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JZStudios said:
EDIT
I'll add a third interpretation.
3 - They understand the fans want DiRT Rally 2 but the DiRT team isn't really calling the shots that much on what's going to be in the next game. Could it be a sign of a certain strict licensor?
Toyota confirmed?
Confirmed what?

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Jack4688 said:
JZStudios said:
EDIT
I'll add a third interpretation.
3 - They understand the fans want DiRT Rally 2 but the DiRT team isn't really calling the shots that much on what's going to be in the next game. Could it be a sign of a certain strict licensor?
Toyota confirmed?
Confirmed what?
Toyota confirmed to be as unaware of Codemasters' next rally title as all of us?

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JZStudios said:
EDIT
I'll add a third interpretation.
3 - They understand the fans want DiRT Rally 2 but the DiRT team isn't really calling the shots that much on what's going to be in the next game. Could it be a sign of a certain strict licensor?
Toyota confirmed?
When Toyota starts dictating what content, in general, you can have in your game, that's when it's time to ditch them.

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JZStudios said:
EDIT
I'll add a third interpretation.
3 - They understand the fans want DiRT Rally 2 but the DiRT team isn't really calling the shots that much on what's going to be in the next game. Could it be a sign of a certain strict licensor?
Toyota confirmed?
When Toyota starts dictating what content, in general, you can have in your game, that's when it's time to ditch them.
Well they dictate whether or not Toyota's are in.

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Another issue I see is when the game comes out, which is difficult for a racing license. If it comes out at the start of the year, it would be based on the previous years cars and locations, so would already be out of date. Too late in the year and it’s out of date almost immediately. F1 already comes out in August/September? So that’s tied up for codemasters.

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JZStudios said:
Well they dictate whether or not Toyota's are in.
Yes, but I was referring to controlling the game's entire content. Unless the game is about looking at Toyotas they better not have such a level of control  :D

Another issue I see is when the game comes out, which is difficult for a racing license. If it comes out at the start of the year, it would be based on the previous years cars and locations, so would already be out of date. Too late in the year and it’s out of date almost immediately. F1 already comes out in August/September? So that’s tied up for codemasters.
If Codemasters are making a 2018 WRC game, which Daniel Elena's leak suggests some developer is doing 2018, they have to release it this year, otherwise, as you said, they'll be out of date quickly. F1 games are typically released in August. WRC games are typically released in October. Considering the vast differences between the two sports and the fact that they are games made by different teams, within Codemasters, I don't see the problem.

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Bigben increases its stake in Kylotonn to 45 % of the capital
https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/04/18/1481107/0/en/Bigben-increases-its-stake-in-Kylotonn-to-45-of-the-capital.html

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JZStudios said:
Well they dictate whether or not Toyota's are in.
Yes, but I was referring to controlling the game's entire content. Unless the game is about looking at Toyotas they better not have such a level of control  :D

Another issue I see is when the game comes out, which is difficult for a racing license. If it comes out at the start of the year, it would be based on the previous years cars and locations, so would already be out of date. Too late in the year and it’s out of date almost immediately. F1 already comes out in August/September? So that’s tied up for codemasters.
If Codemasters are making a 2018 WRC game, which Daniel Elena's leak suggests some developer is doing 2018, they have to release it this year, otherwise, as you said, they'll be out of date quickly. F1 games are typically released in August. WRC games are typically released in October. Considering the vast differences between the two sports and the fact that they are games made by different teams, within Codemasters, I don't see the problem.

Definitely share comms resources though.

If it is a competent developer, I'm more and more hoping for the ACC approach of 'early access release with '18 content, Dev through the winter and '19 content added for full release'. The DR early access programme was a perfect example of this.

One thing that was aaslight downer with WRC7 was them not adding any WRC2 competitors who were in rounds after Finland. At least releasing after a season (well, after Spain at least) would allow these to be in. If they followed Kyloten's approach there wouldn't be the VW R5 possible in this year's game.

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Definitely share comms resources though.
Comms resourses as in communications? Marketing resources? I'd think, for a company with multiple studios and capable of developing and launching several games, the marketing team must be prepared to accomodate this fact.


