How are the car physics in Dirt rally?

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Kakkela said:

FFB in it's purest form is just physics telling how steering wheel react to front wheels and their traction/lack of it.

Not really (suspension comes into play in basically every single game), however even that means it has to translate itself into something that the steering wheel/FFB system understands. It's based on physics, but it's not part of them. If it would be part of physics, you would not be able to play the game with it turned off. Guess what? You can.
On top of that if FFB would be a part of physics then it would not be something you can adjust to your liking.

Here, a simple demonstration:
Physics -> VFB -> Brain
Physics -> script that translates physics into FFB action -> FFB -> Brain

griev0r said:

Ryu, question.

How can you be so opinionated on racing sims on every subject, yet you drive with a pad?  No, you don't get the feel for physics like you do with a wheel/pedal setup with proper FFB.  It's called a 'simulator' for a reason, no one drives cars with a xb360 controller.  They are great for couch relaxing gaming but there is no comparison to a wheel/pedal setup.  And another question, if you love sim racing and DR so much why haven't you invested in getting that type of setup?  The moment I tried Live for Speed in the early 2000's I immediately went out and bought a wheel.  I just don't understand the controller warriors if you truly have a passion for sim racing and have a little extra money to make it so much better, do it.

You basically answered this yourself. I don't have that little extra money to spend on a proper steering wheel. And I once had a crappy steering wheel, not gonna repeat that mistake again.

You get more information with FFB than with just VFB, of course. However like I mentioned before, because FFB is adjustable and it's a translation of the physics into an action of the steering wheel it's not an impartial way of judging the physics. If you have misinformation in the whole scheme, then you naturally won't have an objective view of the situation. Even if you have more information that way. VFB is based on a simple reaction. How the car reacts to user input and objects in the game (aka terrain, bumps etc.). Therefore a method of input makes little to no difference when judging physics this way. Steering wheel with disabled FFB would be the best way of getting an unbiased view of the physics, but I wouldn't say it would be an enjoyable way.

Now, to make myself perfectly clear. I'm not saying it's better to play without FFB. Of course it's better with it. What I'm saying is that if you want to talk about physics and physics alone, you have to disable FFB. FFB serves as a way to lie to your brain about physics that may or may not be bad, which is why it's such a personal thing. In fact, because everyone adjust FFB to their preference it should not be taken into discussion about physics as it's different for everyone, unlike physics which are the same for everyone.
I can elaborate even further. If your FFB would truly be a part of physics (which it isn't, but just for the sake of explaining) then by adjusting FFB you're modifying physics themselves. At that point you're no longer using the "vanilla" physics of the game but a modified version of it, therefore any discussion about physics is redundant.

[Kakkela 3]

RyuMakkuro said:

Kakkela said:

FFB in it's purest form is just physics telling how steering wheel react to front wheels and their traction/lack of it.

Not really (suspension comes into play in basically every single game), however even that means it has to translate itself into something that the steering wheel/FFB system understands. It's based on physics, but it's not part of them. If it would be part of physics, you would not be able to play the game with it turned off. Guess what? You can.
On top of that if FFB would be a part of physics then it would not be something you can adjust to your liking.

Here, a simple demonstration:
Physics -> VFB -> Brain
Physics -> script that translates physics into FFB action -> FFB -> Brain

griev0r said:

Ryu, question.

How can you be so opinionated on racing sims on every subject, yet you drive with a pad?  No, you don't get the feel for physics like you do with a wheel/pedal setup with proper FFB.  It's called a 'simulator' for a reason, no one drives cars with a xb360 controller.  They are great for couch relaxing gaming but there is no comparison to a wheel/pedal setup.  And another question, if you love sim racing and DR so much why haven't you invested in getting that type of setup?  The moment I tried Live for Speed in the early 2000's I immediately went out and bought a wheel.  I just don't understand the controller warriors if you truly have a passion for sim racing and have a little extra money to make it so much better, do it.

You basically answered this yourself. I don't have that little extra money to spend on a proper steering wheel. And I once had a crappy steering wheel, not gonna repeat that mistake again.

