2016 Old El Paso Gran Premio de Mexico

[Hughesy 254]

RevolvingPrawn said:

Hughesy said:

 But that's because he braked later than you can, which again is why he locked up, penalty was clear cut for me.

Dude they aren't braking yet in the picture I posted :p Vettel never got side by side with him, never even got his front wing past any part of Verstappen's car. And when Verstappen came back onto the track Vettel was actually closer than he had been before. It just doesn't make sense to me to give him a penalty for that.

Well how is that picture relevant then?  Mine is, Vettel was closing so in my picture he was closer than what you've posted. Where Max braked he was never going to make the corner even if he didn't lock up, hence he gained an advantage. The FIA have a lot more info than you, so on this it backs up what I'm saying ;)

[RevolvingPrawn 1]

Bias from the world biggest fan of Vettel ;) If Verstappen hadn't locked up he still would have kept Vettel behind regardless. And better position to exit turn 3? With grass and crap on his tyres? Seriously?

I don't particularly even like Verstappen, but this penalty just feels wrong to me.

@Hughesy How does it back up what you said? You said Vettel was next to Verstappen, but he wasn't. He's never closer than a car length behind...

Whatever to all of this though, when Hamilton did the exact same thing in T1, Rosberg was actually much closer to being next to him, but of course Hamilton didn't get a penalty. If he had you'd be saying exactly what I'm saying now about Verstappens penalty.

[Hughesy 254]

Lewis locked up at the start of the race which never gets punished, Vettel was much closer and would've got the inside for the next corner. It was a penalty and was seen as a penalty by people that have a lot more information and angles than you.

[RevolvingPrawn 1]

Hughesy said:

Lewis locked up at the start of the race which never gets punished, Vettel was much closer and would've got the inside for the next corner. It was a penalty and was seen as a penalty by people that have a lot more information and angles than you.

Vettel was not closer, he was much further behind than Rosberg was on Hamilton. I'm trying to find a replay so I can screenshot it for you, but on the run down to T1 Rosberg got into Hamilton's slipstream and then pulled to the left so he didn't just drive into Hamilton's rear. Vettel was never that close. And ok, he gets the inside, which immediately becomes the outside where he gets pushed out, it wouldn't have worked. Even if he didn't get pushed out, the Red Bull had better traction on the exit of T3 every lap, you could see that clearly when they were battling in the laps before, so Verstappen likely would have just out accelerated Vettel on the run to T4. And more angles? Why do we need more angles? It's clear enough from the ones shown.

I actually hope Vettel gets a penalty now for moving under braking when Ricciardo went up his inside. Give Ricciardo the 3rd place after Vettel was such a baby about the whole thing.

[RevolvingPrawn 1]

Got it, Rosberg was a full car length closer to Hamilton than Vettel was to Verstappen. I've screen shotted it as close as I can to the moment they look like they start braking. First lap or not, the stewards consistency is pretty shit.

[VetteIfan 0]

RevolvingPrawn said:

Bias from the world biggest fan of Vettel ;) If Verstappen hadn't locked up he still would have kept Vettel behind regardless. And better position to exit turn 3? With grass and crap on his tyres? Seriously?

I don't particularly even like Verstappen, but this penalty just feels wrong to me.

@Hughesy How does it back up what you said? You said Vettel was next to Verstappen, but he wasn't. He's never closer than a car length behind...

Whatever to all of this though, when Hamilton did the exact same thing in T1, Rosberg was actually much closer to being next to him, but of course Hamilton didn't get a penalty. If he had you'd be saying exactly what I'm saying now about Verstappens penalty.

Play the bias card if you want but 95% of fans/pundits agree with the penalty (even Red Bull themselves during the race), so its not a particularly arguable case.

And yes, tyres don't need much grip to go in a straight line. It's not like he was thrust straight back in to a corner. Entering the straight having the car already properly straightened up is a bigger bonus than any penalty that there was from having grass on his tyres. 

[RevolvingPrawn 1]

But what about the fact that going over the grass he's going to be slower starting onto that straight than he would be if he'd taken the corner properly? The fact that Vettel was directly on his rear once he came off the grass despite Vettel taking the corners properly would suggest to me that he actually lost a tenth or 2 rather than gained anything.

Either way, seems the FIA have sort of fixed it now. Vettel 10 second penalty, pushes him back to 5th, making Verstappen's penalty even more pointless, Ricciardo up to 3rd.

[Liaveil 137]

To be honest good on Vettel for calling Max out. He's only said what some people have been thinking about the kid and the outburst showed he was sick of him getting away with everything and it's about time he got punished for something. Whether it was harsh or not it's about time he got penalised for something. Shame they weren't as quick with deciding Vettel's penalty as they were with Max's so we now have two result changes.

[Jiggy 5]

Wynterdust said:

To be honest good on Vettel for calling Max out. He's only said what some people have been thinking about the kid and the outburst showed he was sick of him getting away with everything and it's about time he got punished for something. Whether it was harsh or not it's about time he got penalised for something. Shame they weren't as quick with deciding Vettel's penalty as they were with Max's so we now have two result changes.

