Jump to content

DiRTy Gossip about DIRT Rally Games

PJTierney

 

Message added by PJTierney

Recommended Posts

Why don't dg and Ryu get together and prototype a proof of concept? Development is always "not that hard" on this side of the keyboard. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



Rygar86 said:


KickUp said:


KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)

And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?


All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  


@kickup Will it be easier to prove which times are fake now that there are Ghost Cars? I know its not as good as a full replay but I imagine it would make it easier to see something dodgy.

I would really like to see the Ghost Cars of some of the times that seem out of this world compared to my best effort, some would be legit I know, as Im not super fast. But I think some of the ones that are like a minute or so quicker than a time I just spent half an hour or more re-trying to get, might be fake and being able to select their Ghost Car and race against it might help me work out if the top times Im competing against are just cheaters, and I can relax a little knowing Im not that slow ;)

The thing I would really like to see one day is that Dirt will use a new replay system like Richard Burns, where the replays are not recordings but just small files with only parametres of your run that the game actually uses to recreate the run on your system. Then theoretically you could have a replay next to every time on the leaderboard that you can click on and see for youself. This for me would be the most awesome addition in making the game more interesting and interactive for the community and also lots of fun to use. If such a system existed then wouldnt the bonus be that there would be evidence of the cheaters that everyone and Codies themselves could see? Surely that would make things easier?



It would not make that much of a difference but it would involve a complete rewrite of the replay system which is obviously very costly. 


Okay thanks, so not much of a difference then. I suppose the new Gost Cars wont help much either in this regard. But Im still really gratefull they will be in Dirt 4 and that I can challenge times in this way. For me it will be really fun to do and also interesting to see other peoples driving, especially the cheaters.

Im also really happy to hear that Codies will have total control of the leaderboards, this has to be a major step forward in dealing with cheats (as well as offering other advantages) and Im really glad you guys have done this, so thanks  :) I know it will make a difference.

In regards to changing the replay system in the way I mentioned, I appreciate your point on the costliness of implementing such a thing. But can I ask, hypothetically, in a perfect world, is it a sytem you would prefer over the cuurent one, because of the benifits it would offer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rygar86 said:



KickUp said:





Rygar86 said:



KickUp said:




KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)


And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?



All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  



@kickup Will it be easier to prove which times are fake now that there are Ghost Cars? I know its not as good as a full replay but I imagine it would make it easier to see something dodgy.

I would really like to see the Ghost Cars of some of the times that seem out of this world compared to my best effort, some would be legit I know, as Im not super fast. But I think some of the ones that are like a minute or so quicker than a time I just spent half an hour or more re-trying to get, might be fake and being able to select their Ghost Car and race against it might help me work out if the top times Im competing against are just cheaters, and I can relax a little knowing Im not that slow ;)

The thing I would really like to see one day is that Dirt will use a new replay system like Richard Burns, where the replays are not recordings but just small files with only parametres of your run that the game actually uses to recreate the run on your system. Then theoretically you could have a replay next to every time on the leaderboard that you can click on and see for youself. This for me would be the most awesome addition in making the game more interesting and interactive for the community and also lots of fun to use. If such a system existed then wouldnt the bonus be that there would be evidence of the cheaters that everyone and Codies themselves could see? Surely that would make things easier?





It would not make that much of a difference but it would involve a complete rewrite of the replay system which is obviously very costly. 




Okay thanks, so not much of a difference then. I suppose the new Gost Cars wont help much either in this regard. But Im still really gratefull they will be in Dirt 4 and that I can challenge times in this way. For me it will be really fun to do and also interesting to see other peoples driving, especially the cheaters.

Im also really happy to hear that Codies will have total control of the leaderboards, this has to be a major step forward in dealing with cheats (as well as offering other advantages) and Im really glad you guys have done this, so thanks  :) I know it will make a difference.

In regards to changing the replay system in the way I mentioned, I appreciate your point on the costliness of implementing such a thing. But can I ask, hypothetically, in a perfect world, is it a sytem you would prefer over the cuurent one, because of the benifits it would offer?


