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Take the god damn AI out of RaceNet Challenges!!!


Tony031R
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Of course you're not going to do that, but regardless... take the god damn AI out of the Challenges!

Can anyone explain / sketch / refer me to the actual point of having 12 cars on track RACING in a leaderboard-based, fast-lap game mode? Furthermore, can anyone explain the point in making the AI slow-moving walls that lap 10 sec. off the Gold pace, brake 50 meters earlier in every corner, brake-check you in flat-out corners, accelerate slower, go three wide on a narrow-as-**** track, hit the inside barriers and get thrown into anything and anyone trying to pass on the outside on Street tracks or clip each other and collect you in the process? Because the sole purpose of it, as I see it, is to slow you down dramatically for the first 10 corners or inflict damage you have to carry through the rest of the race.

And it's not just that. Even in the Time Attack mode, the AI is ridiculosly slow. Take this week's Touring Cat. C challenge as an example. I had to constantly sacrifice the first lap and STOP (actually stop moving) for about 10-15 sec. on track in order to give myself some space for two clean laps. Otherwise you just have to deal with insanely slow traffic that's inevitably going to ruin each and every of your three laps.

Is there at least some logic in dialing the difficulty level down so much, other than to make any just-bought-the-game-yesterday fella feel fast even though he's ranking 2000+ every week or cater for the GRID 2 first-lap nutters who don't feel at home if they don't complete the Trading Paint achievement race after race?

I don't want to sound like a pretentious prick and believe me, I'm enjoying the game A LOT but this is beyond frustrating, it takes the fun out of an otherwise perfectly decent game mode and it just scrambles with the leaderboards putting the accent on luck and evasive manouvers skill rather than pure speed and technique.

Either keep the damn AI in Career Mode, where it belongs OR increase the difficulty in order to make it pose an actual challenge, rather than act like a massive pain in the *** that lasts half a lap.
 
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I think there is just something a miss with AI, I thought that codemasters got rid of rubberbanding, but I feel this is rubbish, when you're in a single player race, race 2 in touring cars for example and you have to start last. after a laps (depending on difficulty), you manage to get past all the AI drivers, and you leave the Raven West team in the dust, and make yourself a nice big lead, then suddenly, as if out of no-where, Nathan is catching up to you, but you've been doing the fastest laps, but he can't quite catch up enough to overtake you.

Now the issue of online time trials where AI is added, it seems half the AI cars are just driving leisurely around the track, while the other half are actually trying to get good lap times, but now, if you're driving behind an AI car trying to get good laps in, and you get close enough, it suddenly slows down to a halt, but it won't get out of the racing line, so you inevitably plough straight into the back of the AI car.

Now there is the problem with AI cars in general. Sure, you see (in real life), especially in the early stages of the race, cars riding 2 abreast, both drivers give each other room on the race track, yes they touch and scrape, but you cannot do this against AI, they will cut you off, you take the inside line in the apex, they will shove you off the track, you get a penalty for crossing the line, you try going around the outside, they shove you onto the gravel.

I find the AI is just too annoying and frustrating, I don't even see rammers driving this aggressively, and yet we get punished when the AI shoves us around when we're "trying" to get past cleanly. It's now come to a stage that I'll ram the AI drivers out the way before they can ram me.

During online challenges, It is almost impossible to get platinum because the AI is either cock blocking you, or shoving you into oblivion. The AI seems to be on easy, because they don't drive very fast, and you can get past them all easily within one lap if you're lucky enough to get around them, so my suggestion, they should be faster on track to avoid the annoyances of them being in your way, and if you are running abreast with an AI driver, to let them let you drive next to you, yes, if you shove them, then they can shove you, but it's annoying they the AI is instigating the shoving most of the time.

