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The ethics of autosport. and gaming in general.

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I recently joined a racing team on autosport, after spending time hanging out with them, and found a new group of friends who put an emphasis on good, clean,fast and fair racing, with an emphasis on fun. Great bunch of guys, with some very talented individuals.
  
Turns out, our idea of fun is regarded by some as a form of "boosting" or cheating.
 
Another team's leader has questioned some of our race formats, and complained to codemasters about us.
  Knowing as you all do what public lobbies are like most of the time, i'm sure the majority of players spend time racing with friends of similar skill in your own lobbies where you can be free to have fun at your own pace, take breaks to chat or use the loo without a countdown to the next event constantly running.
 This same person has had mutual aquaintances pop into our xbl parties to spy on what it is we do, and report back to him, then proceed to try and tell us how we are "cheating and boosting"
 I find it extremely "interesting "that shortly after discovering how we run our events, this very same team was able to make very large gains in team xp and overtake the points lead.
 Now, before I even joined my team, I raced against this other team several times, and was less than impressed by the lack of respect they show other cars on the track. I imagine they believe in the "rubbing is racing" and "protecting the racing line" mentality.
 
Sure enough, after painting my cars with team livery, the rate of contact initiated by their drivers increased.
 
Rather than message their leader in the heat of the moment, I chose to let it slide, and find other online lobbies to race in.
Until I had an incident with the team leader himself, who proceeded to jump straight into our party after the race and immediately accuse me of deliberately "taking him out" I guess being on the racing line ahead of him while turning into the turn when he tried to jump inside was wrong of me?
Anyway, he went from making false accusations to blatant insults and vague threats, and now supposedly his whole team has been warned to look out for me.
Which leads to the point of this post, ethics.
  Is it really so important to be #1 on the leaderboards that it's become ok to spy on other teams, make false reports to developers about other teams conduct, and be verbally abusive towards other players? To request that the very way the game records xp points be changed to better suit the way team X plays vs the way team Y plays?

Is that the team you would want to be associated with, or race against?

My name is Rick, my gamertag on xbl is ratrod dad e O, and i'm proud to say that I race with team CGS. They're a great bunch of guys who are here to have fun,
More importantly, we have ethics
If that means we won't always be in the top slot on the leaderboard, oh well.
But you can be damn sure we're way more fun to be with than those other guys. Any day of the week.
Come find us for a good clean time, all we ask is you mike up, and treat other racers with respect.
Oh, and being able to brake for the the 1st turn is always good too :p



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Hi Ratrod.....  Firstly are you same Ratrod that I had some great races with on Grid 2?

I am aware of the situation that you describe having read posts on here not mention the odd snippets of gossip online.  I really wouldn't let it bother you !!!  I know that you CGS guys used to spend alot of time in custom lobbys on Grid 2 and it isn't boosting or anything of the type.  It's exactly as you say... spending time with your friends having fun.  If that's a crime then I'm also guilty having spent the last couple of nights, with some friends, creating collisions off lobbys so I can get up to speed with the game.

As far as most of us are concerned those XP leaderboards are meaningless anyway.  The more members a team has and the more hours they play, the more XP they clock up.  If my cat were to play the game solidly for a month she could probably get to number 1 lol.

As for the rubbing is racing mentality, I have also encountered this with the team you speak of (not all of them I hasten to add as there as the majority of them are fair players) to the extent of actually being pushed off the apex by one of them.  I may not be anywhere near as fast as some of them but that doesn't give them the right to push me out of the way.  I've also had abusive messages from a certain French member of the team when he was kicked by the rest of the lobby the other night (and I didn't even vote on him lol).

I know things can get quite competitive out there and occasionally tempers flare so I wouldn't let any of this bother you.... it just seems like very poor sportsmanship to accuse people of cheating because they are beating you.  




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Smash them in the wall, vote to kick on the players who are Not Worth Racing.... Problem solved. The diving up the inside and using you, its a classic move by this particular team. They can deny it till the end of time. It's been done to me.....only I got the person back, and smashed him all over the track. Grid 2 was good for that lol. @Ratrod were you told to " get out of my way" by this team? They like to do that.

