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PJTierney

 

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KickUp said:
They are our own leaderboards now. We aren't using Sony or Microsoft leaderboards so we'll be able to police them ourselves. 

Wait, you were using Sony/Microsoft leaderboards on the PC version? o.O AFAIK the console versions are cheat free due to... well, being consoles. It's the PC side that has cheating issues.

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KickUp said:
They are our own leaderboards now. We aren't using Sony or Microsoft leaderboards so we'll be able to police them ourselves. 


Wait, you were using Sony/Microsoft leaderboards on the PC version? o.O AFAIK the console versions are cheat free due to... well, being consoles. It's the PC side that has cheating issues.


It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)

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@KickUp Will we be able to change the color of our numbers? In GRID Autosport you could only have your number in black and on dark liveries it dissapeared

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Didzis said:

@KickUp Will we be able to change the color of our numbers? In GRID Autosport you could only have your number in black and on dark liveries it dissapeared


Yes. 

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Kenny1962 said:


Will there be jumps like in Finland in the Michigan and Wales ,Australia, Sweden stages.
Kenny.




Nothing that extreme, that said I've seen some pretty amazing flat out straights over big crests that do give significant air. 

Also worth noting that our cars deal with being airborne a lot better now. 

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KickUp said:





Kenny1962 said:



Will there be jumps like in Finland in the Michigan and Wales ,Australia, Sweden stages.
Kenny.






Nothing that extreme, that said I've seen some pretty amazing flat out straights over big crests that do give significant air. 

Also worth noting that our cars deal with being airborne a lot better now. 


Sounds lovely. I prefer big high speed crests that lifts the car juuuuuust enough to hear the rpm raise, over huge bouncy finish jumps.

;)

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KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)

And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?

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yes pc is rife with cheats. to the point i almost stopped playing the game or pushed for the top times because you know some hacktard has just done a 1 minute time. at the moment on dirt rally id say on many course majority of top ten times are hackers. the worst thing is that some of them have been around since dirt rally launch i know i submitted many screenshots like others to get them gone.

also the cheats used arent new.some are over a year old and working.

what is going to be the difference in Dirt 4 for PC ? for people like me who push for those top times its almost everything.its a small amount who play for it so its understood its not a big percentage but it is very important.

its all good policing the tables but going by Dirt rally it wasnt policed good enough.Darren i know you tried hard so its not a knock at you but when you put in hundreds of hrs to get those times sometimes 1000s of hrs and guys are buying 2 quid hacks to beat them its a joke .this needs to be stopped for Dirt 4 or grasped enough so its not worth doing.

Dirt rally could also do with a clean up to get them gone on pc.consoles arent really effected in the same way.

also hand out Vac bans.for cheating.

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KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)


And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?


All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  

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and thus any point in me wanting to play it.i know its a lot of effort for a small percentage but its a rally / racing game. the objective is to go as fast as possible in the shortest time.

if there is no value in doing so then why play it ?

times in racing / rally are massive in importance. it may not be to business men but to the gamers that buy and play it is.dont want to go negative about anything you make the best car games i enjoy them.the anticheat side though is slipping.its not upto where it should be.

the cheats being used are basic.they are the same cheats used for years since dirt 2/dirt 3/dirt rally.

the game cant step into any serious leagues or esl kind of setting because of that alone.that is massive especially for how racing games are venturing into this area.its the next big thing for esports.

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dgeesi0 said:

and thus any point in me wanting to play it.i know its a lot of effort for a small percentage but its a rally / racing game. the objective is to go as fast as possible in the shortest time.

if there is no value in doing so then why play it ?

times in racing / rally are massive in importance. it may not be to business men but to the gamers that buy and play it is.dont want to go negative about anything you make the best car games i enjoy them.the anticheat side though is slipping.its not upto where it should be.

the cheats being used are basic.they are the same cheats used for years since dirt 2/dirt 3/dirt rally.

the game cant step into any serious leagues or esl kind of setting because of that alone.that is massive especially for how racing games are venturing into this area.its the next big thing for esports.


You're missing the point of what a trainer is. The 'old' cheats you are talking of are nothing that any developer can realisticly detect via software. Those trainer-software emulates inputs into periphirals like keyboard and wheels. From the viewpoint of the game it has no way to tell apart if that throttle signal is actually coming from a pedal or is just generated by another program. Only defense against this is to manually or semi-automatically check if some times are way beyond what's humanly possible.
Even with the most effort and money imaginable this is a problem that can not be fixed by software unless you write a whole new operating system.
Because, a game, as any other program, is controlled by the OS and has no power over other programs running simultaneously.

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KickUp said:





KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)



And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?




All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  


I appreciate your open and honest answer!

Would it be possible to get some footage of the replay system?

Just out of curiosity: how did you get the replay system to work with every track generated with YourStage? 

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KickUp said:



kop9000 said:







dwkGravey said:





Your Stage is the name of the track generator. 






