Just when you thought it couldn't get any better !

[bogani 756]

dynt said:

JZStudios said:

bogani said:

The clubsport shifter will make your bicep like Arnolds? Ha, good one dgeesio. If you think it's an effort you should probably get out more ;)
At max tension the h-shifter feels good but it also makes the SQ to get stuck now and then when you shift. Still, I would like even more resistance with the h-shifter.

And yes, you probably won't be faster but being fast isn't the all mighty goal for everyone like you. Some of us enjoy immersion more than WR's. 

How hard is it to put your car in gear? It shouldn't need to be forcefully slammed in... I accidentally made a dirty joke...
My shifters set to how it should be, and all the (granted fairly limited) manual cars I've been in have about that same amount of low level force to put in gear.
As to Dgeesi0, I have two things to say, first, my clubsport feels about perfect for the realistic amount of force it takes to get into and out of gear, with a fairly adequate amount of self centering.
Second,

dgeesi0 said:

just cause its heavy and stiff doesnt make it better !

I bet she'd argue otherwise.

As going back to Dynt, theres definitely still a switch in there, seems like the biggest change is the cones that fit into grooves for the selected gears, and honestly I don't see what that helps to improve. And if you're using a TH8A shifter, I'm inclined to agree that it's basically garbage. You all know my history with TM, and I got the TH8A and for the little I messed with it, the clubsport is leaps and bounds better in build quality and not feeling like a cheap piece of crap. The TH8A was okay, but felt nothing like an actual shifter, the clubsport does. Just for reference, to make sure were talking about the same thing, this is the Clubsport shifter, I'm not talking about the cheap Porsche plastic one.

And the picture makes it look small, this thing is Facking huge. It's almost bigger than my wheel.

Well i suppose logic would dictate spending 300 bucks as opposed to spending 1200 would be a sensible step.I have managed to collect 4 sequential shifters so selling a couple and buying a club sport might be a sensible move, but looking down at a box with quaife written on it i suppose generates all sort of nostalgia, but on the basis of spending 1200 bucks on a shifter before the Mrs gets her new kitchen is a tad optimistic, but 300 is manageable. 

As a side note is there anything in between shifter wise better than clubsport ?

Nothing that offers both h-pattern and SQ in one shifter. Not that I know of anyways.

[JZStudios 631]

Yeah, the clubsport definitely needs a sturdy base. I had it on my cheap Chinese wheel stand and every shift, especially in SQ and/or the handbrake would make the stand wobble. The thing weighs like 10 pounds. I currently have it on my new wheelstand pro after the Chinese one broke, and it's set up on a thin sliver of metal designed for goofy babby plastic shifters and now it just kind of continuously wobbles, but WheelstandPro just put out a shifter addon that should be more stable.

My biggest gripe with the clubsport is mainly that I can't do 7th gear. And it's got a push down lock for R and 7, which is realistic sure, but it also makes my stand wobble. To do 7th gear I need to buy a $20 USB dongle, and the table clamp is like $30.
Setting it in SQ mode, maybe it changes with the USB dongle, but it takes up the same button as 1 and 2, which is weird since it goes into 3 and 4, so you have to change your controls real quick, but still massively faster than the TH8A.

Pro's on the other hand,
I've taken this thing apart to see if I could figure out how to remove the push down lock, and they weren't kidding when they say 100% metal construction, everything is either solid aluminum (It's not Aluminium BTW, spellcheckers highlighting it.) or steel. I seriously doubt you could ever break this thing.
It has slots and T-nuts for mounting on all four sides, plus some threaded holes on the bottom. This is frankly just super useful so you can mount it almost anywhere. I also took advantage of that and used a piece of plywood to mount my HB to the side of my shifter.
Like Dgeesy said, the tension is adjustable, but the SQ is always significantly stiffer than H-pattern, so getting my H-pattern feeling realistic, makes the SQ super stiff, and I haven't really tried any actual SQ to know how they feel.