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I completely agree Tony. Last weeks Street challenge with the Hot Hatches was ridiculous! I finally got my Golf to level 50, added the engine upgrade and all the tuning stuff, but alas, I still had to get through the first few corners of AI drivers that think we're all in bumpercars. Maaaayyybe if it was the Touring discipline, I could understand, but Street? Suffice to say that I spent hours trying to find a good line through the AI on the first lap and just gave up because I just couldn't make up the lost time on the 2 other laps. 

All that to say: if the competition is time based in a RaceNet Challenge, make it a Time Attack not a Race.
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Waa Waa Waa ai is in my way . Work out how to get around them. I'm 2seconds off pace for platinum with just a few tries. Sometimes you have to work 4 things. Would u rather no AI and the base times dropped 5 secs or have AI and keep things they way they are? either way you would have to work for it they're not just going to give you a platinum everytime.
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Work out how to get around them. I'm 2 seconds off pace for platinum with just a few tries.
You completely misunderstood my point. I did work out how to get around them and I'm usually 1-2 sec. off the Platinum pace in Endurance, Open Wheel and Tuner (when it applies) and I get Platinum rather easily in Touring or Street. So what's your case or mine have to do with the fact that the AI is not well optimized in terms of difficulty?

The thing is (and here's where you missed my point): I don't care about the crappy medals. I care about an enjoyable racing experience.

How is working your way through slow-as-**** traffic that's gonna block, brake-check and ram you senseless for 1/2 a lap out of 3 racing at all, really?

The current state of the AI in RaceNet is the real-world equivalent of being the only LMP1 car, starting last in a sprint race with a full field of overly-aggressive GTs in front. That's not racing, that's a sure-shot full blown carnage waiting to happen.

If people want the AI to stay, then sure, I'm not in a position to contest that, but you have to at least accept the fact that the difficulty NEEDS to be increased so that they won't act as mobile chicanes.
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Waa Waa Waa ai is in my way . Work out how to get around them. I'm 2seconds off pace for platinum with just a few tries. Sometimes you have to work 4 things. Would u rather no AI and the base times dropped 5 secs or have AI and keep things they way they are? either way you would have to work for it they're not just going to give you a platinum everytime.
Wat has this to do with 'work for things'? In my case... I get Platinum in the 1st run most of the times. But that's not my goal, it is being in the Top 1%. Not to brag, just cause it's a challenge for me. Problem here... if you have to fight to get past the AI in Time Trial, you lose at least half a second. That means, you can forget that time for sure.
Just to make it clear, getting a nearly perfect lap to compete with the top times, you have to work damn hard. Some may get that after 6 Laps, and so do I with very few challenges. But most of the times you get better from lap to lap and it takes 5-10 tries.
The thing is now, that these perfect laps, in 90% of all cases, are only done, when I stop in the beginning, let the AI get away for 20 seconds and start in the 2nd lap, so I have a clear track.

An AI, that it a rolling chicane in a corner, that you simply cannot pass without losing much time, isn't what I consider 'working hard'. In real racing that is called impeding and is usually penalized. Remember, we're talking about time trial, basically qualifying, not racing.

If we had the possibility to increase the AIs strength, they would be faster and we (the faster ones) wouldn't run into them after 5 corners.
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Awong124 said:
In my opinion, the point isn't that the AI is there, but that it's inconsistent. Having inconsistent conditions for leaderboard challenges doesn't make sense.
Exactly this

Being able to slip stream the AI cars shouldn't be allowed, especially in time attack. Personally I'd do away with them altogether
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Photonik said:
Waa Waa Waa ai is in my way . Work out how to get around them. I'm 2seconds off pace for platinum with just a few tries. Sometimes you have to work 4 things. Would u rather no AI and the base times dropped 5 secs or have AI and keep things they way they are? either way you would have to work for it they're not just going to give you a platinum everytime.
Wat has this to do with 'work for things'? In my case... I get Platinum in the 1st run most of the times. But that's not my goal, it is being in the Top 1%. Not to brag, just cause it's a challenge for me. Problem here... if you have to fight to get past the AI in Time Trial, you lose at least half a second. That means, you can forget that time for sure.
Just to make it clear, getting a nearly perfect lap to compete with the top times, you have to work damn hard. Some may get that after 6 Laps, and so do I with very few challenges. But most of the times you get better from lap to lap and it takes 5-10 tries.
The thing is now, that these perfect laps, in 90% of all cases, are only done, when I stop in the beginning, let the AI get away for 20 seconds and start in the 2nd lap, so I have a clear track.