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I just don't see any 'fun' at all in the collision-off-1-lap-around-an-oval-race-to-boost-cash-and-xp-to-gain-expensive-cars-and-upgrades-quicker mentality, but each to their own... 8-X

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‌ @DJ007‌ I agree, 1 lap round the oval isnt my idea of fun either but 4/5laps driving an A class tourer round Spa GP in a chilled out, collisions off lobby, so we can learn the track without getting slammed into by idiots, is... As you say, each to their own :-)

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nice to finally get a chance to speak with a CGS. i have raced against some of your drivers, your sportsmanship must be teammate to teammate, as the two CGS who could keep up with me, well, lets just say they defended. i got a few last second blocks, very common on xbox and very illegal on a real race track, but i never got punted, killed or ran off the road, which i thank you and your team for. repair costs are too high to keep wrecking. i appreciated the practice, you guys forced me to make hard overtakes, and i never got killed for making an overtake, much better then the frenchmen i tend to get put against. once my gamesave corruption issue is fixed, id love to get in more races with you guys, maybe even race against more of the team. ~ Alex98sc10-PSR(pro speed racing)

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ratrod said:
i'm sure the majority of players spend time racing with friends of similar skill in your own lobbies
I’d be surprised if it’s anything like the majority… in ten years of online gaming I don’t think I’ve ever done that (not least because most of Europe has gone to bed by the time I can get anywhere near my Xbox!)

That said, it’s certainly hard to imagine why anyone would get so upset about other people playing the game however they like, as long as they’re playing within the framework Codemasters provides and not actively spoiling anybody else's enjoyment of it.

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Hey Fluke, I remember you from g2, I wasnt with cgs then, and got fed up with the constant demo derby that was prevalent in online lobbies. 
  I didn't mean to imply that the entire team in question drove a certain way by any means, of course I understand that everyone's an individual and will drive their own way.

RTAnoskills, you've been fun to race against as well, i'd rather not resort to that, but I am human after all and will only tolerate so much abuse before retaliating.

DJ007  Collisions off isn't my cup of tea, i've yet to try a race like that. Although I imagine it might be a way to teach someone how to get around a track.

Jerrymackturner, apparently there are a lot of people who put a great deal of value/importance in xb leaderboards. Go figure?

AlexPSCE, glad to hear you've enjoyed the competition. As far as blocks go, I can't speak to something I haven't witnessed, but normally, if we're in a party and we see someone talking in game, we switch to game chat so that we can hear passes being called. Hope codies can get your save fixed soon, but you're welcome to join us anytime !

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Yes we are human, and none of us perfect. But like you say, there is only so much your going to take, before its payback time. If it's someone who can be clean when or with who they want, and they take me out, I have zero tolerance for that.

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Yes we are human, and none of us perfect. But like you say, there is only so much your going to take, before its payback time. If it's someone who can be clean when or with who they want, and they take me out, I have zero tolerance for that.
but where do YOU draw the line? if there is contact, do you ever blame yourself? if someone is going for a pass, and locks up the brakes, do you take it personally an get revenge when you get the chance? at the end of the day, things happen, especially in a racing game where, unless you are in a chase view, its a hassle to see what is aroun you. contact is made, and everyone blames the other party. moral of the story? if there is contact, keep driving and discuss it later, as chances are you are both partially responsible, and why ruin the rest of the event by retaliating for something that could have been an accident, or worse, retaliating for an incident that was your fault, and you just werent paying enough attention to realise. if you want NO contact, join a time attack lobby, we'll keep racing, and yes rubbing and pushing at times.

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XP leaderboards merely mean you play more/boost more it does not mean you are better.  How can I ever compete to be better than people who host private rooms with friends and run 1 lap races on Indy over and over and over?

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by running one lap races of washington sprint :P. in all seriousness, if you somehow win every race, you WILL beat the boosters eventually. however, the best fun way to get xp is to get your friends, and yes host a private lobby, and run your favorite classes, favorite tracks. you will all get xp for racing, and by keeping the classes and tracks rotating, everyone gets a chance to win. more wins. more xp. more races. more fun. its a win win win win!

