Jump to content Jump to content

Competing with Ravenwest


Recommended Posts

hola said:
As I said that is not rubberbanding, they are measuring their pace just like all real world drivers do depending on where they are in a race.
not sure is serious

Would you rather they lapped at the exact same pace lap after lap like GT and Forza, as far as I'm concerned that s*** is boring. The fact they have tried to program in more realistic behaviour should be commended the issue is it's not going to work properly if they aren't going to simulate the A.I or the lap times they fake them doing aren't realistically possible for the player.

Remember the first GRID had what 20 A.I drivers in a time when Forza 2 could only muster 8! So it should be no surprise that consoles couldn't handle it, just look at what Assetto Corsa and Project Cars do to most mid-range CPU's when you ramp up the A.I count and those are more powerful than the PS4/XB1 CPU's.

Sure it can be infuriating but sometimes you have to respect the limitations that they were working within, now if their new engine has the same issues then I am done because they will have no excuse other than deciding graphics were more important than getting working A.I.

Link to post
Share on other sites
hola said:
As I said that is not rubberbanding, they are measuring their pace just like all real world drivers do depending on where they are in a race.
not sure is serious

Would you rather they lapped at the exact same pace lap after lap like GT and Forza, as far as I'm concerned that s*** is boring. The fact they have tried to program in more realistic behaviour should be commended the issue is it's not going to work properly if they aren't going to simulate the A.I or the lap times they fake them doing aren't realistically possible for the player.

Remember the first GRID had what 20 A.I drivers in a time when Forza 2 could only muster 8! So it should be no surprise that consoles couldn't handle it, just look at what Assetto Corsa and Project Cars do to most mid-range CPU's when you ramp up the A.I count and those are more powerful than the PS4/XB1 CPU's.

Sure it can be infuriating but sometimes you have to respect the limitations that they were working within, now if their new engine has the same issues then I am done because they will have no excuse other than deciding graphics were more important than getting working A.I.

Grid 1 only simulated 10 AI drivers at once. The times where there were more than 12 cars on-track (such as the Nurburgring 20-car touring car event), you could visibly see that the front half of the grid weren't even racing, they were just going around the track side-by-side. You could tell in the replays because the cars at the front of the grid didn't get wheelspin and you could see them sort of 'jerk' as they accelerated up. They also went round the first corner impossibly fast.

Grid 2 simulated them all. So does GAS, so at the least none of the cars are 'cheating' in the traditional sense.



What I don't get though is why they behave like this in GAS. They accelerate faster than the player's car can, but this is to counter their poor braking? Why not just ... make them brake better, and then run them without any of that advantage/rubberband/catchup? It's a logic that doesn't make sense to me.

One example I can give is hypercar racing around Barcelona. On the long, twisty section (loooooooong right hander, downhill right/left, another right, long left, 90* right back towards the city center), the AI brake at every single little change in camber and direction, even on Very Hard. But, on the 2nd grid trophy series, the Cat B touring car AI around red bull ring and hockenheim were ... they were too fast. I kept up only because Ravenwest rode their brakes and because Aaron was pretty much programmed to bin the car on lap 3. (he lost it under braking every time and I restarted that race like 10 times to try and get 'that start' and I never got it.)

The 'speed boost' mechanic is unnecessary. The AI evidently know how to brake and take the corners properly, because they do it when they get too far behind. That was my argument to begin with. I'd rather lose to Ravenwest because they're faster in the exact same car, braking better than me, as opposed to losing because they brake like crap but they can gain 2 seconds on me on the grid straight.


Hopefully Codemasters' next-gen (current-gen??) games feature AI that don't need to resort to these sorts of tricks in order to win. I know it's a simcade game, but still. I hate losing simply because my car is at a disadvantage, regardless of setups/upgrades. My fully-upgraded Audi RS5 should accelerate and handle exactly the same as theirs. :L
Link to post
Share on other sites

When I say simulated I mean the exact same things which govern the player are also the same things that effect the A.I which their engine just isn't capable of, it doesn't even load bits of the track you can't see which is why you can't switch to different cars. I still think the pace changing would be a great system if the A.I weren't faked to begin with because nobody drives flat out the entire time.

It's actually the best it's ever worked in GAS but fundamentally if you are going to fake the A.I you need to make sure they cannot go impossibly fast thus alerting the player to the fact they aren't real which they have failed to do.