If it is a competent developer, I'm more and more hoping for the ACC approach of 'early access release with '18 content, Dev through the winter and '19 content added for full release'. The DR early access programme was a perfect example of this.

One thing that was aaslight downer with WRC7 was them not adding any WRC2 competitors who were in rounds after Finland. At least releasing after a season (well, after Spain at least) would allow these to be in. If they followed Kyloten's approach there wouldn't be the VW R5 possible in this year's game.
I'd like the idea of early access with 2018 content and then adding 2019, like ACC. However, I'm not sure the WRC Promoter would feel the same way. Remember, they'll want to use this game for e-sports, almost certainly, and they'll want to have all the championship rounds, in order to run it parallel to the real WRC, like they did in previous years. A game in early access won't do for e-sports due to an increased potential for bugs and glitches. After all, an early access game is, technically, an unfinished product. I'm not even sure the WRC Promoter would be fond of the idea of launching WRC as an  'unfinished product'. At the very least, the WRC Promoter would want the game to be considered finished by the time of the next e-sports season, which should be next January.

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Jack4688 said:
Early access: DiRT Rally 2
Full game: WRC 2019
problem solved
Problem not solved. What if the WRC Promoter says only current cars (no classics) or no non-WRC locations? People will expect those kinds of things (classics and new locations) from a game called DiRT Rally 2, because DiRT Rally 1 had them. What happens when 2019 comes and they get none of that stuff?

Title should be: DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game. This way, the DiRT branding is there, to help sell, and it's not a sequel to DiRT Rally, but rather a spinoff.

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Jack4688 said:
Early access: DiRT Rally 2
Full game: WRC 2019
problem solved
Problem not solved. What if the WRC Promoter says only current cars (no classics) or no non-WRC locations? People will expect those kinds of things (classics and new locations) from a game called DiRT Rally 2, because DiRT Rally 1 had them. What happens when 2019 comes and they get none of that stuff?

Title should be: DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game. This way, the DiRT branding is there, to help sell, and it's not a sequel to DiRT Rally, but rather a spinoff.
I'm going to instantly pre-order the DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game 22B Special Limited S1E2 Collectors Box Kebab-pizza Edition.

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Areyouben said:
So a spinoff of a spinoff?              
If Codemasters are the ones working with WRC now, it would depend on what they've managed to negotiate. If WRC pulls a lot of strings and decides to restrict content, a new spinoff is the only choice, if you want to still use the DiRT name. A DiRT Rally 2 with only the 2018 WRC season cars wouldn't sink well with some folks here, who are attached to the classics. It'll feel like a downgrade, content wise, compared to the original DiRT Rally.

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Jack4688 said:
Early access: DiRT Rally 2
Full game: WRC 2019
problem solved
Problem not solved. What if the WRC Promoter says only current cars (no classics) or no non-WRC locations? People will expect those kinds of things (classics and new locations) from a game called DiRT Rally 2, because DiRT Rally 1 had them. What happens when 2019 comes and they get none of that stuff?

Title should be: DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game. This way, the DiRT branding is there, to help sell, and it's not a sequel to DiRT Rally, but rather a spinoff.
I think out of the user base who understood the heritage of those stages from DiRT Rally they will also understand the issues behind doing that all over again. Good content is good content, it doesn’t have to be the stages used on world rallies to draw us in.

If the game has no official WRC licence associated with it at early access the promotor should hopefully keep their nose out of it.

Problem solved.

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Jack4688 said:
I think out of the user base who understood the heritage of those stages from DiRT Rally they will also understand the issues behind doing that all over again. Good content is good content, it doesn’t have to be the stages used on world rallies to draw us in.

If the game has no official WRC licence associated with it at early access the promotor should hopefully keep their nose out of it.

Problem solved.
The problem is, with a license as big as WRC, can you tell them "Excuse me, can you be on hold, for another 6 months to a year, while we do early access? Then you can come in at the end."

