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2016 NICOHITSLEWISLOL Belgium Grand Prix

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I don't have a problem with Max's turn 1 move. That's racing. Was it a silly move? Maybe but that's based on hindsight, if everything had gone well we'd all be saying it was the move of the race. He went for a hole and it didn't work. 

But the stuff down the straight and forcing drivers off was just foolish. Blocking Kimi like that was just too dangerous to ignore. It's one thing to be bold and defensive, but it's another thing to be unpredictable in a way that's dangerous. I like Max and hope it's just the pressure of Red Bull and being so young, hopefully he'll grow out of it all. 

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http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/verstappen-vettel-and-raikkonen-should-be-ashamed-of-themselves-811205/

This has now turned fairly spicy. Cuttin' killer promos now bois

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I don't agree that his move at Turn 1 was good. There wasn't a gap there, hence he had to drive on the kerb to try and make room, there's little chance he would have been able to make the turn without hitting in Kimi (unless Kimi gave him space). It was forceful and stupid, not as stupid as his blocking and driving Kimi and Perez off the track at T4. Not his first time either, he's done similar things in the past few races and gotten away with no warning or penalties. His style is falling more into GP2 than F1 at the moment, needs to take on board what people are saying and show he is able to make changes and progress.

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Just caught up with the race:

- Hamilton chose the best possible race to start from the back. Going from 21st to 3rd with only 4 recorded overtakes is legitimately impressive. 

- First corner collision was Vettel's fault, although it's difficult to say whether Verstappen and Raikkonen would've touched anyway with the paths they were on. 

- Don't really understand why Verstappen hasn't been given at least a reprimand. The two instances when he pushed Raikkonen and Perez off at Les Combes he wasn't driving for the racing line any more and he didn't even make the corner himself - so I can't really work out why there's any difference to what Rosberg has done in Austria and Germany. 

- Will Hulkenberg ever get a podium in F1? :(  

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Mexicola said:
Hughesy said:
Max isn't doing anything different to what Michael Schumacher did though, I'm not saying it's right but he always got away with it. 
Michael's done a fair few naughty things but not nearly as regularly Max is doing. Verstappen has a lot to learn.
Think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think it's basically the first time Verstappen had the erratic race people been predicting he would have since his debut because he's a teenager. Spa was his worst race to date, but in general I don't think Max' driving style warrants a talking-to. Knowing him and his dad, there's zero chance he's going to change it up anyway and unless the race in Spa will become the norm, I don't see why he should tbh.

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Jiggy said:
Mexicola said:
Hughesy said:
Max isn't doing anything different to what Michael Schumacher did though, I'm not saying it's right but he always got away with it. 
Michael's done a fair few naughty things but not nearly as regularly Max is doing. Verstappen has a lot to learn.
Think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think it's basically the first time Verstappen had the erratic race people been predicting he would have since his debut because he's a teenager. Spa was his worst race to date, but in general I don't think Max' driving style warrants a talking-to. Knowing him and his dad, there's zero chance he's going to change it up anyway and unless the race in Spa will become the norm, I don't see why he should tbh.
Verstappen's had a race like this coming to him a fair while. The first year and a half apart from Monaco 2015 has been fairly dangerous-accident-free but recently he's done some fairly retarded stuff. He's repeatedly moved in braking zones, blatantly pushed people off track and made excessively late moves and blocked drivers. I love some good dirty Villeneuve/Arnoux racing myself, but there has to become a point where you have to say "enough". Had that incident with Raikkonen gone wrong, both drivers could have been very seriously injured, and at that speed and at that part of the circuit, possibly even killed.

Not only this, but his attitude from the first lap incident all the way to the media pen was appalling. To completely disregard criticism from top, established drivers and members of the paddock is ignorant enough, but to confess to intentional malice with his moves is frankly disgusting.

I love Verstappen as much as the next guy but I sincerely hope this is a one off, many more weekends like this and we're going to lose a once in a life time talent.

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VetteIfan said:
Just caught up with the race:

- Hamilton chose the best possible race to start from the back. Going from 21st to 3rd with only 4 recorded overtakes is legitimately impressive. 

- First corner collision was Vettel's fault, although it's difficult to say whether Verstappen and Raikkonen would've touched anyway with the paths they were on. 

