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PJTierney

 

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High downforce doesn't mean understeer though. Low downforce can induce oversteer because the tyres aren't gripping, but higher downforce just produces better handling, not understeer.

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I have no idea how downforce really works (other than basic stuff; such as having a massive wing helps keeping the car glued to the road at high speeds), or how it applies in-game - I just know that the car movement on tarmac is way off. Hovercraft like. If they put V1 movement back, combined with V2 physics... it would be a masterpiece.

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Yeah, Ryu, i see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't make sense because you don't appear to know how downforce affects understeer/oversteer.

It might not be working correctly in game, but your theory looks like Swiss cheese, sorry.

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Not wanting to throw too big a gossip bomb into the mix but we have some stuff planned to address some of this stuff. 

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KickUp said:
Not wanting to throw too big a gossip bomb into the mix but we have some stuff planned to address some of this stuff. 
#physicsV3confirmed :o ;)                                 

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Yeah, Ryu, i see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't make sense because you don't appear to know how downforce affects understeer/oversteer.
Too much downforce at the rear = understeer.
Too much downforce at the front = oversteer.
No downforce at all = only tire grip/traction applies.

I know the basics of how downforce affects the cars. Generally speaking the more downforce the better as long as it's balanced, however 208 has such a big wing at the back that you can actually clip stuff with it, yet it is the most tail happy car in the game (especially at higher speeds), which suggests that there's no downforce created from that rear wing (or it's setup to create rear-end lift, along with pretty much every other car in the game). However at low speeds, you have massive issues making the car slide in any form. Given that a ginormous wing will create more downforce than a front splitter, it's not that far off a stretch to say that there should be a lot of oversteer at low speed and not much, if any, at high speeds.

If you compare this behaviour with any other racing sim, you can easily notice that regardless of the aero, the cars will have tendency to oversteer badly on low speeds when you put the power down. Even 4WD/AWD cars. Especially the lighter the cars get. And those that depend a lot on the aero become a lot more stable on higher speeds. None of those characteristics match anything the game is showing. In fact, they match more the inverted pattern of those.
KevM said:
Do F1 cars suffer chronic understeer around 2nd Gear chicanes but go full tail-out oversteer drift round 180mph bends? 
That's my point. They don't do that. But in this game, they would. In DR you have most of the time chronic understeer on those low speed chicanes/hairpins and tail out oversteer at high speeds. What does that say about the downforce in DR? That it behaves in the exact opposite of how it does in real life.

On top of that the change is progressive, not sudden. So the understeer lowers the faster you go, up to a point where it's in a balance with oversteer, from which the oversteer starts increasing.

It's not a far stretch to say that some value regarding aero model has been set in a wrong way and it affects the physics in the way it was not intended to. If they would want, they could code so we would be driving on the roof and we would have better performance than as if we would be driving normally on wheels. Along with being able to steer without the front wheels ever making contact with the ground. It's a game, or to be specific a piece of software. If Devs want something to happen, they can make it happen. The problem starts when they want to re-create something accurately. Especially something that no one actually truly comprehends, as in real life physics. On top of that the hardware limitations make it so you can't have real-time physics in all of their glory. So having just one value wrong can ruin everything else. Relativity is such an interesting topic, you know?


I do understand that this is the exact opposite of how real life works. But we're talking about DR physics, which on top of not being real-time, they are made by humans who have tendency to make mistakes. So instead of trying to apply my theory to real life, which is just stupid, apply it only to the game. If I wouldn't be on to something, then there would be some cars that would not oversteer like mad on high speeds. But there really aren't. Even though not all have chronic understeer at low speeds, all have that oversteer at high. Therefore the inverted aero, which gives you the downforce at 0 km/h that you would normally have at 200 km/h+ results most of the time with understeer, due to... yes, rear wings on cars providing more downforce than front splitters, which most rally cars don't have. That downforce starts decreasing with speed, which results in... yes, oversteer. If you don't have downforce that will aid the rear-end grip, it's rather easy to get a tail out while cornering. See Stig pushing the Koenigsegg CCX around the Top Gear test track. Physics work fine, it's just the aero that is applied in the wrong way that makes a lot of stuff work plain out incorrect.

Good physics + aero applied in an incorrect way = poo happens.

