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PJTierney

 

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Areyouben said:
zissakos1 said:
The thing is: why would such a highly acclaimed, highly capable developer like Codemasters, that has ALREADY implemented VR support, in a RALLY TITLE, not include this right from the start, in the sequel to that critically acclaimed great game???
This is just not understandable. Why can't the same implementation be used, at least for the beginning? And then be refined later.
It's not that easy to do. I'll quote myself from another thread:
Areyouben said:
Having worked on a few VR projects I would like to share these points:

- VR is awesome!
- VR has a future in simracing.
- VR implementation is NOT a matter of clicking a few buttons.
- VR implementation is NOT a matter of copy/paste from previous games.
- VR market share is still very low compared to traditional single and triple screen setups.
- Game development is a business, which consists of making choices throughout development that make financial sense.

So to conclude: I'm not hating on VR, VR is awesome! But I'm not at all surprised about the missing of VR support at launch. It is a lot of work to implement. And in order to do all that work Codies needs to invest extra money which is difficult to justify if only a small portion of your player base is actually going to use it.

It is kind of why no big developers worked on Kinect games. It was pretty cool tech as well but with a very low market share so it did not make sense to invest money in something not profitable.

I'm not saying VR is the same as Kinect, or that it will fail like Kinect did. I would love to see DR 2.0 get VR support, it's just that the current market isn't there yet so for some developers it's difficult to justify the investment.
Can we put this as a sticky somewhere? I know that if you don’t ask you don’t get, and if enough people are asking for it they might have a look after release, but going on and on making the same stupid points like ‘just copy it from the last game’ are unhelpful and irritating

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if you want to compete and be in the field of racing sims in 2018 you have to offer vr.

except from automobilista every major modern racing sim offers vr. automobilista doesnt offer it due to their old engine.

iracing, ac, rf2, pcars1/2, r3e, (acc with the next update)

maybe their target audience is console arcarde gaming. then thats fine. but the first dr wasnt. so thats whats having me sceptic. if you consider that the percentage on steam of wheel owners is right about the same of the percentage of vr owners you have to wonder why they would bother including wheel support aswell.

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It’s been just over 24 hours since the announcement, there’s been many posts about vr and I’m sure it’s been noted. 

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Am I right in thinking @urgaffel mentioned we may get more game info today? Or have I made that up?
That would be something you made up yes :)

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zissakos1 said:
But how much do you think it is?? I estimate it's 1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer. Maybe less if assigned to 2 programmers.
Remember, the task is: Import VR functionality from DR and finetune/polish it until it works for DR2.0.
It's a lot more work than that. Making things work in VR involves almost every discipline, it's not just "1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer".

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Some questions from me:

1 Any info on mod support for DR2.0?
2 Could you share any more info on reworked physics? Will cars be able to lock wheels on braking for example? Also as measured by community it took cars 100m and 2 seconds to stop from 100km/h to 0km/h on any surface- is it a thing of a past now?
3 Will it be possible to prevent cars from "resetting"  after going off the road? 
4 How long will stages be in km?

@urgaffel @ChristinaMc

Thanks!

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zissakos1 said:
I know all this. Of course it is some effort. Of course it is not copy paste, even if taken from Dirt Rally.
But how much do you think it is?? I estimate it's 1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer. Maybe less if assigned to 2 programmers.
Remember, the task is: Import VR functionality from DR and finetune/polish it until it works for DR2.0.

Now, DR2.0 will have been in the making for almost 2 years when released in Feb 2019. TWO YEARS.
And there was no possibility to assign this task to 1-2 programmers in the project?
I just don't believe that.

Why do you guys always defend Codemasters without them having said anything like that? Why don't you let them answer these uncomfortable questions? Why don't you keep the pressure up until the last conservative manager at CM understands that VR is must these days, even despite all the arguments you listed?

If we keep "understanding" the developers, if we keep explaining the lack of VR to ourselves, if we keep saying that VR is "sooo small a userbase", then THINGS WILL NEVER CHANGE.

Somewhere along the line everyone seems to have come under the assumption game development takes less time than it actually does. Everyone used to see it as an art that really took time and incredible talent, which it does, and that being lost is a real shame. 

However that came about it has plagued this forum and every other forum I've ever been on.

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zissakos1 said:
I know all this. Of course it is some effort. Of course it is not copy paste, even if taken from Dirt Rally.
But how much do you think it is?? I estimate it's 1-2 weeks for one experienced programmer. Maybe less if assigned to 2 programmers.
Remember, the task is: Import VR functionality from DR and finetune/polish it until it works for DR2.0.

