Jump to content

DiRTy Gossip about DIRT Rally Games

PJTierney

 

Message added by PJTierney

Recommended Posts


MaXyMsrpl said:

"....It's sa same like stupid limitation in number of setup slots. Even if computers offer potentially unlimited number of stored setups, they made 10 slots and don't want to change that for some reasons...."


Can anyone confirm this? Are we still only getting 10 Setup slots in D4? I was really hoping they would increase this!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



Rygar86 said:







MaXyMsrpl said:

"....It's sa same like stupid limitation in number of setup slots. Even if computers offer potentially unlimited number of stored setups, they made 10 slots and don't want to change that for some reasons...."








Can anyone confirm this? Are we still only getting 10 Setup slots in D4? I was really hoping they would increase this!!






Just to make it clear. I pointed to DR limitation as example of "technically unjustified" approach. I don't know D4 abilities in this area. But very similar limitation has been already confirmed regarding number 'your stage' variations to be stored.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




dgeesi0 said:


well the mod we are talking about is actually a great one couple it with semtin which is a really tight car width road on asphalt the way the car moves over bumps and uneven ground is close to reality.one thing dirt misses is when you jump or go over uneven ground it feels flat . on the mod you can feel both sides of the car reacting through the steering.

this is the track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYARYzYiT6E

while the graphics are bad the feel is great. im hoping Dirt 4 has that feel on the asphalt .

also the width of the track really adds to rally.this really needs to be addressed as it gives a better perspective to speed and danger when its tight.





The Semetin stage in AC is a carbon copy of the Semetin stage created for RSRBR and is an exact recreation of the Semetin stage that was used in the 2009 Barum Rally Zlín. I've driven it on both titles in the past and somehow I liked it more in RSRBR with an NGP car.


As far as I know Semetin (and a lot of other tracks) was initially made for RBR-Czech mod. RSRBR got it later. There are other RBR mods apart from RSRBR, including Italian RBR-World, where you get time penalty for being late for a stage/service area, as well as for getting there too early!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MaXyMsrpl said:
Sorry, but what your statement is based on? Because it cannot be the knowledge. How do you think various titles can handle open worlds? You have not to render whole map to show only a small part. Also, there are techniques called 'streaming' which allows to load objects on the fly... 
Next, single objects in DR as well as D4 are not unique. These are re-used multiple times to build the map. So this is only a question of repeating stuff.


You do realise that the feature that allows streaming of the objects has to be implemented in the game engine? Just so you know, not a single game released by Codemasters today has had that. All of them had to first load the map before you could play. Adding such a thing to an existing already limited engine is probably not only time consuming but also completely pointless.

Also, just because the objects are repeated doesn't mean they don't have any impact on resources. DirectX11 has a very steep perfomance curve drop in terms of the drew calls at the same time. Once you pass a certain point it just tanks down. If you have to draw the same object thousand times... you still have to draw it a thousand times. The fact remains and with it the performance drop.

That's one of the reasons why I would prefer if DiRT 4 was released in 2018 or even 2019. Actual new engine, without all this limitation and a lot more stuff implemented that they couldn't do for DiRT 4. Guys from Evolution studios are definitely bringing some incredible knowledge, which means that in few years time there will be some amazing stuff out there. Till then though... just more of pretty much the same even if a lot of work has been put into that change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At first I'm arguing against '1 fps' statement which suggests that stage length is constrained by power of gaming computer rather than software (the game). Streaming is one of possibilities which proves what I'm saying. And yes, I know developing streaming based engine is not cheap (dev resources-wise). But there are other possibilities (read below)
At second: you don't have to draw all (ie 1000 the same objects) if those are invisible (culled), far away (LODded) etc. Also drawing those is not such costly if you can save memory related drawback (use shared/multidim textures etc). At the end DR is addressing the same issue all the time. A player can see only part of a map, while whole map sit in memory.
At third: being have 15km stage, we could had easily as twice as long, just by putting additional 15km of road somewhere alongside the original one. This way number of resources (I mean the map size) wouldn't change. Also roads could cross in various ways utilizing the same ara (map). We all know it does not happen, which proves my theory, that stage length is not constrained by map size (computer physical resources), but by something else. And my guess is "infrastructure".

Please note, I'm not trying to suggest CM what they have to do. I'm just against of myths, often being created by community to justify developers'/publisher's decision (while real reasons are completely different)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PaloSamo said:








dgeesi0 said:



well the mod we are talking about is actually a great one couple it with semtin which is a really tight car width road on asphalt the way the car moves over bumps and uneven ground is close to reality.one thing dirt misses is when you jump or go over uneven ground it feels flat . on the mod you can feel both sides of the car reacting through the steering.

this is the track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYARYzYiT6E

while the graphics are bad the feel is great. im hoping Dirt 4 has that feel on the asphalt .

also the width of the track really adds to rally.this really needs to be addressed as it gives a better perspective to speed and danger when its tight.