You get more information with FFB than with just VFB, of course. However like I mentioned before, because FFB is adjustable and it's a translation of the physics into an action of the steering wheel it's not an impartial way of judging the physics. If you have misinformation in the whole scheme, then you naturally won't have an objective view of the situation. Even if you have more information that way. VFB is based on a simple reaction. How the car reacts to user input and objects in the game (aka terrain, bumps etc.). Therefore a method of input makes little to no difference when judging physics this way. Steering wheel with disabled FFB would be the best way of getting an unbiased view of the physics, but I wouldn't say it would be an enjoyable way.

Now, to make myself perfectly clear. I'm not saying it's better to play without FFB. Of course it's better with it. What I'm saying is that if you want to talk about physics and physics alone, you have to disable FFB. FFB serves as a way to lie to your brain about physics that may or may not be bad, which is why it's such a personal thing. In fact, because everyone adjust FFB to their preference it should not be taken into discussion about physics as it's different for everyone, unlike physics which are the same for everyone.
I can elaborate even further. If your FFB would truly be a part of physics (which it isn't, but just for the sake of explaining) then by adjusting FFB you're modifying physics themselves. At that point you're no longer using the "vanilla" physics of the game but a modified version of it, therefore any discussion about physics is redundant.

There are games where visual animations don't match physics so your "VFB" is just as moot as you try to make FFB be. 

If Dirt introduces canned effects into FFB it doesn't automatically mean its the same in every game/simulator. Only thing you can adjust in good simulators and their FFB is min-force and gain, and those are needed just because not all wheels are equal on torque.
And as I told you, there is a way to dial out those unnecessary effects out of DiRT FFB to get just the forces front wheels are giving to steering column. Normally that doesn't leave much for the translation to fuck up.

[swanlee 0]

I only play with a PAD but I doubt it makes much difference SLRE simply feels like all the cars are hovercrafts. Those of whom that actually like SLRE what am I doing wrong? I've tried several cars and several tracks and they all feel like floaty hovercrafts. What settings do I have to tweak to put some weight on these cars and make them feel like they are on the road?

I mean it's bad enough they feel like hovercrafts the steering is also pretty twitchy and kind of laggy at the same time which is a really odd combination of factors to the car physics and to me makes the game unplayable. 

[MrDeap 12]

swanlee said:

I only play with a PAD but I doubt it makes much difference SLRE simply feels like all the cars are hovercrafts. Those of whom that actually like SLRE what am I doing wrong? I've tried several cars and several tracks and they all feel like floaty hovercrafts. What settings do I have to tweak to put some weight on these cars and make them feel like they are on the road?

I mean it's bad enough they feel like hovercrafts the steering is also pretty twitchy and kind of laggy at the same time which is a really odd combination of factors to the car physics and to me makes the game unplayable. 

I have 2 video with the telemetry using the gamepad. It will give you an idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGJAKSbcJ-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fx_MgB78Gk

[gheeD 15]

I think you missed my point Ryu... My reply that started this all was exactly about steering feeling. Dirt rally feels too loose, tires dont feel like they grip the asfalt enough (this not to say on ice the feeling is bad) and you dont get the sort of behaviour you see in WRC onboards. What I was saying with properly tuned steering wheel in SLRE I was able to get that feeling I can visually see from onboards from monte carlo. This feeling from the steering wheel ofcourse requires the physics underneath to play well with the ffb of the game. I think codemasters made this feeling worse with V2 which made everything feel like you are just drifting on the tarmac and it missed that tight feeling you have with stiff suspension on twisty tarmac roads like on monte carlo.


You really cant talk about that feeling when you have no experience with getting a feeling of the car through FFB and setting that FFB up in proper simulations and also in these games. (proper simulation as in Assetto Corsa, Iracing and rfactor (1 and 2, GSCE, automobilista) I trust those games i mentioned have best ffb when it comes to feeling the physics, and that is my aim to replicate in the game. Ofcourse you can achieve it and also mess it up completely in these games because there are so many settings that can "mute" the correct forces in the feedback. 

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Kakkela said:
There are games where visual animations don't match physics so your "VFB" is just as moot as you try to make FFB be.

I'd like to see an example, cause in all of my years of gaming I have not seen that happen. Not counting obvious glitches.