I really do think its pretty damn good bang for your buck. The only other shifters I've really seen are the DSD SQ shifters, which are $300 alone, and actually looking at it, it's just a stick between two rubber bushings with a central pivot point and two rocker switches on the side. Hell, I could make that. The boards not even hard to make. I sure hope he's getting those CNC cut and not just 3D printed for that price.... oh, it is just 3d printed, and not CNC'd aluminum? Okay, never mind then, moving on. (I could totally make that at home, if only we could get our printer working again...)

[dynt 0]

Some good info here lads, its a bit depressing that there seems to be a general consensus that good kit equals slower is this the same story for all those iracing types.
I have a decent selection of sequential shifters which i have picked up second hand including a dsd, a Heusinkveld Sim Shifter, a couple of frex shifters one i bought as a bag of bits and rebuilt with twin motorbike valve springs inner and outer which definitely feels like the real deal.
For me most of the enjoyment is trying to get close to the real life feeling and am just persevering trying to build up pace while not trying to deviate from realism to much.

[dgeesi0 305]

if you enjoy the realism of the kit and you buy it for that purpose then just enjoy it. :)

some do upgrade just top try and be faster so this thread will help some who maybe teetering on buying something very expensive only to be slower.so it benefits all by people giving their own experiences.

some of the handbrakes and gear sticks could as pointed out be made by amateur people with a bit of mechanical knowledge.probably get good results aswell and save a packet of money.

[bogani 756]

I started a thread in the tech section but as hardly noone reads there I'll just ask here.

I always have to unplug my Clubsport shifter to get the PC to boot. It won't start when the usb adapter is plugged in. I guess it tries to boot from the usb? It's annoying as hell as I have to recalibrate the shifter everytime.

Oh, and I also always have to unplug and connect my T500RS after I start the PC otherwise it won't be recognized.

Any idea?

[TonyRickard 17]

dynt said:

For me most of the enjoyment is trying to get close to the real life feeling and am just persevering trying to build up pace while not trying to deviate from realism to much.

For me what engages me most with sim racing is that we can set our personal goals and there is no right answer what they are. I love the competition aspect, I have raced in leagues where I am not ashamed to say they were the key event of the week. I also love the way sim racing hardware has developed in the twenty odd years I have been doing it. When I started just having a wheel and pedals was seriously out there! I think it is great that we have a growing number of high end options. Yet you don't need them to be competitive whilst they enhance the enjoyment for many.

[versedi 39]

bogani said:

I started a thread in the tech section but as hardly noone reads there I'll just ask here.

I always have to unplug my Clubsport shifter to get the PC to boot. It won't start when the usb adapter is plugged in. I guess it tries to boot from the usb? It's annoying as hell as I have to recalibrate the shifter everytime.

Oh, and I also always have to unplug and connect my T500RS after I start the PC otherwise it won't be recognized.

Any idea?

Change your device boot order in UEFI/BIOS. Press DEL/F9 just right after starting your PC (or other key that's highlighted to enter setup). Make sure USB isn't on the first place. 

[JZStudios 631]

dynt said:

Some good info here lads, its a bit depressing that there seems to be a general consensus that good kit equals slower is this the same story for all those iracing types.
I have a decent selection of sequential shifters which i have picked up second hand including a dsd, a Heusinkveld Sim Shifter, a couple of frex shifters one i bought as a bag of bits and rebuilt with twin motorbike valve springs inner and outer which definitely feels like the real deal.
For me most of the enjoyment is trying to get close to the real life feeling and am just persevering trying to build up pace while not trying to deviate from realism to much.

I figure those cost too much, when I could just put $1200 into, I don't know, an actual transmission for my car or something. I mean, sim racings cool and all, but I'm not buying into iRacings dumb subscription model, and I'm not paying $30,000 for essentially a toy. I'd rather buy a car or retirement or something.
On the other hand, if you already have all those, why are you looking at another one? :confused:
I've never used the El Cheapo Logitech shifter, but I can't imagine it actually gets you going anywhere any faster. I also don't see why Dgeesy thinks the clubsport is so difficult to shift... it literally has the same force as my car, namely being I can shift quite easily with 1 or 2 fingers.... without strain. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Never found shifting particularly difficult. Unless maybe the throw is literally like, imperceptible... in which case, yeah I guess it's quicker... slightly.