I think our replay system would benefit from a big overhaul. We've made improvements to it so that it works better but there are still limitations that it would be good to fix. It's one for the future and it will need to go hand in hand with the other requests that we have for better control over the replays, photo mode, etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, how much € you need to add any of the GC8 based Impreza WRC's? I might start a Kickstarter. I know there is heaps of us out there that would contribute. @KickUp

 :# 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



Rygar86 said:

KickUp said:

Rygar86 said:

KickUp said:


KickUp said:
It's Steam leaderboards on the PC version.  ;)

And that's specifically what dg meant. There's no cheating of the sorts on consoles, it's the PC side that is full of old cheats and the game itself still doesn't block the trainers themselves.

So @KickUp the question is as simple as this. Will there be something done this time that will make an actual difference in the cheat fighting department or is it the same old avoiding answers that at the end of the day result in there being effectively nothing done (aka no noticeable difference)?


All times are now going through our leaderboards so we can police them better (removing times that are proven to use trainers). Getting the proof is the hard part. 

As for me avoiding answering questions. I answer questions as openly and honestly as I can, however I am not in charge of the money or the business policies of Codemasters and so it is hard for me to make any concise promises about how we are going to act.
We have managed to get the business to support our anti cheat systems more than ever before but sadly that will only keep us a small step ahead of those that feel the need to cheat our systems and I suspect it won't be enough to satisfy you. 

I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  


@kickup Will it be easier to prove which times are fake now that there are Ghost Cars? I know its not as good as a full replay but I imagine it would make it easier to see something dodgy.

I would really like to see the Ghost Cars of some of the times that seem out of this world compared to my best effort, some would be legit I know, as Im not super fast. But I think some of the ones that are like a minute or so quicker than a time I just spent half an hour or more re-trying to get, might be fake and being able to select their Ghost Car and race against it might help me work out if the top times Im competing against are just cheaters, and I can relax a little knowing Im not that slow ;)

The thing I would really like to see one day is that Dirt will use a new replay system like Richard Burns, where the replays are not recordings but just small files with only parametres of your run that the game actually uses to recreate the run on your system. Then theoretically you could have a replay next to every time on the leaderboard that you can click on and see for youself. This for me would be the most awesome addition in making the game more interesting and interactive for the community and also lots of fun to use. If such a system existed then wouldnt the bonus be that there would be evidence of the cheaters that everyone and Codies themselves could see? Surely that would make things easier?

It would not make that much of a difference but it would involve a complete rewrite of the replay system which is obviously very costly. 

Okay thanks, so not much of a difference then. I suppose the new Gost Cars wont help much either in this regard. But Im still really gratefull they will be in Dirt 4 and that I can challenge times in this way. For me it will be really fun to do and also interesting to see other peoples driving, especially the cheaters.

Im also really happy to hear that Codies will have total control of the leaderboards, this has to be a major step forward in dealing with cheats (as well as offering other advantages) and Im really glad you guys have done this, so thanks  :) I know it will make a difference.

In regards to changing the replay system in the way I mentioned, I appreciate your point on the costliness of implementing such a thing. But can I ask, hypothetically, in a perfect world, is it a sytem you would prefer over the cuurent one, because of the benifits it would offer?



I think our replay system would benefit from a big overhaul. We've made improvements to it so that it works better but there are still limitations that it would be good to fix. It's one for the future and it will need to go hand in hand with the other requests that we have for better control over the replays, photo mode, etc


Thanks for your reply, Im glad to hear that you have this point of view, even though it will take a big overhaul. I would love to see these things one day and I believe that one day I will, because you guys are awesome developers and its just going to be a matter time.

In the meantime, thankyou for listening to people and making the many changes that we are seeing in the upcoming Dirt 4, including the replays. I know its going to make a big difference to be able to select camera angles properly this time and if Im honest that should be enough to keep me happy until more can be done.

 Looking forward to playing Dirt 4 so much right now and I hope you guys are able to stay (somewhat) sane as the big day approaches and get everthing you need/want to get done. Im sure the end result will prove to be more than worth the wait and all your effort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bogani said:

If you truly care so much about this issue the only way to go is console.


Like I did...  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dwkGravey said:

Why don't dg and Ryu get together and prototype a proof of concept? Development is always "not that hard" on this side of the keyboard. :lol:

so easy to mock when all we want is a legit rally leaderboard.some of us go for those times its 90 percent of why we play it so much.

" if you truly care so much about this issue the only way to go is console " nope.thats just avoiding the issue at hand.also making playing experience worse because someone else cheats and the problem isnt being dealt with.