Also, did no one notice that V2 cars jump shorter than V1 cars at low speeds? Or rather, where the V2 cars stay planted, the V1 were slightly catching air. I find it fascinating.

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Not gossip but an offtopic thing. Guess what, our beloved ISP blocked the VPN for video games. We are no longer able to play games online. This ISP is the oligopolic one in the whole country that provides DSL lines.

On-topic, that bomb is possibly the end of DiRT Rally series. bye

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Darhour said:
Not gossip but an offtopic thing. Guess what, our beloved ISP blocked the VPN for video games. We are no longer able to play games online. This ISP is the oligopolic one in the whole country that provides DSL lines.

On-topic, that bomb is possibly the end of DiRT Rally series. bye
Dude, that sucks, what the heck back-asswards country do you work for?

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Too much downforce at the rear = understeer.
Too much downforce at the front = oversteer.
No downforce at all = only tire grip/traction applies.


.....rear wings on cars providing more downforce than front splitters, which most rally cars don't have. That downforce starts decreasing with speed, which results in... yes, oversteer. If you don't have downforce that will aid the rear-end grip, it's rather easy to get a tail out while cornering. See Stig pushing the Koenigsegg CCX around the Top Gear test track. Physics work fine, it's just the aero that is applied in the wrong way that makes a lot of stuff work plain out incorrect.

Also, did no one notice that V2 cars jump shorter than V1 cars at low speeds? Or rather, where the V2 cars stay planted, the V1 were slightly catching air. I find it fascinating.
Alright, first section, good :)

Second section:
Rear wings are adjustable.  They are setup to be a balance on the car and work with the remaining aero so it doesn't provide that over powered experience you're describing.

When you say that "That downforce starts decreasing with speed, which results in... yes, oversteer." - Do you mean in game? or IRL?   IRL the first part is true, esp older cars, they get lighter with speed, but it doesn't induce oversteer.  What it *DOES* do, is make steering very light and a lot more sensitive, which can be felt as over-steer.

Third section:
I hadn't noticed that, although a lot of the V2 work was with suspension movement, it was very static (comparatively) with V1, the games version of 'downforce' meant that it was loaded far more than gravity would otherwise dictate.

What you see with V2 is more slack movement, allowing wheels to remain in contact over rises more than with V1, but it also allows for more compression 'jumping' off of high speed stuff in V2.
Aero is modeled in game (as i understand it) but it's a simplistic model and it was designed with V1. (citation needed)
The jumps in Finland are an example of the disconnect here, they jump realistically, and fall realistically, with the exception of the aero acting correctly in conjunction with the gravity once the upward movement has been overcome.

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Yeah, Ryu, i see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't make sense because you don't appear to know how downforce affects understeer/oversteer.
Too much downforce at the rear = understeer.
Too much downforce at the front = oversteer.
No downforce at all = only tire grip/traction applies.

I know the basics of how downforce affects the cars. Generally speaking the more downforce the better as long as it's balanced, however 208 has such a big wing at the back that you can actually clip stuff with it, yet it is the most tail happy car in the game (especially at higher speeds), which suggests that there's no downforce created from that rear wing (or it's setup to create rear-end lift, along with pretty much every other car in the game). However at low speeds, you have massive issues making the car slide in any form. Given that a ginormous wing will create more downforce than a front splitter, it's not that far off a stretch to say that there should be a lot of oversteer at low speed and not much, if any, at high speeds.

If you compare this behaviour with any other racing sim, you can easily notice that regardless of the aero, the cars will have tendency to oversteer badly on low speeds when you put the power down. Even 4WD/AWD cars. Especially the lighter the cars get. And those that depend a lot on the aero become a lot more stable on higher speeds. None of those characteristics match anything the game is showing. In fact, they match more the inverted pattern of those.
KevM said:
Do F1 cars suffer chronic understeer around 2nd Gear chicanes but go full tail-out oversteer drift round 180mph bends? 
That's my point. They don't do that. But in this game, they would. In DR you have most of the time chronic understeer on those low speed chicanes/hairpins and tail out oversteer at high speeds. What does that say about the downforce in DR? That it behaves in the exact opposite of how it does in real life.

On top of that the change is progressive, not sudden. So the understeer lowers the faster you go, up to a point where it's in a balance with oversteer, from which the oversteer starts increasing.