I don't think so. If Kylotton's 8 month deadline to finish WRC 5 has told us something, is that the WRC Promoter will want its content and branding there from the start and they won't want to be in a WIP, they'll want to put their brand on a full product.

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Jepsertti said:
I'm going to instantly pre-order the DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game 22B Special Limited S1E2 Collectors Box Kebab-pizza Edition.

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Jack4688 said:
Early access: DiRT Rally 2
Full game: WRC 2019
problem solved
Problem not solved. What if the WRC Promoter says only current cars (no classics) or no non-WRC locations? People will expect those kinds of things (classics and new locations) from a game called DiRT Rally 2, because DiRT Rally 1 had them. What happens when 2019 comes and they get none of that stuff?

Title should be: DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game. This way, the DiRT branding is there, to help sell, and it's not a sequel to DiRT Rally, but rather a spinoff.
WRC1, 2 and 3 (by Milestone) had historic cars. WRC4 (when BigBen took over, but still made by Milestone) didn't. So, not sure what to make of that, license wise.

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Jack4688 said:
I think out of the user base who understood the heritage of those stages from DiRT Rally they will also understand the issues behind doing that all over again. Good content is good content, it doesn’t have to be the stages used on world rallies to draw us in.

If the game has no official WRC licence associated with it at early access the promotor should hopefully keep their nose out of it.

Problem solved.
The problem is, with a license as big as WRC, can you tell them "Excuse me, can you be on hold, for another 6 months to a year, while we do early access? Then you can come in at the end."

I don't think so. If Kylotton's 8 month deadline to finish WRC 5 has told us something, is that the WRC Promoter will want its content and branding there from the start and they won't want to be in a WIP, they'll want to put their brand on a full product.

If Kylotton's 8 month WRC5 taught WRC Promoter anything, it will be that rushing a game out in 8 months is a terrible idea. Especially as it was competing with DiRT Rally at the time!

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Jack4688 said:
Early access: DiRT Rally 2
Full game: WRC 2019
problem solved
Problem not solved. What if the WRC Promoter says only current cars (no classics) or no non-WRC locations? People will expect those kinds of things (classics and new locations) from a game called DiRT Rally 2, because DiRT Rally 1 had them. What happens when 2019 comes and they get none of that stuff?

Title should be: DiRT EVO The Official World Rally Championship Game. This way, the DiRT branding is there, to help sell, and it's not a sequel to DiRT Rally, but rather a spinoff.
WRC1, 2 and 3 (by Milestone) had historic cars. WRC4 (when BigBen took over, but still made by Milestone) didn't. So, not sure what to make of that, license wise.
In those times, it was also possible to put recent WRCs in other games, together with classics. This divide is more recent and, honestly, between BigBen, the publisher, and WRC, the license holder, which is the one most likely to dictate content? I'd say the one who owns the content that's going to be in the game. WRC Promoter probably just changed their stance, to try and keep their games focused on the current times.

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Jack4688 said:
I think out of the user base who understood the heritage of those stages from DiRT Rally they will also understand the issues behind doing that all over again. Good content is good content, it doesn’t have to be the stages used on world rallies to draw us in.

If the game has no official WRC licence associated with it at early access the promotor should hopefully keep their nose out of it.

Problem solved.
The problem is, with a license as big as WRC, can you tell them "Excuse me, can you be on hold, for another 6 months to a year, while we do early access? Then you can come in at the end."

I don't think so. If Kylotton's 8 month deadline to finish WRC 5 has told us something, is that the WRC Promoter will want its content and branding there from the start and they won't want to be in a WIP, they'll want to put their brand on a full product.

If Kylotton's 8 month WRC5 taught WRC Promoter anything, it will be that rushing a game out in 8 months is a terrible idea. Especially as it was competing with DiRT Rally at the time!
In that regard, WRC 5 was a mess. I would like to know that they've learned. I just don't have the confidence that they did or even care, unfortunately.