@KickUp that is shit about the vac banning. i can imagine trying to get the go ahead to do so then it backfiring like that must of been frustrating.didnt want to seem like a dick about this but when you launch dirt see on one track alone over 30 cheaters for one car set with unbeatable times what should i say ? its fine.

i have sent hundreds of pics to darren with dodgy times.most are still up or playing.there is about ten people in dirt rally who if try hard know what rough legit times can be achieved for each course.they are often within seconds of each other or even hundreds of a second.so when they 20/30 a minute plus just remove them.they arent removed.the players arent banned.

this is a discussion about dirt 4 and wanted to know if its better why ? because with your stage how many varations will there be ? millions its just gonna make policing even harder than what it is now. we have a small selection in dirt rally yet that cant be policed .


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


KickUp said:
They are our own leaderboards now. We aren't using Sony or Microsoft leaderboards so we'll be able to police them ourselves. 


AFAIK the console versions are cheat free due to... well, being consoles. It's the PC side that has cheating issues.


Oh, you'd be surprised how many cheat times are on PS4 leaderboards that weren't deleted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



tbtstt said:


Just thought of another minor question to bother @KickUp with: have the car models for the returning rallycross Supercars been tweaked at all, or are they identical in appearance (apart from liveries) to DiRT Rally? 




Some have some havent. We haven't been able to do a lot of the changes that you guys will have wanted :(


The curse of licensing again @KickUp? Well ultimately it is only going to be a handful of us who are going to be looking at certain details and, new or original model, I still can't wait to grips with the expanded rallycross content!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites






KickUp said:
They are our own leaderboards now. We aren't using Sony or Microsoft leaderboards so we'll be able to police them ourselves. 



AFAIK the console versions are cheat free due to... well, being consoles. It's the PC side that has cheating issues.




Oh, you'd be surprised how many cheat times are on PS4 leaderboards that weren't deleted.


Really? How does that work? Cutting is the only thing I can think of?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dgeesi0 said:



dwkGravey said:


Why don't dg and Ryu get together and prototype a proof of concept? Development is always "not that hard" on this side of the keyboard. :lol:


so easy to mock when all we want is a legit rally leaderboard.some of us go for those times its 90 percent of why we play it so much.

" if you truly care so much about this issue the only way to go is console " nope.thats just avoiding the issue at hand.also making playing experience worse because someone else cheats and the problem isnt being dealt with.

@KickUp that is **** about the vac banning. i can imagine trying to get the go ahead to do so then it backfiring like that must of been frustrating.didnt want to seem like a **** about this but when you launch dirt see on one track alone over 30 cheaters for one car set with unbeatable times what should i say ? its fine.

i have sent hundreds of pics to darren with dodgy times.most are still up or playing.there is about ten people in dirt rally who if try hard know what rough legit times can be achieved for each course.they are often within seconds of each other or even hundreds of a second.so when they 20/30 a minute plus just remove them.they arent removed.the players arent banned.

this is a discussion about dirt 4 and wanted to know if its better why ? because with your stage how many varations will there be ? millions its just gonna make policing even harder than what it is now. we have a small selection in dirt rally yet that cant be policed .



At the end of the day man, we've been told they'll have control over the leaderboards - and we can only hope that for the majority of our time playing Dirt 4 they keep them clean. End of, to be honest.
In reality, I can't see the time required to manually police leaderboards being justified for too long. It's a bit crappy - but is ignoring those 30 second times really that hard? You know those 10 people you mention, and the community knows who is truly capable of top times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to say I have never seen a developer answering every question with such honesty as @KickUp. I have found many questions that I had on DiRT 4 answered here even before I asked, even the ones that didn't have the answer I wanted to see. Well done, you made me pre-order DiRT 4 with no shred of doubt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sub 1 minute times on stages should automatically be binned and never appear on the leaderboards at all as they are impossible. Maybe Codies could implement certain parameters that have to be met to even appear on the leaderboard at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For those who think cheating is impossible on consoles...you're wrong. It is, it's being done for a long time now.
I won't be linking anything but a quick websearch will yell you a lot of working results.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bogani said:

Sub 1 minute times on stages should automatically be binned and never appear on the leaderboards at all as they are impossible. Maybe Codies could implement certain parameters that have to be met to even appear on the leaderboard at all?