- Don't really understand why Verstappen hasn't been given at least a reprimand. The two instances when he pushed Raikkonen and Perez off at Les Combes he wasn't driving for the racing line any more and he didn't even make the corner himself - so I can't really work out why there's any difference to what Rosberg has done in Austria and Germany. 

- Will Hulkenberg ever get a podium in F1? :(  
I disagree with it being Vettel's fault - I don't think anyone was really fully to blame.

Max shouldn't have tried the move, as others have said, there was not really room for it hence going on the kerbs. And as for Vettel, he likely didn't realise Verstappen was down the inside of Kimi, which is understandable, because Max made a bit of a silly move. Which was why he was confused on the radio I assume. 

Max needs to calm down a bit at T1 and realise that the race is not won or lost at the first corner. I like him, but you expect these kinds of moves with young drivers. Hamilton was just the same when he was young, he calmed down a bit though, hopefully Max will do the same. 

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I'm with AMS on this one, I don't see T1 really as his fault. If Max hadn't dived up Kimi's inside the line Vettel took wouldn't have been a problem, so in my view Max forced Kimi to take a wider line which Vettel couldn't see. And even if Vettel hadn't been there it's likely Max would have hit Kimi.

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VetteIfan said:
Just caught up with the race:

- Hamilton chose the best possible race to start from the back. Going from 21st to 3rd with only 4 recorded overtakes is legitimately impressive. 

One could say it was Seb Vettel Abu Dhabi 2012-style. Only difference was Lewis didn't drive into a DRS-sign to get the best strategy. ;)

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VetteIfan said:
Just caught up with the race:

- Hamilton chose the best possible race to start from the back. Going from 21st to 3rd with only 4 recorded overtakes is legitimately impressive. 

One could say it was Seb Vettel Abu Dhabi 2012-style. Only difference was Lewis didn't drive into a DRS-sign to get the best strategy. ;)
Why does it always have to be turned in to a reference on something in Vettel's past? Yes he hit a DRS board and he got fortunate with the way that race panned out, it's been well established by now :)

AMS97KRR said:
I disagree with it being Vettel's fault - I don't think anyone was really fully to blame.

Max shouldn't have tried the move, as others have said, there was not really room for it hence going on the kerbs. And as for Vettel, he likely didn't realise Verstappen was down the inside of Kimi, which is understandable, because Max made a bit of a silly move. Which was why he was confused on the radio I assume. 
I agree that Verstappen's move didn't help matters, but if you watch Kimi's onboard Vettel does cut across very sharply, that even with Verstappen not there they might've collided anyway. I think when Seb watches it back he'll know he should've left a bit more space, especially considering it was his teammate on the inside. 

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VetteIfan said:
VetteIfan said:
Just caught up with the race:

- Hamilton chose the best possible race to start from the back. Going from 21st to 3rd with only 4 recorded overtakes is legitimately impressive. 

One could say it was Seb Vettel Abu Dhabi 2012-style. Only difference was Lewis didn't drive into a DRS-sign to get the best strategy. ;)
Why does it always have to be turned in to a reference on something in Vettel's past? Yes he hit a DRS board and he got fortunate with the way that race panned out, it's been well established by now :)
Just a bit of fun, don't worry. ;)

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Think I upset @RaceForever with my comments on Verstappen. Gone through my entire profile and disagreed nearly every post I've made for it :D :D :D :D :D :D
Revenge disagreeing. Sounds similar to a certain drivers driving on Sunday ;)

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Mexicola said:
Jiggy said:
Mexicola said:
Hughesy said:
Max isn't doing anything different to what Michael Schumacher did though, I'm not saying it's right but he always got away with it. 
Michael's done a fair few naughty things but not nearly as regularly Max is doing. Verstappen has a lot to learn.
Think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think it's basically the first time Verstappen had the erratic race people been predicting he would have since his debut because he's a teenager. Spa was his worst race to date, but in general I don't think Max' driving style warrants a talking-to. Knowing him and his dad, there's zero chance he's going to change it up anyway and unless the race in Spa will become the norm, I don't see why he should tbh.
Verstappen's had a race like this coming to him a fair while. The first year and a half apart from Monaco 2015 has been fairly dangerous-accident-free but recently he's done some fairly retarded stuff. He's repeatedly moved in braking zones, blatantly pushed people off track and made excessively late moves and blocked drivers. I love some good dirty Villeneuve/Arnoux racing myself, but there has to become a point where you have to say "enough". Had that incident with Raikkonen gone wrong, both drivers could have been very seriously injured, and at that speed and at that part of the circuit, possibly even killed.

