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5 minutes ago, Ferranis said:

They only have themselves to blame. The game is far from finished even now. Thats what you get when you release in a subpar status.

promise me that when dirt rally 3.0 don't appear  you're not whining?

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Posted (edited)

This happened.

I had a dream tonight, where somehow i was in Codemasters HQ in a room with the DiRT Team. The room looked more like one of my college's classrooms than a studio (well probably because it was a dream and i dont miss college), and I could see about 20 people in there in their desks, and then Ross Gowing and someone else about the same age who you could tell they had a senior role as well in the game.

I could see the disappointment and tireness in all of their faces. We talked about the review ********* in Steam, what could be done, what couldn't be done, what was going to be done and when I said "dont even think about doing a DiRT5, because if you do that now you (Codemasters) are shooting your feet and digging your own graves. Take the time and work in DR2.0 to make it right, otherwise people will lose the confidence in you for good", Gowing replied with a face like if he had his hands tied "we dont decide that", and I had the feeling such game was indeed already in the works.

While I had a marvel of speaking with him in my deep limbo, i didn't really like seeing the frustration stamped on those faces lol. To some extent, it probably might be true, it's not hard to figure it out. People who have worked hard and see a game having one the worst rocky starts ever. Because let's not forget we are also talking about real people here, regardless if we are paying for a product or not.

I'm not trying to excuse anyone with this, but I believe we all can take this game to good port, and so far it's been going in that direction.

Edited by Riggs
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14 hours ago, JZStudios said:

That's an annoying and apologetic outlook for making something seem better than it is.

People complaining about the game lacking things it never advertised is one thing, but people being upset that they spent money on a game they don't enjoy is valid. I don't play the game much because the FFB before the update was an utter bore and uninspiring. A few others of "significant" import have also put the game on hold. I'm certainly glad and appreciative of CM for letting me take part in the early stages and provide all of us last minute digital keys, which we weren't expecting.

CM is also very slow to respond to things, even if it is the higher ups immediately sending everyone on holiday the day of release and then taking the majority of the team to work on other products. We do have the forum, but the interaction between the devs and the community especially in this thread has practically vanished. I remember Paul, Christina, and Urgaffel in here constantly, just chatting and shooting ideas if not dropping hints. Now it's game release, flood the forums with feedback, and then eventually just a general "We're working on things" a month later. Half of that is probably due to the 2 week post launch vacation. Not that they don't deserve it.

Even if they did respond quicker, again, I'll blame the higher ups, but the team never seems to have enough time to actually do what properly needs to be done anyways. The games haven't really been shipping in an amazing state. It's annoying how the trend is to now push out games as fast as possible and maybe fix them later. I certainly don't have any insider knowledge, but there's been a lot of big key members bailing out of Codies.

Let's not forget Dirt 4 was supposed to get reasonable post-launch support, but there was almost none and the devs went pretty silent. Haven't seen the Mighty Craic since.

 

And then there's being ****** about DLC not being in the PS4 at exactly the right time.

I agree with you on pretty much everything, especially the communication.

I'm not saying people can't provide criticism but if they do, it needs to be constructive. I've provide criticism but always in a ways that could help the devs understand. Just going on an irrational rant and demanding things the way that person wants now shows their entitled behaviour. Same for those complaining, sometimes worse than that, about the lack of content or something else after they bought the game that was clearly advertised at that time. For the latter the person itself is at fault for buying it willy nilly without doing proper 'research'.

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2 hours ago, carpa said:

DiRT Rally, the original one, was created by the passion of a few members of the team, and it was mainly an experiment on which the higher ups weren't particularly interested at the start. 

DiRT Rally 2.0 was a game directed and decided by the higher ups and the developers had to sort of live with this. 

In the end, the public, the players and the reviewers can still tell the difference. DR2.0 is good, but it somehow lacks the soul the original had, and that was what told DR1 apart from all other games

Another factor is that Dirt Rally came out of nowhere. No one expected a sim oriented rally game from Codies and one day it just dropped out of sky. No hype, no expectations, no whining, people were just in awe what just happened. 

I love Dirt Rally but I feel it's already a bit of a 'rose tinted glasses' effect going on when looking back at it. 

That said, the release of DR2 has been anything but smooth and I hope they manage to iron things out in the end. Underneath all the problems this is far superior to Dirt Rally. 

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2 hours ago, teknoid85 said:

it really annoys me that this game don't get the right  approval

Same here. I posted on reddit asking people to correct their Steam reviews. There is still a lot of hate out there for always online, paid dlc's and no vr. 😕 People are nitpicking like crazy and can't see the positives. As if the fact that it's the best rally game of the generation doesn't matter.

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I dont know how some people were actually expecting the DLCs to be free.