PS. Just because it doesn't leave much, doesn't mean it can't mess up. We're talking about translating in-game physics into a real life action of vibration and steering wheel movement. No matter how little information there will be, it's just not gonna be 100% accurate. Ever. It's still quite darn useful for just playing and enjoying the game though.

gheeD said:

I think you missed my point Ryu... My reply that started this all was exactly about steering feeling. Dirt rally feels too loose, tires dont feel like they grip the asfalt enough (this not to say on ice the feeling is bad) and you dont get the sort of behaviour you see in WRC onboards. What I was saying with properly tuned steering wheel in SLRE I was able to get that feeling I can visually see from onboards from monte carlo. This feeling from the steering wheel ofcourse requires the physics underneath to play well with the ffb of the game. I think codemasters made this feeling worse with V2 which made everything feel like you are just drifting on the tarmac and it missed that tight feeling you have with stiff suspension on twisty tarmac roads like on monte carlo.

I agree with the DR Monte Carlo part, though some cars, notably the Gen 2 Focus, can really give that grip feeling. What I don't agree is the SLRE part, as those cars make hovercraft feel like an ultra grippy machine.

And I've said enough on the FFB subject. It's great to have it in for playing the game, but it puts a bias on any statement about physics when it's being used. Simple as that.

[swanlee 0]

MrDeap said:

swanlee said:

I only play with a PAD but I doubt it makes much difference SLRE simply feels like all the cars are hovercrafts. Those of whom that actually like SLRE what am I doing wrong? I've tried several cars and several tracks and they all feel like floaty hovercrafts. What settings do I have to tweak to put some weight on these cars and make them feel like they are on the road?

I mean it's bad enough they feel like hovercrafts the steering is also pretty twitchy and kind of laggy at the same time which is a really odd combination of factors to the car physics and to me makes the game unplayable. 

I have 2 video with the telemetry using the gamepad. It will give you an idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGJAKSbcJ-k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fx_MgB78Gk

Thanks for these, the cars do seem to have weight from a visual perspective glad Dirt Rally is coming soon cause I'm still befuddled as to how anyone can enjoy Loeb Evo.

[Kakkela 3]

RyuMakkuro said:

Kakkela said:
There are games where visual animations don't match physics so your "VFB" is just as moot as you try to make FFB be.

I'd like to see an example, cause in all of my years of gaming I have not seen that happen. Not counting obvious glitches.

PS. Just because it doesn't leave much, doesn't mean it can't mess up. We're talking about translating in-game physics into a real life action of vibration and steering wheel movement. No matter how little information there will be, it's just not gonna be 100% accurate. Ever. It's still quite darn useful for just playing and enjoying the game though.

And I've said enough on the FFB subject. It's great to have it in for playing the game, but it puts a bias on any statement about physics when it's being used. Simple as that.

Proper FFB works by giving torque inputs to motor, those torque values are calculated from steering column in best case scenario. How can you mess that up? In Dirt you can dial out effects that aren't based on front wheels. Suspension however affects steering column in real life, but I have found out that it needs to be lower than self-aligning torque that is purely based on front wheel contact to ground.

As to where animations and physics don't match. isiMotor is famous for not animating correctly live axles. Niels Heusinkveld has assured us that Reiza's Supertrucks are correct physics wise but animations are wrong because of motor limits.
http://puu.sh/nRkUv/24921c105b.png
http://puu.sh/nRkI7/568bd18ff1.png

edit: for reference http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/rsz_img_4265-1140x641.jpg

[ZAMOY72 0]

Yeah...all rally/racing sims are best enjoyed with pad and chase cam - did I got it right?

In my opinion both DR and SLRE look strange from chase cam (but SLRE much worse than DR) - it just hurts my eyes but it is only a game and I would never imagine that anyone would try elaborate on game physics without a wheel and FFB on.

[swanlee 0]

Some of us just like to play with a game pad, yea I'm not ultra hardcore with pimped out wheels etc. but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy rally games and can't notice the difference in physics in games. Gamepad or Wheels, cars that drive like hovercrafts like in SLRE is a problem.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Kakkela said:
Proper FFB works by giving torque inputs to motor, those torque values are calculated from steering column in best case scenario. How can you mess that up? In Dirt you can dial out effects that aren't based on front wheels. Suspension however affects steering column in real life, but I have found out that it needs to be lower than self-aligning torque that is purely based on front wheel contact to ground.