An AI, that it a rolling chicane in a corner, that you simply cannot pass without losing much time, isn't what I consider 'working hard'. In real racing that is called impeding and is usually penalized. Remember, we're talking about time trial, basically qualifying, not racing.

If we had the possibility to increase the AIs strength, they would be faster and we (the faster ones) wouldn't run into them after 5 corners.
BTW it is to brag if that's your goal is top 1%. I mean it can obviously be done with AI there . Practice practice practice.
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Why is it automatically bragging, if I want to beat the best times on the board and not just some random goal to get a medal?
I have one of the fastest players in grid on the team, so I constantly try to beat him, without success, unfortunately. :D
And again, practise doesn't help. If I am half a second off anothers time and I loose exactly that half second, because an AI driver blocks a corner, I can practise as much as I want, that won't help. Sure, on some tracks you can have luck and pass the AI where it doesn't impede you, or use it in a corner to your advantage, but that is luck and not skill. Most times it is just waiting in the first lap and attack in 2nd and 3rd. That works, but costs time, where I simply do nothing. If i want to do nothing, I play 'sleep' or 'watch a movie'.
Time Trial is about setting the fastest lap of all on a clear track. Otherwise that is called a race.
Imagine you'd be running a timed Marathon and you'd have to wait on street lights to turn green. Would practise help there? No. It's luck, nothing more.

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Just a heads up, but we are making a change where we'll give priority to Time Attack modes in the RaceNet Challenge. This should ensure that your run ins with the AI are kept to an absolute minimum.

There'll still be the odd Race for those that like that sort of thing but overall you should be seeing more Time Attack.
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Photonik said:
Waa Waa Waa ai is in my way . Work out how to get around them. I'm 2seconds off pace for platinum with just a few tries. Sometimes you have to work 4 things. Would u rather no AI and the base times dropped 5 secs or have AI and keep things they way they are? either way you would have to work for it they're not just going to give you a platinum everytime.
Wat has this to do with 'work for things'? In my case... I get Platinum in the 1st run most of the times. But that's not my goal, it is being in the Top 1%. Not to brag, just cause it's a challenge for me. Problem here... if you have to fight to get past the AI in Time Trial, you lose at least half a second. That means, you can forget that time for sure.
Just to make it clear, getting a nearly perfect lap to compete with the top times, you have to work damn hard. Some may get that after 6 Laps, and so do I with very few challenges. But most of the times you get better from lap to lap and it takes 5-10 tries.
The thing is now, that these perfect laps, in 90% of all cases, are only done, when I stop in the beginning, let the AI get away for 20 seconds and start in the 2nd lap, so I have a clear track.

An AI, that it a rolling chicane in a corner, that you simply cannot pass without losing much time, isn't what I consider 'working hard'. In real racing that is called impeding and is usually penalized. Remember, we're talking about time trial, basically qualifying, not racing.

If we had the possibility to increase the AIs strength, they would be faster and we (the faster ones) wouldn't run into them after 5 corners.
BTW it is to brag if that's your goal is top 1%. I mean it can obviously be done with AI there . Practice practice practice.
Why do you want the AI to stay as it is? If you can give a good argument for that maybe people will agree. Telling people to drive better isnt and reason. Racenet challenges isnt (at least for me)just about getting a medal but also having your time compared to other drivers. For me the AI is just an element that puts luck into something that should be pure skill based.
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For races, as opposed to Time Attack, it might be sensible to have qualifying turned on to allow those able to get a head start. If it could then save this qualifying for future runs at the same challenge it would make it less of an imposition.