Now, DR2.0 will have been in the making for almost 2 years when released in Feb 2019. TWO YEARS.
And there was no possibility to assign this task to 1-2 programmers in the project?
I just don't believe that.

Why do you guys always defend Codemasters without them having said anything like that? Why don't you let them answer these uncomfortable questions? Why don't you keep the pressure up until the last conservative manager at CM understands that VR is must these days, even despite all the arguments you listed?

If we keep "understanding" the developers, if we keep explaining the lack of VR to ourselves, if we keep saying that VR is "sooo small a userbase", then THINGS WILL NEVER CHANGE.

You need to live in the real world and understand why we understand. Its very easy to bash around the notion that "1-2 programmers could work on it easy and make it in 1-2 weeks", how did you even come to this ridiculous assesment?

It's very well known that game developers work long hours and work up until and further than the release. It's the same way as saying "oh anyone can be an F1 driver, its just driving really fast around the track" when they undergo extensive personal training routines outside of the race, mental preperations and then countless R&D and testing on the cars and reporting back. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that we don't see, same with game developers.

Self-entitledness in gaming has gotten to an all-time high these days.

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the start crowdfunding.

i am 100% positive that vr simracers would support that.

heck make a freaking vr dlc and make it 40$ i dont mind. i would be buying it in an instant if its properly supported.

there is no reason not to support it, all their games would benefit from them doing the work once for their "new" engine.

there has been demand since every codemasters release after dirt rally and yet they never did anything.

just do something and dont pretend that there wouldnt be demand. they playing the same record with the "we see if there is demand" they played with dirt4. there was demand, a lot of people wwant it, yet they never did anything.

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True, you didn’t say it was easy but you did say it would be 1-2 weeks of work for one(1) experienced programmer. This is simply not true since making something work in VR and to high degree of polish required more than just a programmer. You need ui, art, QA and more to help bring it all together.

Im not offended, all I’m saying is that it’s a bit more than just a quick one, two week job.

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I am not a programmer so I don’t know how much of the VR code can be easily ported over but that’s beside the point.

Once you have VR up and running you need to do a lot of work to make everything else support it such as the ui, manage art for performance and so on. Then there’s the testing to make sure it works on a wide range of hardware. Turning on VR is only the first step of many :)

nothing is ever as easy as including some code and turning it on.

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zissakos1 said:

urgaffel said:
True, you didn’t say it was easy but you did say it would be 1-2 weeks of work for one(1) experienced programmer. This is simply not true since making something work in VR and to high degree of polish required more than just a programmer. You need ui, art and more to help bring it all together.

Im not offended, all I’m saying is that it’s a bit more than just a quick one, two week job.
Just to make sure we're on the same page:
By "it" I meant "include the VR code from DR and make it work", not "implement a new VR implementation from scratch".

If that's what you meant, then my estimation was not correct and I am willing to learn. Thanks for clarifying.
I don’t really know much about coding, but I’m pretty sure it is definitely not a case of copying stuff over. What works with one game isn’t necessarily going to work with another 

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zissakos1 said:
I don’t really know much about coding, but I’m pretty sure it is definitely not a case of copying stuff over. What works with one game isn’t necessarily going to work with another 
Yes. Again: I never said that.
You said exactly that:

 "Remember, the task is: Import VR functionality from DR and finetune/polish it until it works for DR2.0."

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Okay, took me more than a day to stop squealing about the old Golf GTI and Argentina inclusion. \o/

Also - Haters/ignorant people gonna hate i guess. 

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DiRT Rally 2.0 is coming and the entire forum turns to VR discussion.

I don’t have it, I won’t miss it.  I’m looking forward to the things to come!!  B)

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KevM said:
DiRT Rally 2.0 is coming and the entire forum turns to VR discussion.

I don’t have it, I won’t miss it.  I’m looking forward to the things to come!!  B)

well, just shows that there actually is demand for it right?
the thing that some misunderstand is that vr and non vr is that it can coexist perfectly fine in simracing without influencing the other. this is not a design choice pro vr and against 2d, it doesnt alter the gameplay in any kind of way. its simply another option for users to experience the game in an even more immersive manner.

its like supporting a wide variety of input types. from h pattern shifters, to analogue handbrakes. from direct drive ffb wheels to entry level driving force gts. from a single screen setup to a vr headset.

the beauty is that everybody should choose his own palette of input and display devices.

the truth is that they would need to implement it properly once with their newest engine. that would be invested money and development time. i am not doubting that this costs money. but at the end of the day all their upcoming releases on the same engine would benefit from the decision to do that once.