The amount of work put into the remastered locations is bigger than people think. They have the layout already, but if you look at it, much of it is new (props, vegetation, track surface degradation), not to mention the core updates like physics, graphics and lighting which make things more interesting.

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5 minutes ago, danielofifi said:

Same here. I posted on reddit asking people to correct their Steam reviews. There is still a lot of hate out there for always online, paid dlc's and no vr. 😕 People are nitpicking like crazy and can't see the positives. As if the fact that it's the best rally game of the generation doesn't matter.

world full of brilliant minds

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12 minutes ago, Riggs said:

I dont know how some people were actually expecting the DLCs to be free.

The amount of work put into the remastered locations is bigger than people think. They have the layout already, but if you look at it, much of it is new (props, vegetation, track surface degradation), not to mention the core updates like physics, graphics and lighting which make things more interesting.

Not to mention that, even for my poor man standards, the dlc's are pretty cheap... Having said this, i understand the criticism, DR2.0 was shamefully rushed out, with about the same content but less features than DR in it's current state, and alot of game breaking bugs which are still to be resolved (fortunatly, i haven't had nothing serious, as i have never experienced the audio bug, the FFB was good enough for me, albeit far from perfect, never had problems loging in racenet, etc). Saying that DR2.0 customers are just whining about a game not being bug free in it's final release version is, in my opinion, like saying that it is ok if i buy a brand new Ferrari with a broken engine just because it is a... Ferrari... Paying customers are in their own right to criticize something that is obviously as bugged as DR2.0 is, if this criticism is honest and made in a positive way. It's up to CM to try and bring the game back on track, resolving the main issues with the help of us, those that love this game and don't wan't it to be dropped to soon, with still so much potential in it...

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26 minutes ago, Opassac said:

Not to mention that, even for my poor man standards, the dlc's are pretty cheap... Having said this, i understand the criticism, DR2.0 was shamefully rushed out, with about the same content but less features than DR in it's current state, and alot of game breaking bugs which are still to be resolved (fortunatly, i haven't had nothing serious, as i have never experienced the audio bug, the FFB was good enough for me, albeit far from perfect, never had problems loging in racenet, etc). Saying that DR2.0 customers are just whining about a game not being bug free in it's final release version is, in my opinion, like saying that it is ok if i buy a brand new Ferrari with a broken engine just because it is a... Ferrari... Paying customers are in their own right to criticize something that is obviously as bugged as DR2.0 is, if this criticism is honest and made in a positive way. It's up to CM to try and bring the game back on track, resolving the main issues with the help of us, those that love this game and don't wan't it to be dropped to soon, with still so much potential in it...

what people don't get is that dr1  was an early access game with MONTHS of  bugfixing and improvements!!!!!!!!

they almost sure buyed the finished dr1 and now whining about dr2.0, wich is getting evry day better..........

nothing else to say

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2 minutes ago, teknoid85 said:

what people don't get is that dr1  was an early access game with MONTHS of  bugfixing and improvements!!!!!!!!

they almost sure buyed the finished dr1 and now whining about dr2.0, wich is getting evry day better..........

nothing else to say

Ok, let's forget DR1 and the comparison with DR2.0... What i wanted to express is my understanding for those that, after paying a full price for a final released game, felt disappointed by the game having so much bugs (some of them game breaking), and so, rightfully, expressed their opinions in their reviews. I don't think it's acceptable and that we (we, as paying customers) should be condescending with CM just because they released a unique and potentially great game. Unfortunately, these practices are not CM exclusive, nowadays (with generalized internet connection and the possibilite of future patches), most of the times we buy a new game, it is usually far from finished...

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1 hour ago, teknoid85 said:

what people don't get is that dr1  was an early access game with MONTHS of  bugfixing and improvements!!!!!!!!

they almost sure buyed the finished dr1 and now whining about dr2.0, wich is getting evry day better..........

nothing else to say

Precisely that, DR2.0 is not an early access title, so people expect a finished game on release day after paying full price. Of course it's impossible to completely avoid having bugs on release, but it's generally pretty easy to tell when a game has been rushed.

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you know what this reminds me of a little? 

Assassin's Creed Unity. it was supposed to be the game which brought the series back to its roots - ie focus on parkour, map was just one city instead of a ton of countryside, ocean and some towns, etc.

unfortunately, that game was released in a much worse state than DR2.0. and that made people mistrust ubisoft so much that the follow-up, Syndicate, had mediocre sales too, and then the company took a year off from putting out an AC game to completely overhaul pretty much everything. but then we got Origins, which is the best game in the series (though Odyssey might have surpassed it, haven't played that one yet).

the thing is, I played it for the first time two years ago, and I played a pirated version with a bunch of performance improvements. and honestly, it's amazing now. it's one of my favourites in the series but it was too late. the damage was already done, and the impact is still being felt. ubi has learned that putting out high quality, well-polished games pays in the long run. that it's better to take a year off from putting out a game once in a while (they're doing it again this year) in order to make it amazing.

there are many people who argue that these last two games aren't AC games anymore, because they have changed the formula so much, but frankly .... who cares? the mythology they've created is pretty interesting, the historical accuracy (despite playing with major events and stuff) is on another level from literally everything else, including movies and series. and the games are fun to play and explore.