Not only this, but his attitude from the first lap incident all the way to the media pen was appalling. To completely disregard criticism from top, established drivers and members of the paddock is ignorant enough, but to confess to intentional malice with his moves is frankly disgusting.

I love Verstappen as much as the next guy but I sincerely hope this is a one off, many more weekends like this and we're going to lose a once in a life time talent.
The moving in breaking zones is something that I do recall. Most noticeably Rosberg in Hockenheim. I don't recall him pushing people off the track or blocking people, the late moves is basically his signature overtaking manouvre and he usually made it stick in a controlled manner. But I also haven't been paying the greatest attention to F1 races lately because boring, so yeah. Maybe I've missed something. Can't even properly remember the Raikkonen incident without looking back, so I'm going to have to get back to that later.

As for him disregarding criticism, I can get that when it's excessive. Like he's been great for over a year now, but this is a recent thing and they call him a potential killer. Experienced drivers also like to jump on rookies when they do something wrong. Massa did it after Monaco and Max told him to back off. Didn't hear Raikkonen say anything with the same amount of vigor about Bottas last season and Bottas knocked him several times out of a race. Vettel dislikes everything and everyone this season and some of that first lap is also on him, even though the primary blame goes to Max. Oh wait, now that I do remember, Max and Kimi have found eachother a couple of times now, have they? Maybe in Austria. I don't know, maybe bias meant it went over my head. Also, I'm a Schumacher-fan. Racing harder because someone screwed your race is not too far off something out of his playbook so that emotion is something I won't hold against Max, but he needs to go about it in a better way because Spa wasn't a good race for him.

Overall, I feel like maybe things need to be put into perspective. He's not going to kill himself of anyone else, he had a very bad race. He also had a lot of very good races. I don't think he's a danger to himself or others like a Maldonado or old-school Grosjean/Perez and calls for him to change his driving style would mostly neuter one of the few drivers who can make things exciting these days. Spa was out of the norm for him. He'll be fine.

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Hard to argue that either of these moves were legal. Verstappen done a similar thing to Perez later in the race, don't think he managed to stay on the track that time either which to me shows he was only interested in blocking the guy out. Making Raikkonen have to brake on the Kemmel Straight is downright wrong and it's ridiculous he didn't get called up for it. But as has been previously mentioned, don't want to ruin the young and exciting guy that's bringing in the Dutch money now do we?

https://youtu.be/D8lIUqI9H58


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Who said anything about money?

The first move was a wrong one. It's not a Rosberg-like move, but when you do a move like that and you end up going off the track yourself, it's a botched overtake. Same as with Perez. Bad overtake and a bad case of defending from Verstappen.

As with Kimi, you're allowed to move once on the straight to defend your line and Max moved once and it wasn't in the breaking zone. So you won't find a rule book that says what Max did was illegal. Matter fact, around lap 26/27, Vettel cut Max off in a breaking zone at the same corner. Why aren't we talking about that like Vettel is about to kill someone? Raikkonen had a similar bad overtake on Grosjean at Les Combes, hit his rear tyre. Yet they are the ones complaining. Perez forced Massa off at Les Combes. He kept his car on the track, but you are technically required to keep at least a car's distance between yours and the edge of the track when you're overtaking. Ricciardo made a Red Bull-career over his divebomb-tactics at times like in Hungary and everybody loved it. Alonso straight up hit Hulkenberg in the pitlane.

Drivers are taking risks and are pushing limits with offensive and defensive moves all the time and sometimes they cross it and get it wrong, like Max did at Spa. It can be acknowledged that he had a bad race, I've done so without hesitation. The reaction towards Max though is so excessive like he's an exception. He's not. He usually gets it right. And in terms of getting away with stuff, he's not an exception in that either. But now people are unnecessarily creating a thing out of it, so now if he does something at Italy, he'll get some kind of statement punishment, maybe even a suspension and that would be a shame.

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Jiggy said:
Who said anything about money?

The first move was a wrong one. It's not a Rosberg-like move, but when you do a move like that and you end up going off the track yourself, it's a botched overtake. Same as with Perez. Bad overtake and a bad case of defending from Verstappen.