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If Kylotton's 8 month WRC5 taught WRC Promoter anything, it will be that rushing a game out in 8 months is a terrible idea. Especially as it was competing with DiRT Rally at the time!
I'm going to get into some possibly wild speculation here, but if Codemasters did indeed nab the WRC license then DiRT 4 being released in practically an alpha state (IMO) is really starting to make sense. Hear me out:

Bigben registered v-rally4.com in September 2017. So it's clear at that point that at least Kylotonn was not doing another WRC game. I assume they knew long before September 2017 that they were not continuing with the license since I am sure getting the rights to V-Rally took some time. Perhaps new licensing talks began at the beginning of 2017 and the deal was closed before DiRT 4's launch? If so, DiRT 4's shortcomings start to make a lot of sense.

Paul Coleman admitted in a stream the week after D4's launch that they did not have enough time to tweak all the car handling the way they wanted to and covered his behind by hiding behind the default setups argument. R5s and R2s, at least to me, and most of the community (even those who harshly criticize D4) tend to agree that those two car classes overall feel very good. It's the RWDs and other classic 4WDs that feel very odd. R5 and R2 are coincidentally the only two classes in D4 that are present in the WRC games.

So my theory is: what if Codemasters knew before D4's launch that they had the WRC license? If that is the case, all the shortcomings of D4 now make sense. They had to abandon D4 before it was even released to go head-on into WRC development. And "lending" staff to the F1 team didn't actually happen. It was an excuse to cover up the fact they had abandoned D4 and at the same time hide the fact they were working on WRC. So CM put all their last-gasp efforts into perfecting the R2 and R5 classes in D4 so they could get to work on WRC. After all, none of the other cars in the game will be needed in WRC.

Ditto on the repetitiveness of Your Stage: maybe they did intend to have many more tiles but didn't bother to continue development because they needed to focus on WRC.

This also makes adding clubs to D4 six months after launch make much more sense. They knew on-one was going to use them. But they needed a test bed for their new eSports platform. The functionality is fantastic and there is no way they developed that system only for a failed game (D4) and its current eSports competition.

So my theory is that they dropped dev work early on D4 because they had to dedicate resources to WRC. They left D4 with the only tweaked car classes being those two that would be in a WRC title and they finished the eSports platform. That's why we never got any handling tweaks. That's why we never got any more tiles. That's why we never got another rallycross track.  They didn't want to waste time on cars that won't be in a WRC game. And the lending of personnel to the F1 team and being busy with the clubs patch were just excuses to cover up the fact that they were actually hard at work on WRC.

If Codies does actually do the next WRC game I will feel good about my theory. If not, well, I just wasted a lot of time typing.

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If Kylotton's 8 month WRC5 taught WRC Promoter anything, it will be that rushing a game out in 8 months is a terrible idea. Especially as it was competing with DiRT Rally at the time!
I'm going to get into some possibly wild speculation here, but if Codemasters did indeed nab the WRC license then DiRT 4 being released in practically an alpha state (IMO) is really starting to make sense. Hear me out:

Bigben registered v-rally4.com in September 2017. So it's clear at that point that at least Kylotonn was not doing another WRC game. I assume they knew long before September 2017 that they were not continuing with the license since I am sure getting the rights to V-Rally took some time. Perhaps new licensing talks began at the beginning of 2017 and the deal was closed before DiRT 4's launch? If so, DiRT 4's shortcomings start to make a lot of sense.

Paul Coleman admitted in a stream the week after D4's launch that they did not have enough time to tweak all the car handling the way they wanted to and covered his behind by hiding behind the default setups argument. R5s and R2s, at least to me, and most of the community (even those who harshly criticize D4) tend to agree that those two car classes overall feel very good. It's the RWDs and other classic 4WDs that feel very odd. R5 and R2 are coincidentally the only two classes in D4 that are present in the WRC games.

So my theory is: what if Codemasters knew before D4's launch that they had the WRC license? If that is the case, all the shortcomings of D4 now make sense. They had to abandon D4 before it was even released to go head-on into WRC development. And "lending" staff to the F1 team didn't actually happen. It was an excuse to cover up the fact they had abandoned D4 and at the same time hide the fact they were working on WRC. So CM put all their last-gasp efforts into perfecting the R2 and R5 classes in D4 so they could get to work on WRC. After all, none of the other cars in the game will be needed in WRC.

