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DiRTy Gossip Thread

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Dytut said:
gfRally said:
Not sure where this fits, so Gossip thread it will be:

http://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/24721/subaru-might-be-developing-a-subcompact-hatch-for-2020-wrc-competition

Not sure what to make of the Japanese magazine they are quoting from, don't know its record.  Many things at play and a lot of hoops to jump thru to make a modern WRC car.  

If WRC rules do not allow for a boxer engine, then this will take the car so far away from what we know that makes a subie unique that it will just be any other car with a shell that somewhat looks like a model they sell.  
Out of curiousity, why whouldn't a boxer engine be allowed? Or is anything else than a straight 4 forbidden now? 
I've checked the technical regulations for WRC a bit and I haven't seen any article regulating the engine architecture, just the displacement of 1600 cm3

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Dytut said:
gfRally said:
Not sure where this fits, so Gossip thread it will be:

http://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/24721/subaru-might-be-developing-a-subcompact-hatch-for-2020-wrc-competition

Not sure what to make of the Japanese magazine they are quoting from, don't know its record.  Many things at play and a lot of hoops to jump thru to make a modern WRC car.  

If WRC rules do not allow for a boxer engine, then this will take the car so far away from what we know that makes a subie unique that it will just be any other car with a shell that somewhat looks like a model they sell.  
Out of curiousity, why whouldn't a boxer engine be allowed? Or is anything else than a straight 4 forbidden now? 
I would like to know exactly where this information has come from, as I didn't think that the current WRC regulations explicitly prohibited the use of flat engines.

Subaru left before the switch but, when the regulations changed from 2.0L to 1.6L Subaru didn't have a production 1.6L engine available, therefore Subaru had no suitable engine for WRC should they have wanted to return. I have a suspicion that, thanks to the internet, this has been read that flat engines were banned from rallying. 

Subaru have the FB16 engine now, which I think could be eligible. 

If anyone has any further information on the specific regulations for the current WRC engines, then please post it here! 

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The only regulations that would apply is for cylinder capacity and 4cylinder limit I think. Maybe Subaru didn't feel a 1600 engine was competitive in their orientation. I'd be pretty surprised to see a Subaru WRC car within the timeframe specified in that article though, however much I'd like to see them back. I think mitsubishi could get there quicker but they don't seem too interested.


Correction : mitsubishi could return in 2021 but nothing firm

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tbtstt said:
Subaru didn't have a production 1.6L engine available, therefore Subaru had no suitable engine for WRC should they have wanted to return. I have a suspicion that, thanks to the internet, this has been read that flat engines were banned from rallying. 
I always read that everywhere, but as far as I know it was just the WRX model that didn't get the 1.6. The base model (non WRX) Impreza have been getting 1.6 or 1.5 engines since the very first generation Impreza, including the current Impreza after WRX became it's own seperate model.

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Rallystu2 said:
The only regulations that would apply is for cylinder capacity and 4cylinder limit I think. Maybe Subaru didn't feel a 1600 engine was competitive in their orientation. I'd be pretty surprised to see a Subaru WRC car within the timeframe specified in that article though, however much I'd like to see them back. I think mitsubishi could get there quicker but they don't seem too interested.
Subaru were long gone from the WRC when the engine change came, so it wasn't the (potential) competitiveness of a 1.6L engine that was the issue. 

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No not the issue with them leaving but perhaps a return could've been sooner. Subaru were always known for their beasts like the impreza which is still a much loved car today so maybe the 1.6 thing is a bit off brand. But manufacturers aren't exactly leaping toward the wrc. The cost/reward hasn't been there which is probably why ford won't dip both feet in and give more support to M-Sport but I feel the new generation of wrc cars has breathed new life into the sport and gained a bigger following. Hopefully that means more factory outings.

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@tbtstt for some reason I thought you said this long long ago here.  But I must have read it elsewhere.   So at least that is a little bit better.

the article ‘claims’ Europeen sales have been flat or lackluster, here in the US they are exceeding sales projections for a number of years now, in the State that I live its also #2 or 3 for number of Subarus sold in the IS - its not uncommon for me to drive up the street and pass 3 in a few minutes.  Point being is if you guys disagree with sales over there, it’s likely the numbers are being compared today over here.  I give no credit to SRTUSA for boosting sales, maybe STIs but its extremely limited, if it has done anything here is keep brand loyalty for those that attend.  Also US rally doesn’t require the R&D abd budget that WRC requires.

If they have a 1.6ltr boxer already and they could market it here, with more than 320hp, I  could see it happening.   Unless they do a EU version 1.6, a US 2.0 version and still qualify for WRC?  


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It's a shame WRC had to step down to 1.6. The 2.0 engines were the best sounding by far and provided way more spectacle given the turbos and technology used at the time. Imagine what would be a 2000 Lancer Evo VI or an Impreza with today's turbo standards and the car chassis length. The true beasts were those.