I've done some more testing and I think they have just completely screwed the Cat B Touring cars, I mean it's laughable how much faster the A.I cars are. I just did Hockenheim club reverse and just off the start the other Ravenwest car takes about 5 car lengths out of me in the first 300m, it's like they originally intended the cars to be faster and then just forgot to redo the A.I. I had to knock qualifying down to hard because I did a 1.13.9 which was only good for 4th and the top time was 1.13.4!

Not to mention in timetrial and qualifying they are still faking the A.I times like F1 and their excuse then was they couldn't simulate it with fast forward, clearly BS if it's in GAS which doesn't even have fast forward.

I don't think they are doing it to make sure they win, they are trying to make the A.I competitive and then aren't properly testing it to make sure it's balanced on every track/car combination on each difficulty. A problem they wouldn't have if they actually simulated them the same as the player but obviously console limitations create issues which had better be fixed with the next one!

Link to post
Share on other sites
hola said:


Nathan Mckane in his Audi RS5 1.27.7..... :|.

That is not rubberbanding..., was It?

Nope there cars are just too fast in Class B Touring cars.

Just been doing some races in the Class B Open Wheel, the issue is even worse in those, they were getting impossible times on a number of tracks, Spa being the main culprit, posting 1.59.9 I couldn't even get close, with 2.02 being my best. Same overall pace issues as F1 because then the next two races I qualified 2.5s faster than the very hard A.I and crushed them in the race, really I have to wonder who they have testing and checking they are the right speed because it's really quite poor to have the same issue in every 360/PS3 gen game.

If they can't do it right by themselves I'm sure the community would be happy enough to have early access and find the issues for them if it meant we could get some bloody working A.I. It's bad enough they are like tanks and barely move if you hit them but you go flying if they barely touch you let alone the speed issues, it's made all the more noticeable how bad it is after having played online.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't have any trouble beating Ravenwest in the Formula B race on Spa. Kinda pulverised them on it, really.

Perhaps it helped that Aaron hit the cones at the top of Eau Rouge and barrel rolled off into the barriers (and the crash sort of frightened everyone else into slowing down enough for me to get ahead of Nathan for the next corner). Really, for that level 6 Grid championship I had no trouble taking on the AI on Hard, but those two cat B touring car races I literally could not beat them and even on Medium I struggled.


I wonder if it's not so much a pacing issue as it was done deliberately to make those Grid championships super-difficult.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The two Touring car races I could win on hard and I would say speed wise hard was the same as very hard when it's working properly the same with the Formula B races.

I couldn't believe that they were 3s fast around Spa so I did it again and on default settings the best I could get out of the car was a 2.01.8, still 3s off the pace, so I put downforce and diff all the way to the left for max speed and clocked a 1.59.6, 0.2s faster than the A.I so it looks like they have tried to adjust for tuning setups too, so working out what is actually going on is an absolute mine field.

The other thing is, they have actually bothered to model the fact that a car being drafted will also gain speed, so without solo I topped out at 184mph but with another car behind I got up to 197mph and from what I can tell the A.I don't need to properly draft you to get the speed boost they get it whenever you are near each other which only adds to their cars being faster.

Quite frankly there is too much going on for them to be able to fake it the way they are without it going wrong, they NEED to simulate A.I next time out as it doesn't work properly in any of the Ego engine games.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, now I've tried racing on Hard in a few more events where the A.I are overpowered and they do in fact match the same times the Very Hard A.I were doing whenever they want, sometimes it's straight away, sometimes it's on lap to catch up and sometimes it's the entire race so as I suspected it's broken on lower difficulties and does look like rubberbanding as it can be a 4s difference in time compared with qualifying.
Link to post
Share on other sites
'so I put downforce and diff all the way to the left for max speed and clocked a 1.59.6, 0.2s faster than the A.I' You seem to be contradicting yourself? You have just demonstrated it is possible to match or better the 'impossible' times of the AI so where's the problem?
Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems Ravenwest get faster each tier, as they seem slightly harder to beat. I play on Very Hard difficulty with assists off bar ABS & in Tier 2 Open Wheel they seemed too fast for certain tracks. To me, it's at its worst at Instanbul, where I noticed a few details. ---If you don't qualify at the front your only real hope of catching Ravenwest is if you somehow catch them in the first few corners. If you haven't caught Westley's draft by, let's say turn 4 you have no hope. ---They have an uncanny ability to corner faster than what the Lola allows, at the complex of fast left handers at the back of Instanbul Scott will take them without slowing down, Westley will follow in his draft (& his cornering abilities aren't affected at all) but if I try that same technique I just fly off the track, allowing Ravenwest to pull away on the following straight. ---Speaking of straights not only are Ravenwest faster outright on the straights, but I've noticed that if Westley is drafting Scott (like he always was) Westley will gain speed but he won't pass as Scott seems to gain a power boost. The end result is that both cars will simply leave you behind on straights. I do believe some tweaks & adjustments are in order...
Link to post
Share on other sites
'so I put downforce and diff all the way to the left for max speed and clocked a 1.59.6, 0.2s faster than the A.I' You seem to be contradicting yourself? You have just demonstrated it is possible to match or better the 'impossible' times of the AI so where's the problem?