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Yayy 2seconds of pace an bringing attitude hahaha.    @V8R3L3NTL3SS1‌    I was less then 2 hundreths of 1st ;)   the ai cant even drive the cars or tracks 6 or 7 times they spun out infront ov me throwing away my sick laps!!!!!!!      Isnt the idea behind an online leaderboard to c whos the fastest!!!!!!!!!!    NOT WHOS LUCKIEST WITH BAD AI!!!!!!!!     what does the I stand for again????????   insaneiyerr hahahaha

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> people complaining about AI behavior in both Time Attack and Race RaceNet challenges
> developer decides to bias non-party-fun challenges towards Time Attack

such logic, wow

It gives you what you want no? It lessens the effects of AI in the challenge but still keeps the 'fastest lap' style mechanic?

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I'm not sure you quite understand the Problem Loore. The Challenges that are put forward on Racenet 99% of the time are based on getting across the finish line in the fastest possible time.

It doesn't matter if it's a distance thing, or a timed lap. You have to be the quickest, at the moment the A.I are in the way CONSTANTLY. Each time you start the challenge a fresh, the A.I are spaced out differently on track. We don't have an equal playing field here, the guys who manage to get a clear lap on the challenges are the winners. It's very frustrating when you think you're about to nail the fastest lap in the Cat C touring cars around Brands Hatch, when suddenly the awful A.I decide to block your line and ruin your time.

They either need removing, or placing on a skill level where they can keep up with the players skill level.

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@loore - what the guy above said. 


The AI need to either be removed from the time attack events or their skill/difficulty level upped so that they are more consistent.  Currently they always block and you always find them in the crappest of places, on the racing line.

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It's not a true "time attack" when the player is attacked & blocked by AI drivers at any point during the session. It doesn't matter how far apart they might be spaced or what difficulty the AI are set at when the player is very likely to have at least one encounter with an AI driver during the session. Setting the "fastest lap" takes a back seat to dodging AI, which might make sense in a race, but not in a Time Attack.


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The condition needs scrapping aswell sick ov it costing all my credits for 6 laps :'(   no leaderboards still soon they say where im from in this world soon means at sometime today not in 10 weeks!!!!!!!!    GRID AUTOSPORT:  ONLINE CAPABILITIES:  LEADERBOARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      An not being able to run a lobby alone while you wait for people to join is killing it for me!!!!!

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Not a bad suggestion Awong124, it gets tiresome going through 2 mins of menu's for a 30s run.

The AI is a bad factor though as the luck of the draw dictates how successful your times will be. Took me about 40 tries to get top 3% last week with the Golf R in the Street category due to the stupid AI messing up at the start. This week's Endurance run on Algarve is even worse with the damn 787B's unable to get through the first corner without a massive pileup and the Ravenwest driver zipping off into the distance. For Racenet leaderboard style races they should ALL be from a controlled situation such as a clean track Time Attack. It's not about racing AI set to medium with less ability to race than a pair of rocks.
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Loore said:
> people complaining about AI behavior in both Time Attack and Race RaceNet challenges
> developer decides to bias non-party-fun challenges towards Time Attack

such logic, wow

It gives you what you want no? It lessens the effects of AI in the challenge but still keeps the 'fastest lap' style mechanic?

We're not racing the AI but the leader boards. The AI is in the way regardless of game mode. Even in time attack it takes less than 1 lap until you have traffic in front of you.

So what we want is the opportunity to drive as fast as we can without mobile obstacles to compete with everyone on the challenge leader boards. This can be done by either increasing AI level, let human player start in pos 1(this would solve it in all game modes and still keep fastest lap mechanic) or ghost the AI. Making most challenges time attack does not solve the problem unless something is done also to the ai

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Loore said:
> people complaining about AI behavior in both Time Attack and Race RaceNet challenges
> developer decides to bias non-party-fun challenges towards Time Attack

such logic, wow

It gives you what you want no? It lessens the effects of AI in the challenge but still keeps the 'fastest lap' style mechanic?