Also, I've only seemed to find some super expensive SQ shifters randomly throughout my limited time. Doesn't seem like that many "Super simmers" are interested in H-patterns. Which seems weird, since I prefer them.

bogani said:

I started a thread in the tech section but as hardly noone reads there I'll just ask here.

I always have to unplug my Clubsport shifter to get the PC to boot. It won't start when the usb adapter is plugged in. I guess it tries to boot from the usb? It's annoying as hell as I have to recalibrate the shifter everytime.

Oh, and I also always have to unplug and connect my T500RS after I start the PC otherwise it won't be recognized.

Any idea?

I would say start your BIOS and check the boot device priority. I accidentally dun goofed messin about in mine and ended up trying to boot from the Game of Thrones DVD in my drive. (Terrible show by the way.) Otherwise check your USB drivers through the device manager to make sure they're working properly.

[dynt 0]

 just thinking about this some elements of good kit have got to help, A good brake pedal in my own experiences is way in front of standard pedals as muscle memory in braking is a major element as is for myself left foot braking which with out tension in the pedal is very hard to apply properly.
A good handbrake also has got to be a plus as there is a lot of finesse in competitive driving techniques above a simple switch on and off.
Shifters seem to be just about the fastest switch but for me personally i just cant find the gate on the cheap shiffters in h pattern mode but i suppose practice would cure that, however a good sequential shifter cant be slower in my opinion shouldn't be slower. 
So basically then its about the wheel which seems makes no difference upgrading as high rotation angles and more realistic ffb slow you up.
The only other thing i was wondering about is VR  would this be a help or hindrance in setting faster times ?

[TonyRickard 17]

dynt said:

The only other thing i was wondering about is VR  would this be a help or hindrance in setting faster times ?

FWIW I get exactly the same stage times using VR as with monitors. VR is just much nicer!

[JZStudios 631]

dynt said:

 just thinking about this some elements of good kit have got to help, A good brake pedal in my own experiences is way in front of standard pedals as muscle memory in braking is a major element as is for myself left foot braking which with out tension in the pedal is very hard to apply properly.
A good handbrake also has got to be a plus as there is a lot of finesse in competitive driving techniques above a simple switch on and off.
Shifters seem to be just about the fastest switch but for me personally i just cant find the gate on the cheap shiffters in h pattern mode but i suppose practice would cure that, however a good sequential shifter cant be slower in my opinion shouldn't be slower. 
So basically then its about the wheel which seems makes no difference upgrading as high rotation angles and more realistic ffb slow you up.
The only other thing i was wondering about is VR  would this be a help or hindrance in setting faster times ?

Decent pedals surely won't make you any slower, but again I'm still not going to pay the $700 for a Wilwood set, as nice as they are. Although, thinking about it, I do have a family friend that runs a buggy shop, maybe he has some cheaper hydraulic pedal sets I could convert...
Handbrakes are fun, but realistically not used all that often. I think SlapTrain actually has a decent idea with his modded HB, except maybe you could rig up a potentiometer to it... that's how the Fanatec shifter works, except it's purely spring tension, not hydraulic. Still bet I could gut it and set it up on one though... I think really if you want fancy super expensive sim racing equipment, you'd actually be better off making your own, and just buy a DSD button controller. Then you could rig up your own pedals, shifter, and handbrake, and save on manufacturing costs. Might not look very pretty though.
Actually looking at it, it really seems like the least overpriced products DSD sells are the controllers and button boxes. $600 for a handbrake? $900 for essentially a slightly fancier Wilwood branded Fanatec set? It really seems like that's more for the bragging rights of I spent more money than you. Oh, and I'm a fat guy.
https://youtu.be/B5m26mwzt64

[SkiddyMcCrash 311]

JZStudios said:

https://youtu.be/B5m26mwzt64

If I had that much money to spend on a rig I'd do what @Rallycameraman did and buy the real thing.