One instance, the same attempts around most other tracks proved unfruitful and honestly I don't see how they can expect us to tune the cars each and every race when they don't even provide the option to save setups, it's bad enough as is that they are there in a simcade game.

To clarify the only reason it improved my time on Spa was because there are so many straights on Spa that the extra 20mph made a huge difference to overall time. The A.I basically have cars which have the top speed of a car with no downforce and long gears but the acceleration and cornering of one with short gears and full downforce, it's bloody stupid.

I was racing Bathurst earlier and on the last downhill straight I caught and overtook the A.I who I could hear hitting the rev limiter as I passed just as I did before passing, the next lap I again top out at around 175mph and the same car blasts past me, now not hitting the rev limiter. Honestly when the A.I works it's very good but it's a complete mess when it doesn't, completely ruins the immersion when they are doing things that are impossible for the player to match.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Well I'm not scrutinizing the AI as much as others so I'm not seeing too much wrong with it but I can't disagree with those, like yourself, that are finding issues. I just know video games have come a long way in the last 40 years so I really appreciate just how good CM's AI is currently to the point that I'm not missing online at all and I'm not surprised it isn't quite perfect yet :)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it only bothers me because when you spend an hour perfecting a track and car, hitting times that would put you in the top 10 on the leaderboards and then go into qualifying to find the A.I going 1s faster you can't help but be pissed off with the fact you wasted time because you were never going to be able to beat them.

I've now turned it down to hard to make qualifying easier so that I don't have to bother practising to go 0.5s faster for pole but it makes absolutely no difference to their lap times in races because I'm still going the same speed, it just lets you pull away a little further before they go back up to max speed. Medium however doesn't seem to suffer this issue from what I briefly tried they are just hilariously slow compared to hard/very hard.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That's weird.

Normally the AI's qualifying laps are about 2 seconds slower than the best laps they do in races for me. :L

Everything they do is dependant on what the player is doing, so the faster you drive the faster they drive. The same thing happened in F1, so in qualifying as an example if you did a qualifying lap and then drove really slowly back to the pits so it didn't fast forward, the A.I would get much slower lap times than if you did 2 or 3 consecutive laps.

Essentially each difficulty has a speed boundary of say 1.20-1.25 that they will drive within based on what the player on the players speed, which is why people think all their ego engine games have rubberbanding as the react to the player. Ideally you'd want them to be adjusting speed based in each other as well but the fact they don't even model their physics the same as the players means it's out of the question. The one thing it does do better than F1 at least is not have the slower cars able to do the same speeds as the fastest ones if they were near the front of the grid.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd rather they just drive at a pace indifferent to that of the player's car.

I know that it's to allow the player to keep up/keep challenged, but it's also unrealistic. A whole grid of cars in real touring cars will not speed up or slow down because one specific driver in the race is ahead or behind them. It's why I liked Race '07 so much. If you put the difficulty too high and couldn't keep up with the AI - too bad, you were boned.


I know this is a long stretch but I wonder if Codemasters could patch the game to add a difficulty where the AI drive like that - same physics as the player, and they drive indifferent to the player's position in terms of pace? I wonder what sorts of lap-times they'd set ... probably similar ones to what they do now, but it'd be interesting to see what Codemaster's code and methodology that 'taught' them the tracks will do if they drive the car like the player can. A simulation-mode, if you will. Forced x5 race lengths too.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...