its not like they have to write their own sdk, they know how vr headsets work, they had a proper full working and vr implementation in one of their games already. its not just copying from one game to the other, but it is taking what your learned from your last approach and fitting it to your newest engine.

again, set up a freaking crowdfunding for vr support. you people who dont own vr and are against it will be surprised how willing we actually are to pay for good vr support. we know how transformative vr is for simracing.

we are the community that is willing to spend thousands on their rigs. our main goal is to make simracing as realistic and immersive as possible, because we dont have the time and money to go racing on real cars in the real world. we invest in direct drive wheels that give us better feeling, we invest in expensive pedalsets that give us better feeling, we invest in hpattern shifters, in handbrakes, in real car seats some invest in wind simulation some invest in motion simulation. so we sure as hell wouldnt scare away from investing another 50$ in to proper vr implementation for the next generation of rally and f1 games.

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Most of the guys  arguing about VR support in this thread forget that there are at least as much players on consoles as there are playing in PC and that going the VR way in PS4 is way easier and cheaper than in the PC. I know that implementing the game in VR is not as easy as someone sugested and costs time, money and assets, but i trully believe there is enough market (at least in the consoles side) to justify it. 
I understand when people say they won't buy it without VR support. Once you try, it's hard to play without it. I own 5 ou 6 driving games for my console and i still play almost exclusively DR just because it has VR, and that was the only reason i never bought D4.
If codemasters anounced 2.0 has VR (or even if they promised it in a future payed DLC), i would surely and immediatly take a leap of faith and pre-order the deluxe version. In the current state, i will probably just wait and see where this thing goes and stick with the old and beautifull DR 1.0...

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why not invest the time and money to make vr possible available on your engine once and then profit from it?
you can make a dlc for dirt4 and the f1 games. we would all love to have and pay for vr support.

(although i still think that if you release a full price simracing title you have little to no arguemnts on your side in 2018 to release it without vr support to begin with - this is not a 20$ indie release. this is a full 60$ release)

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I'm gonna get back to speculating on stuff we know, I can't wait to hear/see more on the surface degradation. I've mentioned it a few times as it would really take the game to the next level and make it varied and fresh to drive on the stage if its slightly different each time, I'd be interested to see how this is implemented online as well. The only game I know of that really did this was Sega Rally Revo a number of years back, it was pretty cool to see the tracks made from the wheels and just gave it an extra nice edge.

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I'm gonna get back to speculating on stuff we know, I can't wait to hear/see more on the surface degradation. I've mentioned it a few times as it would really take the game to the next level and make it varied and fresh to drive on the stage if its slightly different each time, I'd be interested to see how this is implemented online as well. The only game I know of that really did this was Sega Rally Revo a number of years back, it was pretty cool to see the tracks made from the wheels and just gave it an extra nice edge.
Yeah I can’t wait to hear more in this, and also tyre choice and how that is going to affect gameplay.

Im also interested to see what team management aspects will transfer over from d4 and what’s been improved. I hope we get a livery editor again, even if it is a simple one like dirt 4

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I'm gonna get back to speculating on stuff we know, I can't wait to hear/see more on the surface degradation. I've mentioned it a few times as it would really take the game to the next level and make it varied and fresh to drive on the stage if its slightly different each time, I'd be interested to see how this is implemented online as well. The only game I know of that really did this was Sega Rally Revo a number of years back, it was pretty cool to see the tracks made from the wheels and just gave it an extra nice edge.
Yeah I can’t wait to hear more in this, and also tyre choice and how that is going to affect gameplay.

Im also interested to see what team management aspects will transfer over from d4 and what’s been improved. I hope we get a livery editor again, even if it is a simple one like dirt 4
Yeah the tyre choice should be cool, this leads me to believe we may be getting mixed surfaces which would be great. I want to give tarmac tyres a go on gravel for a good hoon.

I would expect the livery editor to carry over with hopefully some advanced features like making our own pattern instead of picking a pre-set shape, something along the lines of Forza would be insane.

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MTOJay said:
the start crowdfunding.

i am 100% positive that vr simracers would support that.

heck make a freaking vr dlc and make it 40$ i dont mind. i would be buying it in an instant if its properly supported.

there is no reason not to support it, all their games would benefit from them doing the work once for their "new" engine.

there has been demand since every codemasters release after dirt rally and yet they never did anything.

just do something and dont pretend that there wouldnt be demand. they playing the same record with the "we see if there is demand" they played with dirt4. there was demand, a lot of people wwant it, yet they never did anything.
I think the only thing you'll find that does is prove just how small of a market VR really is. 

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