive freakingly Fast you will be Fast.
And @Kakkela try to beat Jake Dennis laptimes in PCars not stig times.
Obviously if you put Tänak who maybe dont even know what Dirt rally is will drive horribly.

[Kakkela 3]

Fedemaisonnave said:

Porkhammer said:

Kakkela said:

Fedemaisonnave said:

It is getting off-topic but getting a benchmark of a Pro driver will be the best way to keep the cheaters out, codies call Abbring or Any Pro and like Raceroom you can race against the pro's and any time much faster than theirs it is possible to be cheating also

That would be ideal if game is really simulated to almost perfection, but it isn't. Being pro in real life doesn't mean shit in simcade game.
Ofc they can tell how they think car feels off and give feedback to make it better, but their times can't be used as benchmark.

Pretty much this. Just because they're good in real life doesn't mean they're good at Dirt Rally.
Just use the finns as benchmarks and all is good!

There are Pro drivers that are naturally talented to drive, Give Rosenqvist(Loves sim racing) a blast and will beat anyone who do the stage legit, obviously someone can beat him but he will need to ultra hotlap to beat him.
And if it is a sim or a simcade or what the fuck it is if you drive freakingly Fast you will be Fast.
And @Kakkela try to beat Jake Dennis laptimes in PCars not stig times.
Obviously if you put Tänak who maybe dont even know what Dirt rally is will drive horribly.

I didn't talk anything about PCARS  :/
There are a lot of real life drivers in iRacing for example and them being IRL Pros means almost nothing. Simulators won't give you all of the feedbacks you get in real car so they can't just convert all of the skills/routines/reactions over.
Of course they can be both, good simracers and real drivers, but it isn't automatic.

[MrDeap 12]

Kakkela said:

MrDeap said:

Didzis said:

The thing is I'm not really chasing miliseconds and my lines aren't perfect anyway. In the dailys I'm usually somewhere in the top 5-10%. Maybe the 270° would be faster, but I just like driving with 540°, I used to have a 200° wheel for a couple of years befeore and now I'm enjoying the higher roation and don't want to go back to that twitciness

Here the thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

I just doesn't matter really... 

Because top time benchmark start at low rotation steering. At 540 with a Logitech steering wheel the turn in doesn't cut it.

The difference of corner speed between 270 & 540 is night & day.

[KevM 44]

Not everyone plays with a wheel, so it's all things to all men.  For some, full lock is but a thumb flick away

[Kakkela 3]

RinusRally said:

So the most cars are all above 540 degrees. So if you use 180/270/360/540 for all these cars you basically gain a advantage towards people who drove these cars how they have to be driven according to real life, and how Codemasters put them into the game and gamemechanics. So I do suggest we need either filters for leader boards of we need to separate the leaderboards. 

Also stated in this topic people do agree that less DOF gives the player an advantage so its on Codemasters side to also give constructive feedback in this topic. 

3-5 people here agreeing on something doesn't make it truth. @Porkhammer and @gheeD match each others times with totally different FFB and Roatation settings. Even I have matched them with higher degrees before they have had tons of practice on combos. It just isn't major factor here and it's out of CM's hands even if they tried to lock it because they can't bypass drivers just like that.

RinusRally said:

Does Codemasters want to create a realistic simulation enivoriment where people can experience rallying, history of rallying, the endurance aspact of rallying, and how older cars were driven back in day.. or does Codemasters want to gain customers and thus generating money with a community that want a sim but using non-realisim simulation gamemechanics and exploits where people gain the fastest time no matter what DOF, camera, etc etc. 

In my opinion if Codemasters want the second Dirt Rally is just a modded Dirt 1 2 3 for the arcade crowd that can brag on the internet they are good in Rally sims, but nobody knows they actually using low DOR's, low FFB, exteriorcams and more. 

Only thing I can think of CM doing from your complaint list is locked camera options for leagues, like they are in RX now. Nobody really cares if someone is using lower or higher FFB in competitive simracing, these forums are only place where I have heard someone complain about it.
These things just won't lose or gain any money for CM. Almost everybody that is interested in rallysims in our community have bought it regardless, it's in a state where it already beats RBR in funfactor, with some league modifications it could be good for serious leagues too. 

Only thing keeping some of my friends away from this is physics model, not how locked down settings are for comparable times.

[JZStudios 631]

@RinusRally, as you said that's from an old road book, there's quite a few newer cars. And if I use something dumb like 723, would that put me in my own classification? Then it would be cheating because I'm the fastest person using 723. This whole dor argument is getting ridiculous. We have actual problems with cheaters, and instead were talking about wheel rotation, which has been mentioned is adjustable in real life? (forgoing official rules) We're also going to complain about camera angles? How petty is that? Does getting a virtual time in an essentially meaningless platform designed pretty much solely for entertainment and wasting time mean that much to you? People in actual sims like FSX, iRacing, AC, and Rfactor don't bitch this much.