In terms of engineering these new WRC cars are great but their appearance and the fact it's a 1.6 screaming lacks something. The cars, specially the Toyota, are way too small and a bit ridiculous looking. Only the Ford and the Hyundai look more like normal cars.
It's quite hard for me to imagine a Subaru to fit those sizes and it'll certainly look ugly af, because whenever I think of Subaru I immediately imagine the Impreza 1997 or the 2001-2004 versions.
Fitting in today's WRC standards i can only think of this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/1986_Subaru_Justy_4WD_%286553107375%29.jpg

:D
 

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gfRally said:
@tbtstt for some reason I thought you said this long long ago here.  But I must have read it elsewhere.   So at least that is a little bit better.

Don't listen to me @gfRally, I am usually talking rubbish! :D
gfRally said:
the article ‘claims’ Europeen sales have been flat or lackluster, here in the US they are exceeding sales projections for a number of years now, in the State that I live its also #2 or 3 for number of Subarus sold in the IS - its not uncommon for me to drive up the street and pass 3 in a few minutes.  Point being is if you guys disagree with sales over there, it’s likely the numbers are being compared today over here.  I give no credit to SRTUSA for boosting sales, maybe STIs but its extremely limited, if it has done anything here is keep brand loyalty for those that attend.  Also US rally doesn’t require the R&D abd budget that WRC requires.

I would agree with the statement about dwindling sales (for the WRX & STI) in the UK and I think the same is true in Europe as a whole. 

I really like the look of the latest generation of STI, but once the UK model went to the EJ25 there is no way I would go near one. Subaru UK (and I daresay all the National European dealerships) just didn't promote the WRX or STI well either, they aren't doing much better with the BRZ now. 

Yeah, Rally America doesn't require the budget of WRC, but Subaru have certainly thrown some cash at the Vermont program. 

The Impreza/WRX has, in my opinion, got too big. What I would really like to see is a similar powered platform but something much smaller: the Prodrive P2 would have been perfect, but I'd take something a little bigger if that's how it came!

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@tbtstt  i trust your subie knowledge way more than most.

I would buy a WRX if it looked like the P2.  Thats really nice.   Not seeing it in person to really judge size is good though.  However, now with a family My 4 door hatch is really convenient, maybe when my kid gets older and can sit up front a 2door would work.

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AIPacino said:
The cars, specially the Toyota, are way too small and a bit ridiculous looking. Only the Ford and the Hyundai look more like normal cars.
Since when was small and ridiculous looking a mark against a rally car?

(I think the Yaris is the best looking of the current WRC games—like someone crossed a hatchback with a spaceship.)

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dwkGravey said:
AIPacino said:
The cars, specially the Toyota, are way too small and a bit ridiculous looking. Only the Ford and the Hyundai look more like normal cars.
Since when was small and ridiculous looking a mark against a rally car?

(I think the Yaris is the best looking of the current WRC games—like someone crossed a hatchback with a spaceship.)
The Metro 6R4 probably would've been a better example 

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dwkGravey said:
AIPacino said:
The cars, specially the Toyota, are way too small and a bit ridiculous looking. Only the Ford and the Hyundai look more like normal cars.
Since when was small and ridiculous looking a mark against a rally car?

(I think the Yaris is the best looking of the current WRC games—like someone crossed a hatchback with a spaceship.)
I fully agree: I can't believe the amount of (clueless) people I see critiquing modern WRC saying that the cars are just "modified shopping trolleys" and "not a patch on Group B": the Peugeot 205 and the MG Metro represented exactly the same thing in the 80's! 

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gfRally said:
@tbtstt  i trust your subie knowledge way more than most.

I would buy a WRX if it looked like the P2.  Thats really nice.   Not seeing it in person to really judge size is good though.  However, now with a family My 4 door hatch is really convenient, maybe when my kid gets older and can sit up front a 2door would work.
The P2 is small (it was based on the Subaru R1 chassis) and was only a two seater. As much as I would like to see it happen, I doubt Subaru would put a small performance car like that into production as it would have zero practicality...

...that said, the P2 concept is a similar size to the BRZ, so never say never!

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AIPacino said:
The 205 wasn't that bad, the Metro was terrible.
"Wasn't that bad" it won the Drivers Championship in '85 with Salonen and '86 with Kankkunen. And the Constructors Championship in '85. And in the opinion of Juha Kankkunen himself, after he tried both, it was a more agile and easy car to drive compared to the Delta S4 which was a bit of a monster (even though it was overall faster I think). Your idea of 'not that bad' is debatable...

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tbtstt said:
gfRally said:
@tbtstt  i trust your subie knowledge way more than most.

I would buy a WRX if it looked like the P2.  Thats really nice.   Not seeing it in person to really judge size is good though.  However, now with a family My 4 door hatch is really convenient, maybe when my kid gets older and can sit up front a 2door would work.
The P2 is small (it was based on the Subaru R1 chassis) and was only a two seater. As much as I would like to see it happen, I doubt Subaru would put a small performance car like that into production as it would have zero practicality...

