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DiRTy Gossip about DIRT Rally Games

PJTierney

 

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I hope @justbiglee‌'s role is safe, it seems quiet in the forums today  :s
I would guess he doesn't have time today.  He probably has his hands full from ALL directions, internally and outside with other media wondering what is up.

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OK, first off…I do hope some news (or an open beta) is coming soon…if so, disregard most of what’s below. If not...

I check this forum almost daily in hopes that there will be ANYTHING regarding a Dirt 4 release. All I can tell is that there is definitely a Dirt 4 in the works and seems to be quite good as those who've seen/played it are quite pleased with it and those involved in the development are very proud of it.

Lee (justbiglee) you seem like a great guy with an impossible job, but for the life of me I can't understand Codemasters' marketing strategy. Let's go!! Beat the drum; screenshots, videos...an official announcement that the freaking thing even exists...anything! It's been waaaaaaay too long since Dirt 3.

I'm a PC guy with a cockpit and triple screen setup, I feel like I’ve got a pretty good gauge of what’s going on with this genre. I check all the popular sim news sites like ISR, VirtualR, bsimracing...come on, put some news out. Dirt 4 should be blowing its own horn much more than you guys are doing. I've read Lee's explanations of how his hands are tied here and he can't say anything. That's the weirdest and most contradictory means of advertising a game I've ever seen! It makes no sense at all!?! How does saying NOTHING about the thing you’re so proud of do anything at all for future sales? You guys have touted this title as being a return to pure rallying and less of the arcade stuff, so why not let the sim racing community know what you’re up to?! Even if you’re not interested in trying to win back the “sim snobs”, most of which have completely written Codies off, you could at least get something out that would be seen by the average gamer.

In these modern times of open betas and companies reaching out to their audiences a la Project Cars or Assetto Corsa, where complete and total transparency is the new norm, Codemasters’ approach is a complete anachronism and you’re coming off as a company out of touch with its own fan base. Let’s face it, Codemasters could use some positive PR…get it going for Gawd’s sake.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, just looking forward to Dirt 4’s eventual release one of these years. As far as suggestions…how about anything…anything…at…all; a picture…a video…a list of tracks…a list of cars…a description of content…an open beta…a demo…anything…just anything!

As far as game suggestions, how about real rally stages in modern and historic cars? Another thing, how about put a GPS on a real rally car while it runs the real world WRC stages and capture all the data from the stages and put that in the game? Every turn and every jump and every elevation change. Mount some GoPro cameras on the car and capture the scenery and feel with the spectators and crowds that surround the stages…can’t get much more realistic than that. Tailor the game to what the player wants…casual gamer gets shorter stages with relaxed handling and the hardcore crowd gets what they want too…long narrow stages with realistic handling. Richard Burns Rally with the modern insane graphics that you guys are capable of.

Ok…rant over. Love most of everything in the Dirt series (except gymkhana) and am really looking forward to the next iteration…hence the passionate rant. Have a great weekend all.

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OK...that was an ill-timed first post. I guess there IS some news regarding Dirt 4...LAYOFFS!!

Apologies to anyone at Codies who got the pink slip...bad news indeed. Hope @justbiglee dodged the bullet.

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Going by the article Codemaster's hasn't got any licensing for any cars and it may be a while until we hear anything about the game if or if not the game will come out.

Hoping @justbiglee will have more about this situation.

Here's another article from Gamespot

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This is terrible news. I really have no insights into this, but I thought Codies were doing alright? Not getting on the current gen console train with GRID AS and F1 2014 seemed to be a strange path to follow, the articles hints at that being a reason for them not selling as much. I for one did not buy Autosport because it was on last gen, I was voting for a current gen game with my money. I am now starting to doubt that decision.

I have always enjoyed playing Codies games and to me they have always been one of the hallmarks of game development, pretty much ever since I became aware there is such a thing as games, sometime back in the eighties. 

If it would come to it I would gladly hoist up the money for a new rally game in advance, for some kind of early beta access or alike. 

Bottom line, I just hope everybody affected will be alright, I know loosing ones job can be a pain. Especially if you really like what you are doing. With all the passion coming from people at Codemasters in the past I really hope the studio will prevail!

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Sad to hear this. Normally puts everyone on a downer until the situation is resolved.

Sounds like as Dirt has come too far not to have another release of it sooner or later. But I expect CM will be focussing on F1 in the short term rather than Dirt.

Early access is a good idea. Who knows, I might even buy a PC for it.

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dirt3joe said:
Sad to hear this. Normally puts everyone on a downer until the situation is resolved.

Sounds like as Dirt has come too far not to have another release of it sooner or later. But I expect CM will be focussing on F1 in the short term rather than Dirt.