[dgeesi0 305]

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

[TonyRickard 17]

dgeesi0 said:

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

If you look at sim racing/rallying as a poor man's alternative to real world racing/rallying then I guess so. However, for many I think it is a different form of entertainment where you can come home from work, have tea and then have instant access to a Welsh Forest and a choice of rally cars in as nice a rig as you can afford or justify for the purpose of entertainment. Real world events don't work like that and require a different mindset for committing to it, be it time, garage space or simply inclination.

I would guess a lot of people with the disposable income for expensive sim racing gear have family and business commitments that would make sim racing a more likely option to find time for. The convenience of sim racing is a major difference IMHO.

[Snaky115 18]

The levels of what people can justify for their entertainment vary and a debate about this can last forever, as all debates about personal preferences.

1200 quid, however, is a lot, even for something like this. I would've expected like 1/3 of this price and that would be borderline fine even.

[JZStudios 631]

Snaky115 said:

The levels of what people can justify for their entertainment vary and a debate about this can last forever, as all debates about personal preferences.

1200 quid, however, is a lot, even for something like this. I would've expected like 1/3 of this price and that would be borderline fine even.

Agreed. For $300 it wouldn't be too bad. $400 I think is pushing it. I mean, I have a friend with a $5000 guitar and a $3000 camera, with a $2000 lens. Expensive hobby, but at least we can try to sell music and photos.

TonyRickard said:

dgeesi0 said:

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

If you look at sim racing/rallying as a poor man's alternative to real world racing/rallying then I guess so. However, for many I think it is a different form of entertainment where you can come home from work, have tea and then have instant access to a Welsh Forest and a choice of rally cars in as nice a rig as you can afford or justify for the purpose of entertainment. Real world events don't work like that and require a different mindset for committing to it, be it time, garage space or simply inclination.

I would guess a lot of people with the disposable income for expensive sim racing gear have family and business commitments that would make sim racing a more likely option to find time for. The convenience of sim racing is a major difference IMHO.

I hate to be cynical, but I kind of doubt that fat guy actually has a wife and kids, or that super nice of a house. Unless he's really making bank, I feel like all his money is in his setup.

[dgeesi0 305]

whos fat guy ? :D.                                                                                  

[JZStudios 631]

dgeesi0 said:

whos fat guy ? :D.                                                                                  

Did you watch the video? Fat guy.

[TonyRickard 17]

JZStudios said:

TonyRickard said:

dgeesi0 said:

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

If you look at sim racing/rallying as a poor man's alternative to real world racing/rallying then I guess so. However, for many I think it is a different form of entertainment where you can come home from work, have tea and then have instant access to a Welsh Forest and a choice of rally cars in as nice a rig as you can afford or justify for the purpose of entertainment. Real world events don't work like that and require a different mindset for committing to it, be it time, garage space or simply inclination.

I would guess a lot of people with the disposable income for expensive sim racing gear have family and business commitments that would make sim racing a more likely option to find time for. The convenience of sim racing is a major difference IMHO.

I hate to be cynical, but I kind of doubt that fat guy actually has a wife and kids, or that super nice of a house. Unless he's really making bank, I feel like all his money is in his setup.

I wasn't referring to the video but if you check his vids he has already done the spending a few grand on buying a car and tuning it for events stuff. I do think sim racing is a valid enough hobby of its own accord and not just a poor man's substitute.

[JZStudios 631]

TonyRickard said:

JZStudios said:

TonyRickard said:

dgeesi0 said:

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

If you look at sim racing/rallying as a poor man's alternative to real world racing/rallying then I guess so. However, for many I think it is a different form of entertainment where you can come home from work, have tea and then have instant access to a Welsh Forest and a choice of rally cars in as nice a rig as you can afford or justify for the purpose of entertainment. Real world events don't work like that and require a different mindset for committing to it, be it time, garage space or simply inclination.