And there are tracks that were created manually without using a generator? Or will there always be generated tracks in all game modes that are in the game?






Only Rally will use generated tracks. 


understandably. Thank you

I have one more question

Will there be generated small right or left fields when you are driving along the road in the forest?

And I beg to ask @KickUp please do so that you can make the length of the route more than 100 or 200 km.

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dgeesi0 said:

yes pc is rife with cheats. to the point i almost stopped playing the game or pushed for the top times because you know some hacktard has just done a 1 minute time. at the moment on dirt rally id say on many course majority of top ten times are hackers. the worst thing is that some of them have been around since dirt rally launch i know i submitted many screenshots like others to get them gone.

also the cheats used arent new.some are over a year old and working.

what is going to be the difference in Dirt 4 for PC ? for people like me who push for those top times its almost everything.its a small amount who play for it so its understood its not a big percentage but it is very important.

its all good policing the tables but going by Dirt rally it wasnt policed good enough.Darren i know you tried hard so its not a knock at you but when you put in hundreds of hrs to get those times sometimes 1000s of hrs and guys are buying 2 quid hacks to beat them its a joke .this needs to be stopped for Dirt 4 or grasped enough so its not worth doing.

Dirt rally could also do with a clean up to get them gone on pc.consoles arent really effected in the same way.

also hand out Vac bans.for cheating.


Iv made a suggestion that could be implemented fairly cost-effectively & approach the issue somewhat satisfactorily.

I hope someone was listening for all our sakes

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SkyRex said:



dgeesi0 said:


and thus any point in me wanting to play it.i know its a lot of effort for a small percentage but its a rally / racing game. the objective is to go as fast as possible in the shortest time.

if there is no value in doing so then why play it ?

times in racing / rally are massive in importance. it may not be to business men but to the gamers that buy and play it is.dont want to go negative about anything you make the best car games i enjoy them.the anticheat side though is slipping.its not upto where it should be.

the cheats being used are basic.they are the same cheats used for years since dirt 2/dirt 3/dirt rally.

the game cant step into any serious leagues or esl kind of setting because of that alone.that is massive especially for how racing games are venturing into this area.its the next big thing for esports.




You're missing the point of what a trainer is. The 'old' cheats you are talking of are nothing that any developer can realisticly detect via software. Those trainer-software emulates inputs into periphirals like keyboard and wheels. From the viewpoint of the game it has no way to tell apart if that throttle signal is actually coming from a pedal or is just generated by another program. Only defense against this is to manually or semi-automatically check if some times are way beyond what's humanly possible.
Even with the most effort and money imaginable this is a problem that can not be fixed by software unless you write a whole new operating system.
Because, a game, as any other program, is controlled by the OS and has no power over other programs running simultaneously.


if you can make it you can brake it. sorry i dont accept they cant stop it. also im not new to anticheat software was a pb admin for years.

its not hard to grab the trainers see whats being done and how they doing it.if we honest it comes down to money with anticheats and is it worth dealing with.i get that.but when its a outdated £2 cheat that unravels a giant studios effort you do have to ask how much effort is being put into stopping it ?

times to many dont matter so its a minor on the whole scheme of things and thats probably why its not tackled.why would you waste numerous professionals working on something with no real value or profit to be earned from it.

thing is imagine doing a World record run almost flawless took many hrs to get right you check leaderboard guy at top is 30 plus seconds faster than any other top person in the game but cause you cant prove it they arent removed.its obvious.on some tracks there is guys on some tracks with 1 minute times !

it could be fixed . it could be tigher.the anticheat needs to be better.no dirt games can become ESL titles on pc without it.people just dont understand how big competitve racing is becoming.or basically it will happen but on consoles and avoid pc.

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the fact that people are cheating the leaderboard is just disheartning, seeing as its about the only thing worth doing in dirt rally now apart from racing personal best times, i hadnt really looked into it at all but watching somebody using a gravity cheat to get better traction just sucks, i did think it was odd when i looked at crest and people just pull away really quick, seemed like alot of bullshit to me

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I wonder what those cheaters get out of it. Using cheats like that doesn't make rallying more fun, does it? What's the point? Just to annoy others or something? People who use cheats are miserable little sods that are a burden to everybody in their lives and the whole society. Worthless!

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I wonder what those cheaters get out of it. Using cheats like that doesn't make rallying more fun, does it? What's the point? Just to annoy others or something? People who use cheats are miserable little sods that are a burden to everybody in their lives and the whole society. Worthless!



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KickUp said:


KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)


And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?



All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  



@kickup Will it be easier to prove which times are fake now that there are Ghost Cars? I know its not as good as a full replay but I imagine it would make it easier to see something dodgy.