...that said, the P2 concept is a similar size to the BRZ, so never say never!
I'm a Subi Fan myself, never heard of the P2 so had to look it up...
This thing? :

Well... honestly I think that has zero to do with Subarus Design Language.
Kind of looks like a Cadillac had a threesome with a little Ford Ka and an Audi R8.
Not the worst design out there, but not really to my taste and I see no Subaru in that design.

I actually think Subaru is right on track currently. They continue to refine their Hawkeye language more and more. There are still some rough and ugly edges in some models (*cough*STI Concept*cough*), but it is getting along better and better. Like the new Viziv Tourer Concept:
Now that's some nice design imho. I hope they pour some of that into the next STI. Make it a limousine (aka a "sedan" in american) and put a wing on it. And some color, that is much more... blue.(says man, who daily drives one of the bluest cars in existence. Blue is nice ^^)
Anyway, look at that sexy front end of that concept. It's like they forged the elegance of a Volvo with the anger of a Lamborghini. It doesn't look all raged up, but more like some very confident evil smile. Love it. especially those headlights, please built a production model with those.

P.S.: WRC cars never got smaller. The production cars got bigger. What is a small car today has the size of a compact car from the millenium. It is just a nececity to use a small base car as a WRC car. So, although I like the millenial WRC cars more, I think the average consumer is to blame. Those who think small cars have to be bigger and still look cuddly... Although I do really like the i20 WRC, just not the colors

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Aye, when you put the C3 and Yaris next to each other, they look as different to me as the Quattro and 205.

Regarding Subaru, maybe we should move the chat to the WRC thread, but I think a semi-hot-hatch is what they've needed for ages in Europe. The current saloon models are very suited to the US market but no more acceptable in Europe than any other low-range saloon (seen as pretty pointless here).

There are still an aging generation raised on Colin McRae that they can tap into with it if they market it better than their recent efforts. A WRC campaign would be a good start, and they'd benefit hugely from the European focus the promoter is always complaining about IMO.

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Didzis said:
The Metro 6R4 probably would've been a better example 
I was looking for one but couldn't find a picture that showed the crew as squeezed together as in the 205.
How's this for small and ridiculous (of a different nature)!

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The front end design of Subaru that kind of look like Volvo is mainly to protect pedestrian for less harsh injury, It's a safety design. The front end get more plastic part & the hood is less likely be a cutting object.

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SkyRex said:
tbtstt said:
gfRally said:
@tbtstt  i trust your subie knowledge way more than most.

I would buy a WRX if it looked like the P2.  Thats really nice.   Not seeing it in person to really judge size is good though.  However, now with a family My 4 door hatch is really convenient, maybe when my kid gets older and can sit up front a 2door would work.
The P2 is small (it was based on the Subaru R1 chassis) and was only a two seater. As much as I would like to see it happen, I doubt Subaru would put a small performance car like that into production as it would have zero practicality...

...that said, the P2 concept is a similar size to the BRZ, so never say never!
I'm a Subi Fan myself, never heard of the P2 so had to look it up...
This thing? :

Well... honestly I think that has zero to do with Subarus Design Language.
Kind of looks like a Cadillac had a threesome with a little Ford Ka and an Audi R8.
Not the worst design out there, but not really to my taste and I see no Subaru in that design.
Yep, that's the one @SkyRex. That isn't the best picture and yeah, the car isn't a looker (but then you could say that about any Impreza!), but bare in mind that the concept is 12 years old now. The technical aspect of the car was it's most impressive feature. Clarkson doesn't get the details right, but he does convey the performance of the car in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONVZ8QFTnb4

At the time (and even now) I really hoped this was the direction that Subaru would take - especially when they announced that the WRX STI would become a completely standalone range from the Impreza - but the subsequent models have got bigger rather than more compact. Funny you mention about the "design language" as I thought some of the more recent WRX...



...and Viziv...



...concepts reminded me a lot of the P2. 
I actually think Subaru is right on track currently. They continue to refine their Hawkeye language more and more. There are still some rough and ugly edges in some models (*cough*STI Concept*cough*), but it is getting along better and better. Like the new Viziv Tourer Concept:
I sort of agree. I think they are heading back in the right direction with styling, the last WRX STI was definitely a major improvement in terms of looks, though I still think Subaru have lost their way a bit with the STI from a technical standpoint and the modern car is too big. 
SkyRex said:

P.S.: WRC cars never got smaller. The production cars got bigger. What is a small car today has the size of a compact car from the millenium. It is just a nececity to use a small base car as a WRC car. So, although I like the millenial WRC cars more, I think the average consumer is to blame. Those who think small cars have to be bigger and still look cuddly... Although I do really like the i20 WRC, just not the colors
Again I sort of agree. WRC cars in the late 00's got bigger (Mk.1/Mk.2 Focus, C4 and the GD/GR Impreza), but the 1.6L cars are smaller. But yeah production cars have, in general, got bigger: which brings me back to my major gripe with the development of the Impreza/WRX STI!

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