Dirt Rally 2.0 is a very good game. but it was essentially released unfinished, and that has really, really hurt it. I suspect development time was hurt by the release date for F1 2019 being moved up 2 months. CM say that player retention has been high, so I'm sure it'll be enough for us to get Season 3 and maybe even 4 (keep in mind, they'll get a big influx of money with those because all of us will have to buy them - something I will do, gladly). 

it's also worth pointing out that this game was hurt by the marketing campaign of Dirt 4. they tried to show it as both a sim and arcade racer. unfortunately the menu UI, the amount of options, the car list, the amazing amount of times of day and weather conditions, all pointed to it leaning towards being a sim, which alienated casual gamers, but the physics didn't, which alienated sim fans. it made people mistrust the brand, and more ready to criticise when DR2 had issues.

I just hope they learned the right lesson from this: the lesson is not that sim-ish rally games don't sell.

the lesson is that you can't release unfinished products. (and also, know your audience... )

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5 minutes ago, ianism said:

you know what this reminds me of a little? 

Assassin's Creed Unity. it was supposed to be the game which brought the series back to its roots - ie focus on parkour, map was just one city instead of a ton of countryside, ocean and some towns, etc.

unfortunately, that game was released in a much worse state than DR2.0. and that made people mistrust ubisoft so much that the follow-up, Syndicate, had mediocre sales too, and then the company took a year off from putting out an AC game to completely overhaul pretty much everything. but then we got Origins, which is the best game in the series (though Odyssey might have surpassed it, haven't played that one yet).

the thing is, I played it for the first time two years ago, and I played a pirated version with a bunch of performance improvements. and honestly, it's amazing now. it's one of my favourites in the series but it was too late. the damage was already done, and the impact is still being felt. ubi has learned that putting out high quality, well-polished games pays in the long run. that it's better to take a year off from putting out a game once in a while (they're doing it again this year) in order to make it amazing.

there are many people who argue that these last two games aren't AC games anymore, because they have changed the formula so much, but frankly .... who cares? the mythology they've created is pretty interesting, the historical accuracy (despite playing with major events and stuff) is on another level from literally everything else, including movies and series. and the games are fun to play and explore.

Dirt Rally 2.0 is a very good game. but it was essentially released unfinished, and that has really, really hurt it. I suspect development time was hurt by the release date for F1 2019 being moved up 2 months. CM say that player retention has been high, so I'm sure it'll be enough for us to get Season 3 and maybe even 4 (keep in mind, they'll get a big influx of money with those because all of us will have to buy them - something I will do, gladly). 

it's also worth pointing out that this game was hurt by the marketing campaign of Dirt 4. they tried to show it as both a sim and arcade racer. unfortunately the menu UI, the amount of options, the car list, the amazing amount of times of day and weather conditions, all pointed to it leaning towards being a sim, which alienated casual gamers, but the physics didn't, which alienated sim fans. it made people mistrust the brand, and more ready to criticise when DR2 had issues.

I just hope they learned the right lesson from this: the lesson is not that sim-ish rally games don't sell.

the lesson is that you can't release unfinished products. (and also, know your audience... )

Well, the harm is done, so let's just hope and wait CM fix and improve the game asap (and learn from their mistakes)... Now, back to gossips please 😉 

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9 hours ago, bogani said:

Two things about the (lack of)communication. 

- This is not Early Access. You can't compare this release to DR. 

- Codemasters went on the stock market since Dirt Rally. This legally limits what they can communicate. 

I'm not comparing it to early access. Compare it to other large studios. Even EA and Ubisoft are faster and more accurate with their feedback.

Going on the stock market doesn't limit developer feedback, or prevent them from accurately reporting on what they're actually doing.

 

EA is on the stock market, so let's take Battlefield V as an example. It's kind of a **** show, but DICE is still relatively active in stating what they're working on, and what changes and bugfixes are coming, as well as mostly everything that's in those patches. DICE just released a new patch with features the community was asking for while being pretty clear the entire time about what the patch entails and how these things work. Take it back to Battlefield 4 and the devs were EXTREMELY active with the community in order to find and fix bugs, change and add features, make new maps, etc.

It's pretty common for CM to just update games without patch notes, or with things missing. It's also now pretty common for them to just channel their internal Sean Murray and go silent for a month or two at a time while people are asking and wondering what the hell is going on.

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3 hours ago, SimVansevenant said:

I agree with you on pretty much everything, especially the communication.