The Semetin stage in AC is a carbon copy of the Semetin stage created for RSRBR and is an exact recreation of the Semetin stage that was used in the 2009 Barum Rally Zlín. I've driven it on both titles in the past and somehow I liked it more in RSRBR with an NGP car.




As far as I know Semetin (and a lot of other tracks) was initially made for RBR-Czech mod. RSRBR got it later. There are other RBR mods apart from RSRBR, including Italian RBR-World, where you get time penalty for being late for a stage/service area, as well as for getting there too early!


The earlier stages (Pribram, Hradek, Liptakov, Bergheim and Sosnova) were created for Czech RBR first. Semetin and lots of other stages were implemented in both around the same time. Usually earlier in Czech RBR because they were stand alone stages. RSRBR waited a bit longer because they put out updates which contained more content (e.g. new cars, tracks, etc.).

I remember that quite a few of the rally stages in AC are RSRBR conversions:
1. Kuadovaara
2. Peyre (AC) / Peyregrosse Mandagout (RSRBR) --> The AC version is a bit longer.
3. Semetin
4. Puy du Lac
5. Peklo
6. Another Finnish stage

That's more than half the rally stages available for AC.
I love the Semetin stage because it is a challenge. Peklo is even more challenging but the most challenging of them all is Peyre. It took a lot of energy and focus to finish that stage. There was no place for errors. Very narrow and constantly changing direction. I got quite a sweat afterwards I can tell you. I would love to see stages like these in D4. It's extremely similar to the Corsican stages although the town of Peyregrosse is in the French Alps. 



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

carpa said:
I can do this in 200 meters, no need for 200 km. Sit and watch, it's gonna be quick.
[Proceeds to take the Audi quattro out for a spin in Finland]


The term you're looking for is "Hold my beer and watch this."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




MaXyMsrpl said:
Sorry, but what your statement is based on? Because it cannot be the knowledge. How do you think various titles can handle open worlds? You have not to render whole map to show only a small part. Also, there are techniques called 'streaming' which allows to load objects on the fly... 
Next, single objects in DR as well as D4 are not unique. These are re-used multiple times to build the map. So this is only a question of repeating stuff.




You do realise that the feature that allows streaming of the objects has to be implemented in the game engine? Just so you know, not a single game released by Codemasters today has had that. All of them had to first load the map before you could play. Adding such a thing to an existing already limited engine is probably not only time consuming but also completely pointless.

Also, just because the objects are repeated doesn't mean they don't have any impact on resources. DirectX11 has a very steep perfomance curve drop in terms of the drew calls at the same time. Once you pass a certain point it just tanks down. If you have to draw the same object thousand times... you still have to draw it a thousand times. The fact remains and with it the performance drop.

That's one of the reasons why I would prefer if DiRT 4 was released in 2018 or even 2019. Actual new engine, without all this limitation and a lot more stuff implemented that they couldn't do for DiRT 4. Guys from Evolution studios are definitely bringing some incredible knowledge, which means that in few years time there will be some amazing stuff out there. Till then though... just more of pretty much the same even if a lot of work has been put into that change.


You're mostly right on the draw calls (unless 3d rendering is different from game engines.) having copies of trees and instances of trees are two different things. It's late and I'm tired, but instancing drastically reduces memory usage as opposed to copies, but from what I remember/understand right now instancing means the software knows the trees are all identical, and are thus treated as the same object.
Having a forest of instanced trees isn't quite as taxing as you'd think, but then all the trees are exactly the same (minus rotation and scale).
I'd also have to assume that Ego has a LOD streaming setup. I can't imagine they load the entire map in 100% to the ram and have no LOD. But if they did, with the performance it gets, then damn I'm impressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites




But there is only so much you can render in game before it takes a toll on performance. Doing a 200 km stage in DiRT4 would probably end up with single digit FPS



It would be moving from a closed circuit racer (render the track during the load screen) to an open world game (loading the track during gameplay). That would probably require the fps to be cut to 30 for consoles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MaXyMsrpl said:

At first I'm arguing against '1 fps' statement which suggests that stage length is constrained by power of gaming computer rather than software (the game). Streaming is one of possibilities which proves what I'm saying. And yes, I know developing streaming based engine is not cheap (dev resources-wise). But there are other possibilities (read below)
At second: you don't have to draw all (ie 1000 the same objects) if those are invisible (culled), far away (LODded) etc. Also drawing those is not such costly if you can save memory related drawback (use shared/multidim textures etc). At the end DR is addressing the same issue all the time. A player can see only part of a map, while whole map sit in memory.
At third: being have 15km stage, we could had easily as twice as long, just by putting additional 15km of road somewhere alongside the original one. This way number of resources (I mean the map size) wouldn't change. Also roads could cross in various ways utilizing the same ara (map). We all know it does not happen, which proves my theory, that stage length is not constrained by map size (computer physical resources), but by something else. And my guess is "infrastructure". 