It's not a far stretch to say that some value regarding aero model has been set in a wrong way and it affects the physics in the way it was not intended to. If they would want, they could code so we would be driving on the roof and we would have better performance than as if we would be driving normally on wheels. Along with being able to steer without the front wheels ever making contact with the ground. It's a game, or to be specific a piece of software. If Devs want something to happen, they can make it happen. The problem starts when they want to re-create something accurately. Especially something that no one actually truly comprehends, as in real life physics. On top of that the hardware limitations make it so you can't have real-time physics in all of their glory. So having just one value wrong can ruin everything else. Relativity is such an interesting topic, you know?


I do understand that this is the exact opposite of how real life works. But we're talking about DR physics, which on top of not being real-time, they are made by humans who have tendency to make mistakes. So instead of trying to apply my theory to real life, which is just stupid, apply it only to the game. If I wouldn't be on to something, then there would be some cars that would not oversteer like mad on high speeds. But there really aren't. Even though not all have chronic understeer at low speeds, all have that oversteer at high. Therefore the inverted aero, which gives you the downforce at 0 km/h that you would normally have at 200 km/h+ results most of the time with understeer, due to... yes, rear wings on cars providing more downforce than front splitters, which most rally cars don't have. That downforce starts decreasing with speed, which results in... yes, oversteer. If you don't have downforce that will aid the rear-end grip, it's rather easy to get a tail out while cornering. See Stig pushing the Koenigsegg CCX around the Top Gear test track. Physics work fine, it's just the aero that is applied in the wrong way that makes a lot of stuff work plain out incorrect.

Good physics + aero applied in an incorrect way = poo happens.

Also, did no one notice that V2 cars jump shorter than V1 cars at low speeds? Or rather, where the V2 cars stay planted, the V1 were slightly catching air. I find it fascinating.
It's not even like that in the game though sweet-cheeks, but you seem happy to have solved the issue for the guys, so congrats on that.

All @KickUp needs to do, is put a "-" sign into the aero value of the physics engine, & it's all schweet-to-the-beat!!

:)

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KickUp said:
Not wanting to throw too big a gossip bomb into the mix but we have some stuff planned to address some of this stuff. 
Now that makes things interesting! When can we know more? ;)

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If it was as simple as being the wrong way round it would have probably been corrected. Unfortunately modelling aero is probably pretty dam difficult, especially when the game is already modelling a hell of a lot of other stuff, and doing so very well!

Also, I have understood very little of most of the last few posts

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Darhour said:
Not gossip but an offtopic thing. Guess what, our beloved ISP blocked the VPN for video games. We are no longer able to play games online. This ISP is the oligopolic one in the whole country that provides DSL lines.

On-topic, that bomb is possibly the end of DiRT Rally series. bye
Dude, that sucks, what the heck back-asswards country do you work for?
It is Morocco. You've probably heard the news mantling all around the world for the conflict between the Polisario front that claims their illusory Western Sahara which is basically inhabited by Moroccan Sahraouis and MINURSO exclusion from Morocco. Also the diplomatic issues with the US and the countries that voted for self-governance. I would say that the reason why such action was taken and also many terrorist attempts to bombard touristic resorts, restaurants, cafes, to assassinate police officers and people were dissolved and the members behind the depicted attempts were arrested. CoD, CS, BF, GTA, ARMA and all warfare games deliver violence within the players so because of that, that action of banning the VPN service was taken and many more. We're pending reasons for such masking and what I listed were just speculations.

We are under pressure and challenges nowadays.

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They developed the whole game around the V1 physics and then had to make an unplanned V2 pass making major changes. It's not a huge guess that affected certain things in a bad way. Things they didn't have time/resources to correct.

I think they learned a great deal from the whole DR Early access that will bare fruit for the next project. Awesome fruit ;)

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bogani said:
They developed the whole game around the V1 physics and then had to make an unplanned V2 pass making major changes. It's not a huge guess that affected certain things in a bad way. Things they didn't have time/resources to correct.

I think they learned a great deal from the whole DR Early access that will bare fruit for the next project. Awesome fruit ;)
Finally, Here's a man who 'gets it' !