I'm not saying people can't provide criticism but if they do, it needs to be constructive. I've provide criticism but always in a ways that could help the devs understand. Just going on an irrational rant and demanding things the way that person wants now shows their entitled behaviour. Same for those complaining, sometimes worse than that, about the lack of content or something else after they bought the game that was clearly advertised at that time. For the latter the person itself is at fault for buying it willy nilly without doing proper 'research'.

I still hate having to "research" a game in it's entirety before you buy it. Mostly due to poor refund systems and the lack of demos. For a racing game, okay, you can look up the tracks and cars which are advertised, but even still then you won't actually know what it feels like until you buy it, and then you could end with a game you don't like and no way to get your money back.

 

2 hours ago, danielofifi said:

Same here. I posted on reddit asking people to correct their Steam reviews. There is still a lot of hate out there for always online, paid dlc's and no vr. 😕 People are nitpicking like crazy and can't see the positives. As if the fact that it's the best rally game of the generation doesn't matter.

Oddly enough I predicted 2 of those 3 things would be an issue. VR is still a pretty minor subset.

But hey, everyone wanted to push for paid DLC. And I'm not surprised that it ended up being remade tracks from the first game that everyone already knows now. They're doing a good job with them, but it does still feel a little cheap. Which reminds me, there was zero indication or clarification of what the season pass or whatever would include at launch. Most games have at least something to say what it is you're paying for. I wonder how many people would've bought it if they knew the "new rallies" were the original ones.

2 hours ago, Opassac said:

Saying that DR2.0 customers are just whining about a game not being bug free in it's final release version is, in my opinion, like saying that it is ok if i buy a brand new Ferrari with a broken engine just because it is a... Ferrari...

But... every Ferrari you buy will break quickly anyways...

 

24 minutes ago, ianism said:

the historical accuracy (despite playing with major events and stuff) is on another level from literally everything else, including movies and series.

Sorry, but... no. Odyssey is terrible with historical accuracy. I'm not getting into it.

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2 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Sorry, but... no. Odyssey is terrible with historical accuracy. I'm not getting into it.

that's the only one I haven't played. all the others are superb.

I'm talking more about architecture, farming methods, clothing etc. anyways

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4 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

But... every Ferrari you buy will break quickly anyways...

Very good point 😄, still nobody expects it to be broken when it leaves the showroom 😉 ...

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Off topic but I'm thinking of picking up a 599xx evo rim for the T300. Does anyone have it? Is it worth the money? 

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1 hour ago, Decks said:

Off topic but I'm thinking of picking up a 599xx evo rim for the T300. Does anyone have it? Is it worth the money? 

If it's for rally, why not Sparco R383? That's what I would buy but I'm on T150 so no interchangeable rims for me. 😕

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Ugh hadn't even seen that one. Though it'll be for all kinds of racing so I'll probably just stick with the 599. Trying to fight the urge to buy it but I'm crumbling. 

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2 hours ago, Decks said:

Off topic but I'm thinking of picking up a 599xx evo rim for the T300. Does anyone have it? Is it worth the money? 

You can see it in my vids:

 

Specifically got the 599 Rim for the larger diameter, and I find it to be very worth it. With the alcantara-wrap you have a much better feeling wheel too, that doesn't touch like rubber (And still cheaper than a Fanatec) So far it is holding up well, even with hard countersteering movements regularly.

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You're not helping but thanks. 

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4 hours ago, Decks said:

You're not helping but thanks. 

I'm not entirely sold on D shaped wheels. Then again, I tend to drift and countersteer a lot.

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Yeah my resolve not to buy it didn't survive a bottle of wine last night, thanks for the effort though. 

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22 hours ago, bogani said:

Another factor is that Dirt Rally came out of nowhere. No one expected a sim oriented rally game from Codies and one day it just dropped out of sky. No hype, no expectations, no whining, people were just in awe what just happened. 

I love Dirt Rally but I feel it's already a bit of a 'rose tinted glasses' effect going on when looking back at it. 

That said, the release of DR2 has been anything but smooth and I hope they manage to iron things out in the end. Underneath all the problems this is far superior to Dirt Rally. 

DiRT Rally is, and will always be, seen through rose-tinted glasses. The handling in DR2.0 is superior to its predecessor, the graphics are better, the gravity actually a thing on the stages. What 2.0 lacks is the general feeling and the atmosphere DiRT Rally had during its release and its development. The first one was something unseen for decades, built by passionate rally fans for passionate rally fans almost for the sheer sake of it. An experiment that proved successful beyond any expectation. 

2.0 isn't made by less passionate people, it simply followed a more average release cycle with not-so-great results and ended up being too buggy for the likings of many. The higher ups at codies should have learned the lesson with DiRT 4 and not pushed the game out so early. Seems like they didn't 

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