Download 3DMark and run the API overhead test. See how the FPS goes down to 1. That limit is partly due to hardware and partly due to software (aka DirectX11). Now they could add streaming into the game engine but that would mean the game would not have Your Stage because I'm pretty darn sure that the accountants still wanted the game to release as soon as possible to ride on the rally hype that exists now to ensure high enough sales. And then they wouldn't have any stages to go with because the licensing kicks in so... they're left with no product to release. That would definitely make the higher ups "very happy".

As to your second issue, remember the infamous Assassins Creed Unity? Want to know why it had a performance that was all over the place and looking at the same spot resulted in completely different FPS results? Draw calls limit. Even if you have occlusion culling you still need to draw things. Even if you add LODs, you still have to draw things. All that adds up when you're aiming for highest quality AND don't have streaming.

Lastly, if you would put it somewhere near the original, you would need to add the draw calls again. Map size doesn't matter here, it's how much draw calls you have to make. There's this location in DiRT Rally called Monte Carlo, which is one long stage so they could add it together. But they did state that they can't do it due to technical limitations. And that only points to draw calls limit. And I don't think anyone wants any more performance drops in Monte Carlo, when that is as difficult and taxing on the system as it is.


JZStudios said:
It's late and I'm tired, but instancing drastically reduces memory usage as opposed to copies, but from what I remember/understand right now instancing means the software knows the trees are all identical, and are thus treated as the same object.
Having a forest of instanced trees isn't quite as taxing as you'd think, but then all the trees are exactly the same (minus rotation and scale).


But it is still taxing. And add many small things and... you end up with one big thing. In a situation where they don't have streaming, that becomes an issue. They need to be constantly aware of how much room they have left. Until they move to a new engine that has either streaming or is running Vulkan/DirectX12, draw calls will be the bottleneck here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

kop9000 said:

Will the game on dvd disks be released or will it only be in Steam?


It depends on where you are but I think there will be discs in some territories. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KickUp said:



kop9000 said:


Will the game on dvd disks be released or will it only be in Steam?




It depends on where you are but I think there will be discs in some territories. 


I am in Russia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know that you can get them in Poland, CDProjekt is probably the official distributor here, probably why they have a good deal on the box version of DiRT 4 on gram.pl :D Almost half the price on Steam xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I know that you can get them in Poland, CDProjekt is probably the official distributor here, probably why they have a good deal on the box version of DiRT 4 on gram.pl :D Almost half the price on Steam xD


Free copy of Witcher 3 with every game!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JZStudios said:



carpa said:
I can do this in 200 meters, no need for 200 km. Sit and watch, it's gonna be quick.
[Proceeds to take the Audi quattro out for a spin in Finland]




The term you're looking for is "Hold my beer and watch this."


It really is :D Thanks, this term doesn't exist in Italian (my native language BTW)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites






I know that you can get them in Poland, CDProjekt is probably the official distributor here, probably why they have a good deal on the box version of DiRT 4 on gram.pl :D Almost half the price on Steam xD




Free copy of Witcher 3 with every game!


Well... not really xD Although the names are similar, CDP RED is a dev studio, while CD Projekt is an old games distributor here in Poland. So unfortunately no free Witcher games, but at half of the price on Steam... heck, I ain't getting it from Steam for sure. Still not pre-ordering it anyway, not enough money and I don't support pre-ordering policy unless it allows to buy something at a price lower than that at launch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

carpa said:



JZStudios said:





carpa said:
I can do this in 200 meters, no need for 200 km. Sit and watch, it's gonna be quick.
[Proceeds to take the Audi quattro out for a spin in Finland]






The term you're looking for is "Hold my beer and watch this."




It really is :D Thanks, this term doesn't exist in Italian (my native language BTW)


In Italian it's probably "Hold my wine and watch this." :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@KickUp I was just looking at the Dirt 4 website and Im wondering what the Pro Tour Ladder is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ooooh interesting ! B)                                                                                                

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites







P308R said:



Africa or Argentina would be pretty awesome as new locations  <3






Seventh time I try posting this without the quotes getting meßed up:

I'd LOVE to rip through El Condor someday. It was disappointing to find that nobody had even tried to recreate it in RBR.




I've ripped through El Cóndor many times in my road car at 20-40km/hr, and it's ROUGH!  :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×