Early access is a good idea. Who knows, I might even buy a PC for it.
I would take EA even if it was a couple of cars at first, I end up playing 1 car all the way through anyhow then switch.  In fact Most EA titles have added licenses slowly, I would guess this is partially due to the success of the product, more cash = more licenses.  

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gfRally said:
dirt3joe said:
Sad to hear this. Normally puts everyone on a downer until the situation is resolved.

Sounds like as Dirt has come too far not to have another release of it sooner or later. But I expect CM will be focussing on F1 in the short term rather than Dirt.

Early access is a good idea. Who knows, I might even buy a PC for it.
I would take EA even if it was a couple of cars at first, I end up playing 1 car all the way through anyhow then switch.  In fact Most EA titles have added licenses slowly, I would guess this is partially due to the success of the product, more cash = more licenses.  
From CM's perspective EA reduces risk. They can check out that people actually like the game format (handling etc) before they spend all the money on licences, marketing material.

I think EA is the way forward for gaming. The risk of developing a turkey is just becoming too great otherwise. Accountants probably complain about the cost of EA, but at some point you have to ask yourself the question what is it costing to invest all the money in licences, advertising etc only for the game not to sell because people don't like X, when it could have been easily rectified during an EA iteration.

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dirt3joe said:
gfRally said:
dirt3joe said:
Sad to hear this. Normally puts everyone on a downer until the situation is resolved.

Sounds like as Dirt has come too far not to have another release of it sooner or later. But I expect CM will be focussing on F1 in the short term rather than Dirt.

Early access is a good idea. Who knows, I might even buy a PC for it.
I would take EA even if it was a couple of cars at first, I end up playing 1 car all the way through anyhow then switch.  In fact Most EA titles have added licenses slowly, I would guess this is partially due to the success of the product, more cash = more licenses.  
From CM's perspective EA reduces risk. They can check out that people actually like the game format (handling etc) before they spend all the money on licences, marketing material.

I think EA is the way forward for gaming. The risk of developing a turkey is just becoming too great otherwise. Accountants probably complain about the cost of EA, but at some point you have to ask yourself the question what is it costing to invest all the money in licences, advertising etc only for the game not to sell because people don't like X, when it could have been easily rectified during an EA iteration.
On the flipside as I think about this again, this is a multi-platform publisher.  They will be releasing the game for xbox and playstation too, and neither support EA (right now)  Games that come out like Forza series are mostly complete and ready to go, and are demanding the usual $60 cost of newly released console games.  So it could be viewed as unnecessary or that releasing it for the PC would lessen the demand when the console version is released.  

I don't know, there are so many ways to look at this and many variables on marketing and financing it is hard to find the right answer.  Besides we are all 'just gamers' and not running the companies and looking at finances, from their perspective this is a business not play, you know?

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Maybe Codemasters should follow Project Cars' model? They raised millions by pre-selling the game and giving the "investors" input on the development via early access?

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KCSmoke said:
Maybe Codemasters should follow Project Cars' model? They raised millions by pre-selling the game and giving the "investors" input on the development via early access?
Would people be prepared to put money in to a name that's already successful? That already has the funds? I think people would see that as a way for the publisher to make a game for free and wouldn't go down well with a lot of people.

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It's strange that @justbiglee hasn't been around since the news broke, hopefully he isn't one of the team members to be let go :(
Something to cheer us up

A blast from the past

CMR


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doyley101 said:
KCSmoke said:
Maybe Codemasters should follow Project Cars' model? They raised millions by pre-selling the game and giving the "investors" input on the development via early access?
Would people be prepared to put money in to a name that's already successful? That already has the funds? I think people would see that as a way for the publisher to make a game for free and wouldn't go down well with a lot of people.

Well, if they are laying people off...how successful are they? Do they already have the funds they need? Hope so.

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It's strange that @justbiglee hasn't been around since the news broke, hopefully he isn't one of the team members to be let go :(
Something to cheer us up

A blast from the past

CMR


I agree, @justbiglee‌ being a community manager, might not be as valuable as the developers, so we might not hear from him or Codemasters in the forums again. Although I hope I'm wrong :-(

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It's strange that @justbiglee hasn't been around since the news broke, hopefully he isn't one of the team members to be let go :(
Something to cheer us up

A blast from the past

CMR


I agree, @justbiglee‌ being a community manager, might not be as valuable as the developers, so we might not hear from him or Codemasters in the forums again. Although I hope I'm wrong :-(
Doesn't look good if this tweet is related to the layoff? :(

http://twitter.com/justbiglee/status/553620964207243264

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I do not believe that because of the rumours / gossip about the many layoffs will influence a release of a new DiRT game.

Atleast the basic hard kern of the DiRT development team will stay together for sure. ( what I can conclude about the news) What will not influence the quality of the game.