As to where animations and physics don't match. isiMotor is famous for not animating correctly live axles. Niels Heusinkveld has assured us that Reiza's Supertrucks are correct physics wise but animations are wrong because of motor limits.
http://puu.sh/nRkUv/24921c105b.png
http://puu.sh/nRkI7/568bd18ff1.png

edit: for reference http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/rsz_img_4265-1140x641.jpg

You can mess that up simply because... you're still calculating something. And then you still have to adjust it to each steering wheel motor etc. So there's an immense amount of things where something can and will go wrong.
On top of that in DR the input for FFB is being taken from tires and suspension physics, not steering column. So even if that's just front wheels... it's still not steering column. And then you need to figure how much torque has to be applied by the motor etc. to provide a realistic representation of the steering wheel vibration/movement. All of those things can be adjusted, which just makes the entire FFB concept nothing more than a layer of lies to fool your brain. It works great for better experience while just playing but for "dissecting" the physics it's nothing more than an obstacle.

Also... how exactly that live axle animation is an issue? All I see is simply wheel not being turned when compared to a similar picture. Even if that's the case where the wheel is not being animated to turn, the entire cars body is what matters. Not tires and which direction they are facing. Even suspension doesn't play much of a role (when you play, you don't see the suspension working after all). As long as you can see how the car as a whole reacts to your input then it's perfectly fine. That is the essence of VFB which is why it's so damn effective and works on an unconscious level.

Therefore, like I said, show me where those things are not accurate? Oh wait, there literally isn't, because the whole car can't be doing something completely different from what physics are allowing, aside from glitches obviously or going outside of the possible simulation.

But I understand. There are some people who have that one thing that is the ultimate answer to everything, the Alpha and Omega etc. However you want to call it. If you can't accept a simple fact then by all means stick to your thing and stay away from me. Ignorance and ignorant people doesn't suit well with me.

ZAMOY72 said:

Yeah...all rally/racing sims are best enjoyed with pad and chase cam - did I got it right?

Pretty much... nope :p Games are best enjoyed in the way someone likes to enjoy those games the most :p Whatever that may be.

[Kakkela 3]

RyuMakkuro said:

Kakkela said:
Proper FFB works by giving torque inputs to motor, those torque values are calculated from steering column in best case scenario. How can you mess that up? In Dirt you can dial out effects that aren't based on front wheels. Suspension however affects steering column in real life, but I have found out that it needs to be lower than self-aligning torque that is purely based on front wheel contact to ground.

As to where animations and physics don't match. isiMotor is famous for not animating correctly live axles. Niels Heusinkveld has assured us that Reiza's Supertrucks are correct physics wise but animations are wrong because of motor limits.
http://puu.sh/nRkUv/24921c105b.png
http://puu.sh/nRkI7/568bd18ff1.png

edit: for reference http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/rsz_img_4265-1140x641.jpg

You can mess that up simply because... you're still calculating something. And then you still have to adjust it to each steering wheel motor etc. So there's an immense amount of things where something can and will go wrong.
On top of that in DR the input for FFB is being taken from tires and suspension physics, not steering column. So even if that's just front wheels... it's still not steering column. And then you need to figure how much torque has to be applied by the motor etc. to provide a realistic representation of the steering wheel vibration/movement. All of those things can be adjusted, which just makes the entire FFB concept nothing more than a layer of lies to fool your brain. It works great for better experience while just playing but for "dissecting" the physics it's nothing more than an obstacle.

Also... how exactly that live axle animation is an issue? All I see is simply wheel not being turned when compared to a similar picture. Even if that's the case where the wheel is not being animated to turn, the entire cars body is what matters. Not tires and which direction they are facing. Even suspension doesn't play much of a role (when you play, you don't see the suspension working after all). As long as you can see how the car as a whole reacts to your input then it's perfectly fine. That is the essence of VFB which is why it's so damn effective and works on an unconscious level.

Therefore, like I said, show me where those things are not accurate? Oh wait, there literally isn't, because the whole car can't be doing something completely different from what physics are allowing, aside from glitches obviously or going outside of the possible simulation.

But I understand. There are some people who have that one thing that is the ultimate answer to everything, the Alpha and Omega etc. However you want to call it. If you can't accept a simple fact then by all means stick to your thing and stay away from me. Ignorance and ignorant people doesn't suit well with me.