As with Kimi, you're allowed to move once on the straight to defend your line and Max moved once and it wasn't in the breaking zone. So you won't find a rule book that says what Max did was illegal. Matter fact, around lap 26/27, Vettel cut Max off in a breaking zone at the same corner. Why aren't we talking about that like Vettel is about to kill someone? Raikkonen had a similar bad overtake on Grosjean at Les Combes, hit his rear tyre. Yet they are the ones complaining. Perez forced Massa off at Les Combes. He kept his car on the track, but you are technically required to keep at least a car's distance between yours and the edge of the track when you're overtaking. Ricciardo made a Red Bull-career over his divebomb-tactics at times like in Hungary and everybody loved it. Alonso straight up hit Hulkenberg in the pitlane.

Drivers are taking risks and are pushing limits with offensive and defensive moves all the time and sometimes they cross it and get it wrong, like Max did at Spa. It can be acknowledged that he had a bad race, I've done so without hesitation. The reaction towards Max though is so excessive like he's an exception. He's not. He usually gets it right. And in terms of getting away with stuff, he's not an exception in that either. But now people are unnecessarily creating a thing out of it, so now if he does something at Italy, he'll get some kind of statement punishment, maybe even a suspension and that would be a shame.
The money? - http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10302300/heineken-seal-multi-year-formula-1-sponsorship-deal

You think Heineken would be in the sport without a top Dutch driver?

You're right you're allow to move to defend your line, but the rules state the following

"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

Waiting for a driver to make a move then forcing him to brake with a late block surely fall under this rule? Doing it while at full speed is extremely dangerous.

If you can show me some footage of Vettel cutting off Verstappen then I'll be happy to judge it. Doing it while under braking is completely different to doing it at 300kph, that's the difference here. Verstappen done the "move in a braking zone to block" thing in Hungary and there wasn't much uproar because if there was a collision then it wouldn't be as dangerous.

Raikkonen vs Grosjean - they left room for each other, they didn't try to force each other off the track, that was good racing. The others I'll need to see again.

Alonso vs Hulk - Bad pitstop release by McLaren, that's a completely different situation. It seems like you're trying to find things to take the discussion away from Verstappen. Not many of them are comparable.

He had a bad race yes, but he's had similar issues in the past 4 races now and doesn't seem to be wanting to learn from it. He used the first corner incident as an excuse for his overly-aggressive and dangerous blocking (
"I'm not going to say: 'come on through'. But all that happened after turn one. If turn one hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been so aggressive and pushed Raikkonen out like that.") He's showing his inexperience at the moment, if he's going to be a champion now is the time for him to prove he can learn and improve because raw talent only gets you so far.

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Platy said:
Jiggy said:
Who said anything about money?

The first move was a wrong one. It's not a Rosberg-like move, but when you do a move like that and you end up going off the track yourself, it's a botched overtake. Same as with Perez. Bad overtake and a bad case of defending from Verstappen.

As with Kimi, you're allowed to move once on the straight to defend your line and Max moved once and it wasn't in the breaking zone. So you won't find a rule book that says what Max did was illegal. Matter fact, around lap 26/27, Vettel cut Max off in a breaking zone at the same corner. Why aren't we talking about that like Vettel is about to kill someone? Raikkonen had a similar bad overtake on Grosjean at Les Combes, hit his rear tyre. Yet they are the ones complaining. Perez forced Massa off at Les Combes. He kept his car on the track, but you are technically required to keep at least a car's distance between yours and the edge of the track when you're overtaking. Ricciardo made a Red Bull-career over his divebomb-tactics at times like in Hungary and everybody loved it. Alonso straight up hit Hulkenberg in the pitlane.

Drivers are taking risks and are pushing limits with offensive and defensive moves all the time and sometimes they cross it and get it wrong, like Max did at Spa. It can be acknowledged that he had a bad race, I've done so without hesitation. The reaction towards Max though is so excessive like he's an exception. He's not. He usually gets it right. And in terms of getting away with stuff, he's not an exception in that either. But now people are unnecessarily creating a thing out of it, so now if he does something at Italy, he'll get some kind of statement punishment, maybe even a suspension and that would be a shame.
The money? - http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10302300/heineken-seal-multi-year-formula-1-sponsorship-deal

You think Heineken would be in the sport without a top Dutch driver?

You're right you're allow to move to defend your line, but the rules state the following

"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted."

Waiting for a driver to make a move then forcing him to brake with a late block surely fall under this rule? Doing it while at full speed is extremely dangerous.