No, it absolutely does not. It is not races with AI, that's the problem, it is the AI in Time Attack. They are too weak. You run into them after half a lap and your laptime is ruined, as you cannot pass them properly. (not 'cause we all suck, but because they go feeled 1st gear in every corner)

Options to solve that problem (more time attack is not a solution to problems IN time attack):

  1. Only ghost AI
  2. much stronger AI (let us increase the difficulty of AI, if wanted)

Either one of these two things will solve the problem and I think nothing else will do. At least I don't have any idea what should.

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Photonik said:
Loore said:
> people complaining about AI behavior in both Time Attack and Race RaceNet challenges
> developer decides to bias non-party-fun challenges towards Time Attack

such logic, wow

It gives you what you want no? It lessens the effects of AI in the challenge but still keeps the 'fastest lap' style mechanic?

No, it absolutely does not. It is not races with AI, that's the problem, it is the AI in Time Attack. They are too weak. You run into them after half a lap and your laptime is ruined, as you cannot pass them properly. (not 'cause we all suck, but because they go feeled 1st gear in every corner)

Options to solve that problem (more time attack is not a solution to problems IN time attack):

  1. Only ghost AI
  2. much stronger AI (let us increase the difficulty of AI, if wanted)

Either one of these two things will solve the problem and I think nothing else will do. At least I don't have any idea what should.

I proposed that in another thread as well, ghosting the AI in time attack would be perfect as it is after all only about time, not some odd type of race. Personally I'd like to have ghosted cars in playlist time attack as well, people differ so much in skill, so some of the better can lose out just because they get more traffic from slower players. It's after all the time that matters in that event. 

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The AI in Time Attack are very poor (set to medium) and they just get in the way all the time. Usually meaning that you won't get a clean lap unless you stop stock still at the start and wait for the gap to increase enough to get two clean laps in after the first gets wasted.

That's not something that should be setup for Racenet Playlists. Leave the Ghost cars in, and remove the AI or make them ghost too. It's pointless otherwise as the main competition is the other players on Racenet, NOT the AI.

With the Race scenarios it's also pointless as the Racenet positions are based off total time. Why? It's a race if you win you win, problem is the AI is so easy to beat that the winning part is removed. Racenet being Time Attack only would make far more sense. However there are two exceptions. Party mode should stay as is, with weird and random combinations, as well as Endurance having proper Endurance Solo racing.

As mentioned before if races are to be kept in, allow the player to start from Pole instead of last. Otherwise it taints the results.

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Loore said:
Just a heads up, but we are making a change where we'll give priority to Time Attack modes in the RaceNet Challenge. This should ensure that your run ins with the AI are kept to an absolute minimum.

There'll still be the odd Race for those that like that sort of thing but overall you should be seeing more Time Attack.
Week 5: Touring - Race / Endurance - Race / Open Wheel - Race / Tuner - Race / Street - Time Attack / Party Mode - Checkpoint. So, yeah, that's happening. The odd four races out of six events.
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Time attack should be on an empty track. Otherwise it's qualifying.  @Loore‌ READ WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING.  Don't want more time attack.  Just get rid of the AI. 

No wonder you guys can't make a game,   

No AI please.   Ok well have some destructo derby.   That's your thought process right?
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Just attempted this weeks open wheel challenge at Spa. To put in numbers:

4/10 times AI cars up ahead wreck each other through Eau Rouge blocking the road,
3/10 times I get side swiped by the car starting next to me in 11th,
2/10 times the AI make it through fast somehow so I couldn't overtake enough,
1/10 times I can get past quickly enough without damaged steering to go for top 1%.

This is more like playing dodgeball and one that is based more on luck than skill. Worst is that 9/10 times I have no fun at all which ruins the whole idea of playing a game.