ZAMOY72 said:

Yeah...all rally/racing sims are best enjoyed with pad and chase cam - did I got it right?

Pretty much... nope :p Games are best enjoyed in the way someone likes to enjoy those games the most :p Whatever that may be.

All of my wats....
Of course it's modeled from tires, in every simulator... That's what sets apart most simulators from each other. Their better or worse tire model. But from that physics model they can tell how much force tire is giving and to what direction. That translates directly to force affecting steering wheel.
Amount of torque isn't even the important thing here, but that all those forces are in balance with each others. Of course it's not optimal when you can change all of the effects, but as I said before, in Dirt it's actually good thing because you can get rid of the questimated effects coming from rear wheels and artificial dampening trying to simulate weight for cheap wheels. Those effects aren't in proper simulators because its all dialed in properly. CM isn't trying to make simulator so it's good that they give options to run it how people like and still allow relatively nice FFB without too much canned effects.
It not fucking rocket science, why can't you get your head around it?

And to that animation thing, it's quite important to really know how your tires are sitting on the ground. You can't analyse camber setups or even know when your tire is rolled under you. That really hinders your ability to judge why the car is doing things.

[bogani 756]

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

[Kakkela 3]

bogani said:

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

But you do feel it through steering...

[KevM 44]

On another topic, I restarted my iRacing account this evening.  It's really bad.  Dead on if you are at 9/10ths, but if you push the grip, the physics fall apart.  Slides can't be caught or controlled in an intuitive way, but by a weird combo of actions that would get nowhere in a real car...

[Kakkela 3]

KevM said:

On another topic, I restarted my iRacing account this evening.  It's really bad.  Dead on if you are at 9/10ths, but if you push the grip, the physics fall apart.  Slides can't be caught or controlled in an intuitive way, but by a weird combo of actions that would get nowhere in a real car...

What car were you driving? New MX-5 is pretty cool skid machine really.

[KevM 44]

It was the MX, yeah, couldn't get it to catch slides at all.  I used to love the older one!  You used to be able the weirdly stomp the brake to straighten a slide, but they must have fixed that

[Kakkela 3]

"two-foot-magic-save" still exists, if you push gas and brake at the same time it kind of straightens out still.
For you maybe it's just break from the game and/or DiRT habits that are still kicking in and won't apply there, but I think only GT cars are hard to catch with just counter steer.

[bogani 756]

Kakkela said:

bogani said:

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

But you do feel it through steering...

I'm sorry sir, are you saying you feel weight shifting through your wheel in your IRL car? Please explain further. I'm curious.

[MrDeap 12]

bogani said:

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

The steering simply follow where the car front tires direction goes. The weight transfer happen when you steer in a direction. It's when you start to throw the car.

[bogani 756]

MrDeap said:

bogani said:

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

The steering simply follow where the car front tires direction goes. The weight transfer happen when you steer in a direction. It's when you start to throw the car.

Weight shifting is hardly felt through the steering wheel of your IRL car. You feel that with your body. This is why weight shifting needs to be felt through the FFB in our "simulators". We have no way to feel the weight shift through our body.

My point is that pure steering rack FFB that someone talked about, is not enough to get a feel for what the car is doing.

[KevM 44]

You do feel Weight Shift with your wheel in the car, of course you do!  But as you say, your body feels what's going on too, so you may not be as tuned in to the steering feedback IRL, but it happens for sure!

[shadow118 18]

bogani said:
We have no way to feel the weight shift through our body.

We actually do, it's just very expensive

[Kakkela 3]

bogani said:

Kakkela said:

bogani said:

FFB with information just coming from the steering rack would be kinda useless in our "games" wouldn't it? We still need to feel weight transfer through our wheels, as very few of us have motion rigs.

But you do feel it through steering...

I'm sorry sir, are you saying you feel weight shifting through your wheel in your IRL car? Please explain further. I'm curious.

Steering feel gets heavier when you have more weight on front wheels and other way around when it goes to back.

[bogani 756]

KevM said:

You do feel Weight Shift with your wheel in the car, of course you do!  But as you say, your body feels what's going on too, so you may not be as tuned in to the steering feedback IRL, but it happens for sure!

My point still stands, if the FFB that gets sent to our wheels relied on steering rack forces only, it wouldn't be enough.