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gfRally said:
JZStudios said:
I'm just waiting for a cheaper headset alternative. The Oculus would be cool for $300, but definitely not worth $600. And the Vive does more than I need, and while it can do interesting things, they'll never get over the limitations of your room scale, thus requiring every game to teleport you. If Google Cardboard is $5, why isn't there a headset with a motion controller for $200?
Google cardboard relies on a $500+ phone (if you buy it out of contract)

but I do agree they need to get cheaper, but I am afraid this has set a precedent, the one you want will always be $500, the cheaper version will be the older tech.  
Well, technically. It just needs a high res screen with a gyrometer.
Darhour said:
Darhour said:
Not gossip but an offtopic thing. Guess what, our beloved ISP blocked the VPN for video games. We are no longer able to play games online. This ISP is the oligopolic one in the whole country that provides DSL lines.

On-topic, that bomb is possibly the end of DiRT Rally series. bye
Dude, that sucks, what the heck back-asswards country do you work for?
It is Morocco. You've probably heard the news mantling all around the world for the conflict between the Polisario front that claims their illusory Western Sahara which is basically inhabited by Moroccan Sahraouis and MINURSO exclusion from Morocco. Also the diplomatic issues with the US and the countries that voted for self-governance. I would say that the reason why such action was taken and also many terrorist attempts to bombard touristic resorts, restaurants, cafes, to assassinate police officers and people were dissolved and the members behind the depicted attempts were arrested. CoD, CS, BF, GTA, ARMA and all warfare games deliver violence within the players so because of that, that action of banning the VPN service was taken and many more. We're pending reasons for such masking and what I listed were just speculations.

We are under pressure and challenges nowadays.
Sounds.... fun. Good luck be with you.

I'm surely not the only one who expected this right? The V2 physics were shoehorned in to an already full schedule, and they continuously said they weren't exactly happy with it and wanted to change it.

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KickUp said:
Not wanting to throw too big a gossip bomb into the mix but we have some stuff planned to address some of this stuff. 
boom.gif

Fantastic news, Paul! Finally something to wash away the bad taste of GT Sport's unveiling.

Still can't believe I wasted my time watching that train wreck when I could've been playing DR instead. 

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zoliRX said:
KickUp said:
Not wanting to throw too big a gossip bomb into the mix but we have some stuff planned to address some of this stuff. 
boom.gif

Fantastic news, Paul! Finally something to wash away the bad taste of GT Sport's unveiling.

Still can't believe I wasted my time watching that train wreck when I could've been playing DR instead. 
very uninspired trailer, I don't know much about the game being an xbox owner, but that certainly didn't do anything to make me want to jump ship

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GT Sport looks like nothing more than the old prologue we use to get before the full GT. Still, It's Gran Turismo... so I'll get it anyway.

Been playing them for the last 17 years, no point in stopping now! Ironically, 17 years ago all I played on my PS1 was Colin McRae Rally and Gran Turismo. Come November all I'll be playing is DiRT Rally and GT Sport on my PS4 :D

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Evilsmurf said:

GT Sport looks like nothing more than the old prologue we use to get before the full GT. Still, It's Gran Turismo... so I'll get it anyway.

Been playing them for the last 17 years, no point in stopping now! Ironically, 17 years ago all I played on my PS1 was Colin McRae Rally and Gran Turismo. Come November all I'll be playing is DiRT Rally and GT Sport on my PS4 :D


Sorry for going further off topic, but is GT similar to forza with all the customisation? or is it only cosmetic as shown in the trailer? Because from the trailer it didn't look like it offered much more than forza, other than quantity of cars and tracks, which I'm not really interested in when forza already has a lot, and very detailed ones.

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Evilsmurf said:

GT Sport looks like nothing more than the old prologue we use to get before the full GT. Still, It's Gran Turismo... so I'll get it anyway.

Been playing them for the last 17 years, no point in stopping now! Ironically, 17 years ago all I played on my PS1 was Colin McRae Rally and Gran Turismo. Come November all I'll be playing is DiRT Rally and GT Sport on my PS4 :D

^ Everything he said. 

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GT is Sony's answer to Microsoft's Forza. A full GT game will have around 40-50 tracks 900+ cars, full tuning and customising, custom replay options, full photo mode, basically-everything Forza has.

GT Sport looks like a cut down version of what the full game will be like. Historically, from around GT3 I think, GT has always released a prologue version of the game, basically a big demo up to a year before the full game. My guess is GT Sport is a taster of what's to come. 

I enjoy both Forza and GT as I did have both consoles for a while.


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