So yes it's frustrating the way it is now. The only place where I see AI fit is the Party Mode, let us laugh at them how dumb they are like they totaled each other in the first turn in San Francisco in a previous challenge.

Apart from that I'm quickly losing interest in Racenet challenges. I do it just for the money awarded which feels rather like work. Codemasters ruined a feature with one simple change from Grid 2.
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Loore said:
> people complaining about AI behavior in both Time Attack and Race RaceNet challenges
> developer decides to bias non-party-fun challenges towards Time Attack

such logic, wow

It gives you what you want no? It lessens the effects of AI in the challenge but still keeps the 'fastest lap' style mechanic?

Are you for real?   We are on planet Earth, in the Milky way............................where are you, and the CN team?

_________________________________________________________________________________

Thats the problem. 

Time attack - AI on the track - YES


_____________________________________________________________________________________

Here is the solution 

Time attack   -  AI on track???    [NO]

_________________________________________________________________________________


Can you spot the difference?????????????????????????????  


Time attack is a race against the clock.   That means no one on that track other than my own car.  No other cars, AI's or anyone other than me and a ghost I selected. 


Qualifying is done with other cars on the track.   But we are NOT qualifying,  we are TIME ATTACKING,  and we know this because it says so on the screen. 

 

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So imagine, it's about 3am, I'm Time Attacking and out of the blue... will you see it coming?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VlY76adiCc


And a copy/paste from steam forums, because I can whine about racenet bots all day long...


Here's my typical Time Attack: 

1) every first lap is wasted, because we have a rolling start at a speed which is quite slower than possible;

2) if we don't sit at least 20-30 seconds before the last turn of the first already_wasted lap, there's a high chance we'll get bots in the way;

3) bot placement is random for each full restart.

TL DR: first lap + 30 seconds of each attempt is wasted.

I really miss Grid 2 Power Laps, where you have a standing start + only 1 lap and nobody that gets in the way. Checkpoints had no AI as well.

>end of copy/paste


I think the best/easiest solution is to ghost bots in Every. Single. Challenge. Because a challenge should not be luck based!

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Zodh said:

1) every first lap is wasted, because we have a rolling start at a speed which is quite slower than possible;

You should always run a quicker outlap than a rolling start -- get used to it.

2) if we don't sit at least 20-30 seconds before the last turn of the first already_wasted lap, there's a high chance we'll get bots in the way;

You've answered your own arguement -- drop back and hit that stella lap.

3) bot placement is random for each full restart.

It's not random -- the animation sequence of the AI can be very predictable -- it depends how much time you invest in understanding how you start and how that correlates to the AI.

I don't have the answers but mere suggestions.

Good luck in racing.




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Another week where the racenet challenges are ruined by the scripted cars(i refuse to call it AI since there is no intelligence involved).

Why not just let human players start in pos 1 as a quick fix. If you do that the scripted cars wont be a problem in any race event at all.

As said many times before: We are not racing the AI, we are racing the leader boards!

If we want to race the scripted cars we got a whole part of the game called single player to do that.

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DLT222 - That reasoning is absolute bullshit. The whole point of a Time Attack is to go for fastest lap. This results in no time attack but something closer to a Qualifying session for a race. In Time Attack there are no other cars on the track and if there are they are spaced out like Rally with enough gap so participants don't impede another driver. Currently this is not the case and on a lot of laps you catch the AI (because they are so damn slow) on the first lap. Then you'll continue to hit AI each subsequent lap too.

Having to wait (literally stopped) near the end of the first lap for enough of a gap to open to get a run is just wasting player time for no valid reason. The other issue is the AI don't even run the Platinum level times, they run about 10s slower so they will ALWAYS get in the way and be useless if they impede you lap. Changing it from current type of Time Attack to a more appropriate type (IE no AI or AI running Platinum Times) would help solve the issues face, unlike your mostly unhelpful and self-aggrandising comments.

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