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Gentleman, please understand that the NWL shall be considered Switzerland. In all seriousness though. I have raced door to door with most everyone in these clubs that played over in Grid 2, & I cannot think of any problem that lasted longer than a couple races. I try to look out for all of these guys and I get the feeling they do the same for me. If some bone-head decides to rough up one of these guys I make sure to do what I can to help them out w/o tipping my hand.

I know I am all over the place, (very stressful day). But what fun and the point if we all were in the same club? Embrace the different club's and enjoy the competition! And look out for each other, spread some love or trade paint. Okay I am done. I have no clue where this came from, or for that matter where it is heading.....

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@alexPSCE I'm always in chase view. So I can see what's going on around me. If someone hits me and blames their view, that's their fault for racing online using a restrictive view. In order to race cleanly you have to know who's where. Bumper cam, and in car view don't give you that ability. However a good player knows who's where regardless of their view. And yes, if it's my fault I'm the first to say sorry, and to wait and allow that person to carry on. I expect the same in return. Its when I'm not shown the same level of respect back that people have problems with me. E.g if someone runs me off the track because they don't brake in time, so they use me to get themselves around the turn. Then drive off into the sunset. If it's OK to bin me and drive off, then it's OK for me to do it back. ;)

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@alexPSCE I'm always in chase view. So I can see what's going on around me. If someone hits me and blames their view, that's their fault for racing online using a restrictive view. In order to race cleanly you have to know who's where. Bumper cam, and in car view don't give you that ability. However a good player knows who's where regardless of their view. And yes, if it's my fault I'm the first to say sorry, and to wait and allow that person to carry on. I expect the same in return. Its when I'm not shown the same level of respect back that people have problems with me. E.g if someone runs me off the track because they don't brake in time, so they use me to get themselves around the turn. Then drive off into the sunset. If it's OK to bin me and drive off, then it's OK for me to do it back. ;)
then i understand where you are coming from, and i agree, sometimes. most drivers run into the sunset fearing retaliation, or losing their money. poor excuse, but its used and abused. as far as views, i run bonnet or cockpit, but if im racing someone close ill keep flicking the camera back and sideways to see where people are- even if that means a compromised corner. seems to me you're the kind of person we need more of, now if only we can teach the frenchmen and germans the keep it clean!

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The only issue is that binning them doesn't usually help you. I had a collision the other night in a 787B endurance race where the guy in front braked too hard for a corner and I hit him up the backside. Not intentional but it happened. I was really glad to see he didn't feel the need to ram me off the track in response. I also saw he had a spin due to a lag hit on my car (I never felt or saw the hit) but he was coming close to the inside of the corner, didn't get alongside and I took the racing line through it. On the minimap he spun out, but rejoined pretty quick.

Being in Australia kinda causes that a lot :(

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@scottishwildcat:  Quote: "I’d be surprised if it’s anything like the majority… in ten years of online gaming I don’t think I’ve ever done that (not least because most of Europe has gone to bed by the time I can get anywhere near my Xbox!)

That said, it’s certainly hard to imagine why anyone would get so upset about other people playing the game however they like, as long as they’re playing within the framework Codemasters provides and not actively spoiling anybody else's enjoyment of it."


This kind of comment is typical for you and I cannot endorse this whatever-is possible in game -is allowed mentality. What is this? Survival of the fittest? Disgraceful! You should be ashamed.