I think its a good thing that there is no release date or anything known yet.

The DiRT team has to do a few steps back, and slow the progress of the new game a little bit,
but as I said before I believe and think that it wont hurt a quality game.
And i think thats the most important thing, a good quality game, instead of a rushed half complete game, what only cause more irritations, by the fans and customers.

We just have to be a little bit more patient guys ;-)

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Morning guys,

Don't really know where to start, being totally honest I don't even know what I'm allowed to say about this whole mess...

I wanna just post up the whole story, you guys deserve to know what's going on but it would come across much more like an angry hate filled rant at the moment. Parts would be taken out of context and it wouldn't do me or the guys effected any favours.

I appreciate your concern over what is happening with me but I'm safe in my job at the moment, as you can imagine I just really wasn't in the mood for anything last week (eating lots of chocolate seemed to be the answer). This is effecting a lot of my friends, people I work closely and the people some of you have met - seeing them have to go through what I went though last time this happened isn't easy.

I know you all want to know how this effects this awesome game we've been promising you and truth is I don't know, it will be a while before I do.

While you guys are free to talk about whatever you like on here, I want to ask as a favour... Can move off the redundancy talk?

Everyone working on the game is effected, either directly or indirectly and we really need you guys to keep us on the straight and narrow, pick us up when we're down just as you always have.

So... Now I'm not confirming that this bit is true, there are some parts of the article that are incorrect I just won't say what including how they wrote "DiRT" (caps lock, little "i" guys come on!!! - most annoying thing about that article)

Let's have a conversation about this bit

"Sources told Eurogamer Codemasters planned to announce the new Dirt soon with a view to an Early Access-style release" - source

We've touched on this before a few times before after @gfRally (I think it was Greg - apologies if not) came up with the idea and the topic came up again recently before this all kicked off so lets finish it. What if this bit was true? What do you honestly think of this? How would you want to see it run from our side if we did do it? What kind of info should be putting out (and where) and how would you want us to talk to you?

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Morning guys,

Don't really know where to start, being totally honest I don't even know what I'm allowed to say about this whole mess...

I wanna just post up the whole story, you guys deserve to know what's going on but it would come across much more like an angry hate filled rant at the moment. Parts would be taken out of context and it wouldn't do me or the guys effected any favours.

I appreciate your concern over what is happening with me but I'm safe in my job at the moment, as you can imagine I just really wasn't in the mood for anything last week (eating lots of chocolate seemed to be the answer). This is effecting a lot of my friends, people I work closely and the people some of you have met - seeing them have to go through what I went though last time this happened isn't easy.

I know you all want to know how this effects this awesome game we've been promising you and truth is I don't know, it will be a while before I do.

While you guys are free to talk about whatever you like on here, I want to ask as a favour... Can move off the redundancy talk?

Everyone working on the game is effected, either directly or indirectly and we really need you guys to keep us on the straight and narrow, pick us up when we're down just as you always have.

So... Now I'm not confirming that this bit is true, there are some parts of the article that are incorrect I just won't say what including how they wrote "DiRT" (caps lock, little "i" guys come on!!! - most annoying thing about that article)

Let's have a conversation about this bit

"Sources told Eurogamer Codemasters planned to announce the new Dirt soon with a view to an Early Access-style release" - source

We've touched on this before a few times before after @gfRally (I think it was Greg - apologies if not) came up with the idea and the topic came up again recently before this all kicked off so lets finish it, what do you honestly think of this? How would you want to see it run from our side if we did do it? What kind of info should be putting out (and where) and how would you want us to talk to you?
Glad your job is safe for the moment Lee and will stop talking about the recent articles going around if you say that most of it was wrong.

Getting back to the early release idea i think it's best just to release a demo on what we can expect in the finished product, what do you think @justbiglee 

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VirtuaIceMan said:
Interesting that someone suggests the car licensing hasn't been done yet; why else would they model "that car" (which we don't know what it is!) without a license?  :p
I daresay this is quite common: if you recall there were cars mentioned in the early previews for DiRT 3 that subsequently didn't make it into the final game due to licensing. 

I hope that isn't the case with "that car" though, as it would be a terrible shame if the rest of you can't experience the fear! :smiley: 

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You know my thoughts about EA @justbiglee‌ I'm all for it. As I said, the only negative may be the back lash from console owners, but then when they do get the finished product, it will have gone through months of tweaking and testing which means they'll get the best game possible.

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So I've been hanging round these forums for around a year, don't post much as I would only be reiterating the post's of others and I'm lazy :)  but seeing as you would like our opinion on early access (or payed beta?)  I'll drop my 2 cents worth in.