Which is mostly veteran/old drivers like Massa and Vettel annoyed that young drivers don't make life as easy as possible for them. First it was the likes of Kobayashi and Perez, then it was Grosjean, now it's Verstappen and all the blue flags because the new guys don't want to move out of the way as soon as possible to the point they go off the track or hit the breaks while 2 seconds ahead like the Minardi's used to do in the old days. Some of it maybe justified, most of it basically whining and people directing their frustrations towards the younger guys.

It's hilarious that basically his bitching has created a situation where you get punished with a 10 second-time penalty for what can be seen as proper hard racing, because everything has to be super clean and super neat and super clinical and out of all people, Vettel is the first one to get it. It has ruined racing in F1 a little bit more, but it's also definitely a bit of poetic justice.

And honestly, Verstappen hasn't even been horrible as Vettel and Kimi are making him out to be. It hasn't been perfect, but he has been driving beyond impressive for the first year and a quarter of his career and  the first real situation started in Germany/Hungary and by then, the Ferrari-drivers had been going on about him for a while. It's also weird "it's about time" he got penalized now because you feel he should've been penalized earlier. So I definitely don't agree with this opinion that Max is this menace, when it's mostly been created by overreacting drivers and fans who want to feel vindicated because they said back then that Max was going to crash every race and was way too young to race in Formula One and when I say fans, it wasn't directed towards you.

[MBKF1 91]

In my personal opinion, I think the penalty was fair for Max, he was pressured into making the mistake and had he not cut the grass, he would have lost the place, and he should have given the position to Vettel.

However, I don't think Vettel's penalty for moving in the braking zone was totally fair. It was absolutely on the limit and he squeezed Ricciardo as much as possible, but he did leave more than a car's width. I'd put that down to hard racing.

The difference between him and Verstappen's late braking position change is that Max cuts across the attacking driver very aggressively, it's a very quick dart across the track, and he doesn't always leave enough space. Vettel here was quite smooth in coming across, and he left just enough space for Ricciardo.

I mean, what are the defending drivers supposed to do? They can't just leave the door wide open and be forced to stick to it, otherwise they're always going to lose the position. They need to be allowed to defend somehow, and in my opinion they should be allowed to come across, as long as they leave at least a car's width, and they come across smoothly, and not suddenly, like Max has done in the past.

Saying that, I do understand why the FIA gave him a penalty, because they are trying to clamp down on this sort of thing. I just think there needs to be more clarity on the rules

[AMSKRR 3]

If anyone ever cuts a corner like that, it is an instant 5 second penalty for me, regardless of the situation. We don't have a gravel trap there to punish the drivers because it is potentially dangerous, and we don't have a barrier there for the same reason. Go back a few years and Hamilton and Max would both be beached in gravel, so a 5 second penalty is quite small in comparison.

[VetteIfan 0]

MBKF1 said:

In my personal opinion, I think the penalty was fair for Max, he was pressured into making the mistake and had he not cut the grass, he would have lost the place, and he should have given the position to Vettel.

However, I don't think Vettel's penalty for moving in the braking zone was totally fair. It was absolutely on the limit and he squeezed Ricciardo as much as possible, but he did leave more than half a car's width. I'd put that down to hard racing.

The difference between him and Verstappen's late braking position change is that Max cuts across the attacking driver very aggressively, it's a very quick dart across the track, and he doesn't always leave enough space. Vettel here was quite smooth in coming across, and he left just enough space for Ricciardo.

I mean, what are the defending drivers supposed to do? They can't just leave the door wide open and be forced to stick to it, otherwise they're always going to lose the position. They need to be allowed to defend somehow, and in my opinion they should be allowed to come across, as long as they leave at least a car's width, and they come across smoothly, and not suddenly, like Max has done in the past.

Saying that, I do understand why the FIA gave him a penalty, because they are trying to clamp down on this sort of thing. I just think there needs to be more clarity on the rules

Pretty much agree with all of this. The wording used in the penalty report was that it was "potentially dangerous" which I don't agree with. He didn't chop in front of Ricciardo's path or abruptly block him off, he squeezed Ricciardo to the inner portion of the track when they were side by side and they just rubbed against each other as they took the corner. It's on the limit, but it's a type of move we've seen countless times, and before all the talk of the "Verstappen rule" no-one had any problem with it. 

[Jiggy 5]

I wouldn't. But now because of the Verstappen-rule, I'm supposed to have a problem with it. I don't think people in general should be getting penalties for what Vettel did and for what Verstappen has done, but let's assume I take this rule seriously. Then I would say that the difference between Max and Seb is that they broke a rule in a different manner. They still both broke the rule. There aren't levels to it. Moving under breaking is suddenly making a strong move to either side and moving under breaking is also squeezing someone to the point of unavoidable contact. So you penalize both if you want to be as strict as they say they would be.

I do expect a lot of more stupid penalty's to be given out in the near future over this.