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Ah @ratrod you talk some crap. For a start I was passing you down a straight. Yes a straight, with plenty more speed than you, i were half way past your car and you turned into me smashing me In the wall. Then I get an abusive message from you? Which I have proof of. And as for this boosting crap, it were an accident that I found out about your 1lap, 5 event lobbies packed with as many CGS as possible. Then I found out off two more of your members that you guys were doing it. Not all of you. I must admit, I have gained some good friends In CGS. I simply sent a message to your team leader asking to play fair and I get hurled another load of abuse. Right, as for you accusations of us boosting now, we have a properly organised team. Coming on autosport on 3 different time scales. Europe, USA and Australia. All 3 different time zones. The xp is constantly coming in because of this. We have never gained 100k in 20 mins? That is wrong. And yeah people might just say the club lb don't matter but at the end of the day that's what a club is for if you want to take the game a little more seriously than others So what? If anybody knows NWR they will know were a bunch of clean, persistent racers. Yeah we might have a couple of angry people in the team but which team doesn't? Not having the likes of you trying to bad mouth us man. Your clumsy, you make a lot of errors. If you make an error In the path of someone faster then what do you expect? If you get knocked it's your own fault for your clumsiness.

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alexPSCE said:
@alexPSCE I'm always in chase view. So I can see what's going on around me. If someone hits me and blames their view, that's their fault for racing online using a restrictive view. In order to race cleanly you have to know who's where. Bumper cam, and in car view don't give you that ability. However a good player knows who's where regardless of their view. And yes, if it's my fault I'm the first to say sorry, and to wait and allow that person to carry on. I expect the same in return. Its when I'm not shown the same level of respect back that people have problems with me. E.g if someone runs me off the track because they don't brake in time, so they use me to get themselves around the turn. Then drive off into the sunset. If it's OK to bin me and drive off, then it's OK for me to do it back. ;)
then i understand where you are coming from, and i agree, sometimes. most drivers run into the sunset fearing retaliation, or losing their money. poor excuse, but its used and abused. as far as views, i run bonnet or cockpit, but if im racing someone close ill keep flicking the camera back and sideways to see where people are- even if that means a compromised corner. seems to me you're the kind of person we need more of, now if only we can teach the frenchmen and germans the keep it clean!
I too run hood or one of the 2 cockpit cams. I do not do this because it heightens the feel of realism. I do this because I have a hard time hitting my apex's or mark's. So I end up pushing, through corners. 

I too try to keep an eye on the other cars as much as I possibly can. Either on the mini-map or the look around cams. You can always tell when someone is looking back at you or someone else. Because their car will go too ghost in (appearance only) the person's car seems to also seems to brake check or something. So they are not lagging or anything. They are just looking for you. Whether they use this for good or bad it is up to the individual player. 

For me I generally use interior when the car is left hand drive. I use hood cam when it is on the right because it just makes it easier for me to figire out what side of the road my car is on. And it has nothing to do with "proper" side of the wheel argument. It is just what I feel more comfortable.

Also as far as the other nationalities being rude or whatever. I run with the United States flag so I sometimes get smacked around for that reason only. From most of the world. Except for the folks I have a good rapport with from around the world. 

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Its a shame there are no PGR4 style Team Events/Championship events on this game.... that would really make things "interesting" lol The leaderboards on PGR were pretty good too. It was based on a "true rank" system so you got points for winning and beating ppl of a higher rank and lost points for losing.... On the whole it was fair reflection of player skill and IMHO better than an XP based system.

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MarkVenom said:
@scottishwildcat:  Quote: "I’d be surprised if it’s anything like the majority… in ten years of online gaming I don’t think I’ve ever done that (not least because most of Europe has gone to bed by the time I can get anywhere near my Xbox!)

That said, it’s certainly hard to imagine why anyone would get so upset about other people playing the game however they like, as long as they’re playing within the framework Codemasters provides and not actively spoiling anybody else's enjoyment of it."


This kind of comment is typical for you and I cannot endorse this whatever-is possible in game -is allowed mentality. What is this? Survival of the fittest? Disgraceful! You should be ashamed.