We do that on our own leaderboards but we can't on the platform holders. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



bogani said:


Sub 1 minute times on stages should automatically be binned and never appear on the leaderboards at all as they are impossible. Maybe Codies could implement certain parameters that have to be met to even appear on the leaderboard at all?




We do that on our own leaderboards but we can't on the platform holders. 


So reassuming:
1. Your own leaderboards - cross platform.
2. You'll implement an automatic filter-out system which will ban users who had stage times quicker than X:Y:Z
3. Leaderboards will be moderized manually anyway (eg. after viewing a player report)

Did I missed something? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

versedi said:



KickUp said:





bogani said:



Sub 1 minute times on stages should automatically be binned and never appear on the leaderboards at all as they are impossible. Maybe Codies could implement certain parameters that have to be met to even appear on the leaderboard at all?






We do that on our own leaderboards but we can't on the platform holders. 




So reassuming:
1. Your own leaderboards - cross platform.
2. You'll implement an automatic filter-out system which will ban users who had stage times quicker than X:Y:Z
3. Leaderboards will be moderized manually anyway (eg. after viewing a player report)

Did I missed something? :)


2. We filter them out but we don't auto ban. That is managed on a case by case basis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



versedi said:





KickUp said:







bogani said:




Sub 1 minute times on stages should automatically be binned and never appear on the leaderboards at all as they are impossible. Maybe Codies could implement certain parameters that have to be met to even appear on the leaderboard at all?








We do that on our own leaderboards but we can't on the platform holders. 






So reassuming:
1. Your own leaderboards - cross platform.
2. You'll implement an automatic filter-out system which will ban users who had stage times quicker than X:Y:Z
3. Leaderboards will be moderized manually anyway (eg. after viewing a player report)

Did I missed something? :)




2. We filter them out but we don't auto ban. That is managed on a case by case basis. 


Sounds reasoneable. Freak thing can always occur I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@KickUp are the leaderboards  still going to have the same filters- Nationality, Assist and Controller?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dwkGravey said:

Why don't dg and Ryu get together and prototype a proof of concept? Development is always "not that hard" on this side of the keyboard. :lol:

I never said it's not that hard. It definitely is a difficult thing that consumes a lot of resources, especially so for racing games. What I don't like is when there are being given avoiding answers while nothing is being done.
If there is a noticeable difference, that's already great. At least I know something is being done.
KickUp said:
Do you remember on DiRT Rally when we said we were going to be implementing Vac banning? Well we spent about two months getting everything in place to do it and Steam changed their policy on the day we announced it, we had no warning and it unravelled everything we had done. It meant that two months of work went down the drain and we were unable to report trainers in the way Steam had originally asked us to. That was a fun day explaining that to the business. 

Its not as simple as you may think it is and while I understand your frustration we have taken steps to improve things in DiRT 4. Part of the issue with using Steam, MS or Sony leaderboards was that we couldn't wipe individual times, using our own leaderboards we can.

And that is an answer I truly appreciate. No BS, just straight into the business :D
KickUp said:
I guess if that is not to your liking one more radical solution and one that is considerably easier for us to implement is to simply remove leaderboards entirely from our games.  
I'm cool with that. Not a fan of leaderboards anyway. Takes people away from racing and puts them into "hot lapping". I'm all in for ladders and competition based on actual racing, rather than who can get the closest to the perfect run. But even for that you need anti-cheat, so that people can't cheat in the actual race.
KickUp said:
It would not make that much of a difference but it would involve a complete rewrite of the replay system which is obviously very costly. 

Doesn't CREST already work in a similar fashion? From what I can tell it's a recreation of the run from the telemetry data, which is essentially what the replays in other games are and why they take little to no space.
I'm not saying it won't be costly and what not, just that you theoretically already have some of the groundwork done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I remember cheats on the Xbox 360 leaderboards in dirt 2. And I've seen cheats on dirt rally on Xbox one too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Car setup is looking really nice now!
Also the dark GUI really fits my taste - I prefer dark themes in everything that I use :)

The suspension animation looks awesome in karts, looking forward to throw them around in the DF area as well!

Most of the gameplays we see are recorded on PS4, is there any particular reason for that @KickUp ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello.
maybe someone can answer. Generating a stage with Your Stage you can choose a weather conditions for that stage. Will weather be fixed to that stage or can you change it later?
Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×