I would really like to see the Ghost Cars of some of the times that seem out of this world compared to my best effort, some would be legit I know, as Im not super fast. But I think some of the ones that are like a minute or so quicker than a time I just spent half an hour or more re-trying to get, might be fake and being able to select their Ghost Car and race against it might help me work out if the top times Im competing against are just cheaters, and I can relax a little knowing Im not that slow ;)

The thing I would really like to see one day is that Dirt will use a new replay system like Richard Burns, where the replays are not recordings but just small files with only the parametres of your inputs  that the game actually uses to recreate the replay on your system. Then theoretically you could have a "replay" uploaded next to every time on the leaderboard that you can click on and see for youself. This for me would be the most awesome addition in making the game more interesting and interactive for the community and also lots of fun to use. If such a system existed then wouldnt the bonus be that there would be evidence of the cheaters that everyone and Codies themselves could see? Surely that would make things easier?

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Rygar86 said:

KickUp said:




KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)


And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?



All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  




@kickup Will it be easier to prove which times are fake now that there are Ghost Cars? I know its not as good as a full replay but I imagine it would make it easier to see something dodgy.

I would really like to see the Ghost Cars of some of the times that seem out of this world compared to my best effort, some would be legit I know, as Im not super fast. But I think some of the ones that are like a minute or so quicker than a time I just spent half an hour or more re-trying to get, might be fake and being able to select their Ghost Car and race against it might help me work out if the top times Im competing against are just cheaters, and I can relax a little knowing Im not that slow ;)

The thing I would really like to see one day is that Dirt will use a new replay system like Richard Burns, where the replays are not recordings but just small files with only parametres of your run that the game actually uses to recreate the run on your system. Then theoretically you could have a replay next to every time on the leaderboard that you can click on and see for youself. This for me would be the most awesome addition in making the game more interesting and interactive for the community and also lots of fun to use. If such a system existed then wouldnt the bonus be that there would be evidence of the cheaters that everyone and Codies themselves could see? Surely that would make things easier?



It would not make that much of a difference but it would involve a complete rewrite of the replay system which is obviously very costly. 

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dgeesi0 said:



SkyRex said:





dgeesi0 said:



and thus any point in me wanting to play it.i know its a lot of effort for a small percentage but its a rally / racing game. the objective is to go as fast as possible in the shortest time.

if there is no value in doing so then why play it ?

times in racing / rally are massive in importance. it may not be to business men but to the gamers that buy and play it is.dont want to go negative about anything you make the best car games i enjoy them.the anticheat side though is slipping.its not upto where it should be.

the cheats being used are basic.they are the same cheats used for years since dirt 2/dirt 3/dirt rally.

the game cant step into any serious leagues or esl kind of setting because of that alone.that is massive especially for how racing games are venturing into this area.its the next big thing for esports.






You're missing the point of what a trainer is. The 'old' cheats you are talking of are nothing that any developer can realisticly detect via software. Those trainer-software emulates inputs into periphirals like keyboard and wheels. From the viewpoint of the game it has no way to tell apart if that throttle signal is actually coming from a pedal or is just generated by another program. Only defense against this is to manually or semi-automatically check if some times are way beyond what's humanly possible.
Even with the most effort and money imaginable this is a problem that can not be fixed by software unless you write a whole new operating system.
Because, a game, as any other program, is controlled by the OS and has no power over other programs running simultaneously.




if you can make it you can brake it. sorry i dont accept they cant stop it. also im not new to anticheat software was a pb admin for years.

its not hard to grab the trainers see whats being done and how they doing it.if we honest it comes down to money with anticheats and is it worth dealing with.i get that.but when its a outdated £2 cheat that unravels a giant studios effort you do have to ask how much effort is being put into stopping it ?

times to many dont matter so its a minor on the whole scheme of things and thats probably why its not tackled.why would you waste numerous professionals working on something with no real value or profit to be earned from it.

thing is imagine doing a World record run almost flawless took many hrs to get right you check leaderboard guy at top is 30 plus seconds faster than any other top person in the game but cause you cant prove it they arent removed.its obvious.on some tracks there is guys on some tracks with 1 minute times !

it could be fixed . it could be tigher.the anticheat needs to be better.no dirt games can become ESL titles on pc without it.people just dont understand how big competitve racing is becoming.or basically it will happen but on consoles and avoid pc.


Do you remember on DiRT Rally when we said we were going to be implementing Vac banning? Well we spent about two months getting everything in place to do it and Steam changed their policy on the day we announced it, we had no warning and it unravelled everything we had done. It meant that two months of work went down the drain and we were unable to report trainers in the way Steam had originally asked us to. That was a fun day explaining that to the business. 

Its not as simple as you may think it is and while I understand your frustration we have taken steps to improve things in DiRT 4. Part of the issue with using Steam, MS or Sony leaderboards was that we couldn't wipe individual times, using our own leaderboards we can.

That said I'm not going to answer you anymore on this issue. You want me to promise things that I'm not in a position to do and I've said all I can say. 

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On PC cheaters ALWAYS finds a way. Anti cheats are always a step behind.

If you truly care so much about this issue the only way to go is console.

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Paul, am i reading correctly that you're using your own leader boards, even on PC?


yes, that is correct. 

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