I would guess a lot of people with the disposable income for expensive sim racing gear have family and business commitments that would make sim racing a more likely option to find time for. The convenience of sim racing is a major difference IMHO.

I hate to be cynical, but I kind of doubt that fat guy actually has a wife and kids, or that super nice of a house. Unless he's really making bank, I feel like all his money is in his setup.

I wasn't referring to the video but if you check his vids he has already done the spending a few grand on buying a car and tuning it for events stuff. I do think sim racing is a valid enough hobby of its own accord and not just a poor man's substitute.

May be true. I find it hard to justify spending thousands of dollars on a hobby when the selection of things you can do with it are so limited. And usually outdated. Flight sims are advancing at a way faster pace, and I'd assume they have less people playing them.

[dgeesi0 305]

as snaky put earlier we could debate what is worth it or not forever.

[JZStudios 631]

dgeesi0 said:

as snaky put earlier we could debate what is worth it or not forever.

And seeing as we have nothing else to discuss, why not?

[TonyRickard 17]

JZStudios said:

TonyRickard said:

I wasn't referring to the video but if you check his vids he has already done the spending a few grand on buying a car and tuning it for events stuff. I do think sim racing is a valid enough hobby of its own accord and not just a poor man's substitute.

May be true. I find it hard to justify spending thousands of dollars on a hobby when the selection of things you can do with it are so limited. And usually outdated. Flight sims are advancing at a way faster pace, and I'd assume they have less people playing them.

I think it is just nice to have options. You can be a "hardcore" sim racer without spending a fortune, which is a good thing. If you like the nice stuff which makes you feel good then great the vendors are out there, a few years ago there wasn't much in the way of suppliers. Cars would be pretty boring if we just treated them as means of getting from A to B and you can drive around quickly without spending tens or hundreds of thousands but those nice, expensive cars are well, nice if you can afford them but most of us don't feel deprived if we can't.

[dynt 0]

dgeesi0 said:

yes if you going to spend thousands id be buying a subaru , evo, escort mk2 for real rallying.

mates actually doing just that with a mk2 escort.its took him 2 years to do upto yet but it will be worth it :)

I dont  think you have been involved with the true costs of rallying, my first car back in 1980 was a Sunbean Ti, cost me 3500 pounds, add to that a van, spares for the car, trailer,mechanics for the day if you cant find folks to do it for free, entries for events, fuel, tyres at 200 pounds a pop, plus a bucket load of other consumables you cant even compare the costs, I ran Manfred Stohl, Rossenberger, Stig Blomquist, to name just a few when i had a preparation company, Rossenberger just to RENT a Gr N Evo 5 on a WRC event was paying 50,000 pounds all in, back in the late 90s.
Spending a couple of grand which can go a long long way on a rig  is not even the cost of the expenses for a 1 day National rally forgetting the costs of the hardware.
This lot not including pc and monitors, cost me around 1600, i made my own hand brake cost 180, and welded up my own rig, bought the ecci 7000 used, the shifter used, a set of modified g27 pedals with hydraulic conversion.Some bass shakes and simvibe.

Its not the real thing much its still a huge buzz and it has the added bonus of not making you feel suicidal when you crash the car and get the huge repair bills.

[dgeesi0 305]

scales and spectrum. im not talking about rallying in wrc.you can do grass rallying local events for next to nothing on private land.there are aerodrome set ups . similar to what rally cameraman was doing which arent dear.fun days out.

also some of the set ups im on about run into tens of thousands.not a couple of grand.keep in perspective.one i tested was about 3-4 grand recently.

so if i did the cheaper end of the scale as what i put above i could get a cheap end scooby, older evo or mk2 escort and have fun for the sameish price of a decent high end wheel set up.

nice to here you did proper rallying. B)