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LMAO 

I knew they were crying about CGS. :((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((:((


=)) =)) =)) =))

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Ah @ratrod you talk some crap. For a start I was passing you down a straight. Yes a straight, with plenty more speed than you, i were half way past your car and you turned into me smashing me In the wall. Then I get an abusive message from you? Which I have proof of. And as for this boosting crap, it were an accident that I found out about your 1lap, 5 event lobbies packed with as many CGS as possible. Then I found out off two more of your members that you guys were doing it. Not all of you. I must admit, I have gained some good friends In CGS. I simply sent a message to your team leader asking to play fair and I get hurled another load of abuse. Right, as for you accusations of us boosting now, we have a properly organised team. Coming on autosport on 3 different time scales. Europe, USA and Australia. All 3 different time zones. The xp is constantly coming in because of this. We have never gained 100k in 20 mins? That is wrong. And yeah people might just say the club lb don't matter but at the end of the day that's what a club is for if you want to take the game a little more seriously than others So what? If anybody knows NWR they will know were a bunch of clean, persistent racers. Yeah we might have a couple of angry people in the team but which team doesn't? Not having the likes of you trying to bad mouth us man. Your clumsy, you make a lot of errors. If you make an error In the path of someone faster then what do you expect? If you get knocked it's your own fault for your clumsiness.
Interesting, I was quite careful to not mention any names, as Loore requested we not "name and shame| on the forum, yet here you are, once again, blaming me for your mistake.
Guilty conscience, perhaps?
Perhaps no one's ever explained the concept of overtaking to you? 
 The overtaking driver carries the responsability to ensure the manouver is completed in a manner which is safe to both vehicles.
Perhaps you should give this a read, seeing as you seem unwilling to listen to reason.

Carrying more speed does not automatically grant you the right to any position on the track, @Charger. 
 It's time to stop taking your gamertag so literally. Judging from the replies above, your club's reputation isn't quite as untarnished as you would have some believe.
What you refer to as a straight was actually the the turn-in point for turn 18 at spa, as we were running the track backwards. It's perfectly logical for me to turn in there as I would be turning to the right to follow the racing line.

If you'll recall, this post is about ethics.
 You claimed in a message to CGS leadership that you had spies in our lobbies, and now you claim you learned accidently.

You accuse us of boosting, yet everyone knows it's common behavior amongst nwr drivers to retire if they aren't among the top 3 or 5, thus artifically inflating your club stats.

Is that the persistance you refer to?

Then, when nwr does something very similar in regards to lobbies, you claim it's TACTICS?
Why is it all day yesterday various nwr members would pop into our lobbies, yet leave before the race would start, if not to keep tabs on us?
Perhaps, as principle, you should concentrate on running your own team, and stay out of trying to dictate how cgs plays. Maybe then, you wouldn't receive angry messages in return from lenard.

Please, be my guest, post the 1st message I sent you. I've nothing to hide from you, codemasters, or anyone. After 2 days of being knocked about by your team, having a brand new car wrecked by a team principle who should be leading by example and driving with respect for the other players in the game made me lose my cool.
But, at least i'm able to admit when i'm wrong without resorting to calling someone names like, oh, ....clumsy?
Ethics
Perhaps they're something you could benefit from working on, along with overtakes.

P.S @LOORE
I understand that there is currently an investigation ongoing by codemasters regarding the whole leaderboard/xp deal. One hopes that it is not just restrictive to any specific team, but the entire leaderboard itself, and the manner in which teams are accruing points.
 We @TEAM C.G.S welcome any investigations into wrong doings, and are quite prepared to co-operate fully in said investigation, and would welcome publication of the results thereof.


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It's just a shame that everything mentioned there is completely irrelevant considering the 'occurance' happened after section 17 on your layout photo of spa.... And as for retiring I'm sure it automatically reduces you to the lowest position possible in the race? You see, it's logical to retire from a race when you get wrecked into a wall. You know, when you have that completely offset steering? And one of your tyres (maybe more) explode.... The way I see it, you were to slow for the section and with the lack of intelligent guys in the room, (because it were a bad lobby) I am certainly not taking your 'advice' on how to pass. The space were there, I took it, you wrecked me out.... If I were to have put my breaks on I would have been wrecked by someone else. So if anyone is to blame here it is you for not being upto speed. You weren't in the flow. If this were from a real life perspective then I'm sorry but people would have died haha. Now,, spies? Ive actually been in a party with your leader today to sort out any issues, it's just a shame that someone like yourself have to raise more issues. Good job

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