If you can show me some footage of Vettel cutting off Verstappen then I'll be happy to judge it. Doing it while under braking is completely different to doing it at 300kph, that's the difference here. Verstappen done the "move in a braking zone to block" thing in Hungary and there wasn't much uproar because if there was a collision then it wouldn't be as dangerous.

Raikkonen vs Grosjean - they left room for each other, they didn't try to force each other off the track, that was good racing. The others I'll need to see again.

Alonso vs Hulk - Bad pitstop release by McLaren, that's a completely different situation. It seems like you're trying to find things to take the discussion away from Verstappen. Not many of them are comparable.

He had a bad race yes, but he's had similar issues in the past 4 races now and doesn't seem to be wanting to learn from it. He used the first corner incident as an excuse for his overly-aggressive and dangerous blocking (
"I'm not going to say: 'come on through'. But all that happened after turn one. If turn one hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been so aggressive and pushed Raikkonen out like that.") He's showing his inexperience at the moment, if he's going to be a champion now is the time for him to prove he can learn and improve because raw talent only gets you so far.
My point about the money is that nobody brought it up. It's a cynical and imo irrelevant addition to the discussion.

I don't think Max' move at the Kemmel Straight falls under "abnormal change of direction", it was his first defensive move and drivers moving as a reaction to who is behind them is not out of the norm. We've seen great overtakes of drivers anticipating such a defensive move in the past, after which the overtaking driver moved back to the offensive line, leaving the defensive driver with no choice but to keep his line. That's also a thing, Max left the racing line open. Kimi made his move very late as well, knowing that Max hadn't used up his move yet. Had he moved sooner, he could've moved back and went around the outside. But he didn't, so Kimi made a move that was a risk in itself. The move created the opportunity. Max was full in his right to defend like he did in that particular moment and it's more refreshing than half the field sitting like dead ducks for the DRS-overtake.

Moving under breaking is considered as something more dangerous than moving under full speed. It offers a higher chance of a collision. You can lift under full speed, it's easier to move and change direction, you don't have the same freedom under breaking. It's also something that is more explicitly stated as an illegal manouvre than what Max did. Think it was somewhere around the 26th lap. And it's well established that these are different situations. I've brought them up to point out that plenty of drivers take risks that can be spun around into something unacceptable if you view it from a certain light. Moves like Alonso vs. Hulkenberg falls under this category as well. And it's to show that Max is not out of the norm. So it's not taking the discussion away from him. And two of them went overboard in their critique of Max. Kimi and Grosjean made contact. That's not leaving room. Kimi made a move on the inside, it wasn't convincing and Grosjean would've had to compromise his corner entry, maybe even lose full contact with the track in order to avoid contact. He didn't, so they touched. That's fun and all, but you can't be involved in that and also go off on Max for forcing you off the track minutes earlier.

This is also Max Verstappen. I don't think you can have him with the blistering pace, insane overtaking moves and exceptional racecraft without the aggression and the mouthy attitude. In the end, Max made mistakes, but I don't agree that Max needs to learn anything or change much, whether it's his driving or his mentality. Knowing his dad, he'd only get berated if he softened up anyway. Way too early to be making statements like that after the amount of good, mature races he's had on his age. His chances of becoming a champion won't be hurt by his current way of driving and unless he's going to compromise his own races more often, too much of a deal has been made out of this by now.

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I can see this is never going to end, so enjoy watching Verstappen race I just hope he doesn't cause an accident.

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Still a good race tho                                                   

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Jiggy it's braking not breaking... :) I'm with you on Max though, he's within the rules and since F1 is open wheel and they can't risk contact, all he has to do is threaten to cut another driver off and they will back out. (unless they are maldonado). Kimi probably needed to fake and switch back earlier. Max is clearly a great driver and is intent on winning. I don't think he will be respected or liked by many other drivers in the paddock with his actions on track but he will probably end up a champion.

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Platy said:
I can see this is never going to end, so enjoy watching Verstappen race I just hope he doesn't cause an accident.
He might.

Jiggy it's braking not breaking... :) I'm with you on Max though, he's within the rules and since F1 is open wheel and they can't risk contact, all he has to do is threaten to cut another driver off and they will back out. (unless they are maldonado). Kimi probably needed to fake and switch back earlier. Max is clearly a great driver and is intent on winning. I don't think he will be respected or liked by many other drivers in the paddock with his actions on track but he will probably end up a champion.
My bad, was probably thinking of Kitkats when I was posting.

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