First off would it be a free early access with a random selection/first come or would it be payed access? Assuming it would be payed how much would it be?
 Personally I have always joined in the early access and mostly had to pay (or pre order) to get in, I could list all the games and how much it cost for each but that would take far to long, on average it's been around £40-£50 to get my hands on the game and I'm happy to pay that for a sneak peek and help mold the game with constructive feed back.
So I'll list some pros and cons for early access as I see it.

Pros.


1. You get a cash boost in sales.


2. Media attention, gets people taking about your game


3. We break your game faster and in ways you would never think off allowing you to fix it before full release.


4. More feed back from the people who want your game, This could also be in the cons list as some people are... let's say not "nice" :) (I remember the Grid forums once autosport was released)

Cons.


1. Less cash later, If we already have your game we don't need to purchase it a second time (although if it's good I will get it for another platform = more people for me to destroy online :) )


2. Console gamers will cry. My argument to them, Forsa, Granturismo, Destiny...I could go on.


3. People are stupid. Their will always be the people who buy into early access and complain about a buggy, broken, feature light and lack of content game without realising they are not buying a complete game to begin with. You just can't plan for stupid.


4. Point 3 might also lead to a bad first impression of your game by a small minority.

So that's 4 for and 4 against, I think I have tried to be objective and personally if you did early access I would buy into it and be very happy.
That said... I would also be a little deflated at the full release as I would know a lot of the surprises already, but I'm sure (like accetto corsa) you could hold some things back to surprise us with or add more content later as DLC? but that's a whole other can of worms...

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I think it depends on what the purpose of Early Access is. If it's to test the game and get feedback then that's great, do a limited demo to test whatever features make up the whole game (e.g. single player rally, multiplayer rallycross for example).

If it's like Assetto Corsa or Project CARS, then by the time the game's released, any Early Access people will have played most of the content, so there would be less excitement to progress through whatever championship/career mode you have in mind, there would be less surprises to unlock/discover.

Of course if there's no defined career mode (which would be a first in Codemasters land!) then perhaps Early Access could be good to just keep dropping in content as the game develops, that way you can get more people buying into it once their favourite car has been added, etc.

Assetto Corsa seem to have set a certain point for their 1.0 release, then are making a Dream Pack add on with 10 desirable cars and Nordschleife, which seems fair as DLC. I'd shy away from having the base game then every single car/track as DLC (aka the RaceRoom Experience approach) as it's not so fun, and not traditional for Codemasters either, I hope you don't go that way (let alone the matchmaking problems you've had in previous games when people don't have the same content).

I think Richard Burns Rally and Assetto Corsa are good examples though of games which were released then community supported (like rFactor). If you could release tools for people to add content themselves, whilst focussing on the bits you're good at like AI and graphics, then this whole thing could take off.

I think most people out there though would like to see an end to the so-called "dudebro" US trendy themed approach of the games though. More realism would be great!

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I hate to say this, but I would pay a good $$ for it.   I have seen some EA games give tiered access.  i.e. you pay $40 for the base EA that would get you in at some point in the process.  If you pay $60 (or a little more) you will get a couple of exclusive liveries and a particular car before the release.  Or you may buy in, with an announcement of the game, with release date for EA set in the future, with some sort of date.  I don't know, if you pay a little more you have an incentive to do so.

Hey can we just send $$ for a teaser???? :smile:  

Something I sorta see with EA games, is that it forces the publisher to continually update the game and 'live' off of DLC for a lot longer after the initial release.  The 1.0 version of the game seems to end up at the point that the game is now free of most bugs, a core set of cars are there.  But it is announced that more will be available, hopefully with hey we have licensed the Peugeot brand it will be available a few weeks after 1.0 for some sort of DLC.  DLC cost will depend on if its a per brand pack, track, or a collection of related liveries + cars + rally events.

Anyhow it just keeps the game alive for a lot longer since 1.0 will be out the door as a core/starting point with all the licensing pieces falling into place as income allows.  

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Assetto Corsa seem to have set a certain point for their 1.0 release, then are making a Dream Pack add on with 10 desirable cars and Nordschleife, which seems fair as DLC. I'd shy away from having the base game then every single car/track as DLC (aka the RaceRoom Experience approach) as it's not so fun, and not traditional for Codemasters either, I hope you don't go that way (let alone the matchmaking problems you've had in previous games when people don't have the same content).

I think Richard Burns Rally and Assetto Corsa are good examples though of games which were released then community supported (like rFactor). If you could release tools for people to add content themselves, whilst focussing on the bits you're good at like AI and graphics, then this whole thing could take off.

I think most people out there though would like to see an end to the so-called "dudebro" US trendy themed approach of the games though. More realism would be great!
Dude, what do you mean? Come on bro give us US guys a break, lol. 

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