Ditto on the repetitiveness of Your Stage: maybe they did intend to have many more tiles but didn't bother to continue development because they needed to focus on WRC.

This also makes adding clubs to D4 six months after launch make much more sense. They knew on-one was going to use them. But they needed a test bed for their new eSports platform. The functionality is fantastic and there is no way they developed that system only for a failed game (D4) and its current eSports competition.

So my theory is that they dropped dev work early on D4 because they had to dedicate resources to WRC. They left D4 with the only tweaked car classes being those two that would be in a WRC title and they finished the eSports platform. That's why we never got any handling tweaks. That's why we never got any more tiles. That's why we never got another rallycross track.  They didn't want to waste time on cars that won't be in a WRC game. And the lending of personnel to the F1 team and being busy with the clubs patch were just excuses to cover up the fact that they were actually hard at work on WRC.

If Codies does actually do the next WRC game I will feel good about my theory. If not, well, I just wasted a lot of time typing.


In all seriousness, good speculation! DiRT 4 always felt like it released too soon, that it lacked polish.

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If Kylotton's 8 month WRC5 taught WRC Promoter anything, it will be that rushing a game out in 8 months is a terrible idea. Especially as it was competing with DiRT Rally at the time!
I'm going to get into some possibly wild speculation here, but if Codemasters did indeed nab the WRC license then DiRT 4 being released in practically an alpha state (IMO) is really starting to make sense. Hear me out:

Bigben registered v-rally4.com in September 2017. So it's clear at that point that at least Kylotonn was not doing another WRC game. I assume they knew long before September 2017 that they were not continuing with the license since I am sure getting the rights to V-Rally took some time. Perhaps new licensing talks began at the beginning of 2017 and the deal was closed before DiRT 4's launch? If so, DiRT 4's shortcomings start to make a lot of sense.

Paul Coleman admitted in a stream the week after D4's launch that they did not have enough time to tweak all the car handling the way they wanted to and covered his behind by hiding behind the default setups argument. R5s and R2s, at least to me, and most of the community (even those who harshly criticize D4) tend to agree that those two car classes overall feel very good. It's the RWDs and other classic 4WDs that feel very odd. R5 and R2 are coincidentally the only two classes in D4 that are present in the WRC games.

So my theory is: what if Codemasters knew before D4's launch that they had the WRC license? If that is the case, all the shortcomings of D4 now make sense. They had to abandon D4 before it was even released to go head-on into WRC development. And "lending" staff to the F1 team didn't actually happen. It was an excuse to cover up the fact they had abandoned D4 and at the same time hide the fact they were working on WRC. So CM put all their last-gasp efforts into perfecting the R2 and R5 classes in D4 so they could get to work on WRC. After all, none of the other cars in the game will be needed in WRC.

Ditto on the repetitiveness of Your Stage: maybe they did intend to have many more tiles but didn't bother to continue development because they needed to focus on WRC.

This also makes adding clubs to D4 six months after launch make much more sense. They knew on-one was going to use them. But they needed a test bed for their new eSports platform. The functionality is fantastic and there is no way they developed that system only for a failed game (D4) and its current eSports competition.

So my theory is that they dropped dev work early on D4 because they had to dedicate resources to WRC. They left D4 with the only tweaked car classes being those two that would be in a WRC title and they finished the eSports platform. That's why we never got any handling tweaks. That's why we never got any more tiles. That's why we never got another rallycross track.  They didn't want to waste time on cars that won't be in a WRC game. And the lending of personnel to the F1 team and being busy with the clubs patch were just excuses to cover up the fact that they were actually hard at work on WRC.

If Codies does actually do the next WRC game I will feel good about my theory. If not, well, I just wasted a lot of time typing.
You could be right.

But I think you are being a bit unfair re the negative tone. Businesses have to continue to produce, they can't change their schedules on a sixpence because of things that may or may not happen. Sometimes you just have to plan for both eventualities and make the best of it whatever occurs.

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