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PJTierney

 

Message added by PJTierney

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i think the thing is not to get confused with is wanting all cars in same class to drive the same ! its not drive the same. characteristics need to be realistic . just the time differences balanced. no one wants every car to drive the same. that would make for a boring game. as it sits currently for eg its just pick the quickest car in the class. go. making the others in the same class irrelevant. so 50 cars total for eg yet only 10 are driven because of the time differences. which makes 90 percent of the cars in dirt pointless. which is a shame.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, dgeesi0 said:

i think the thing is not to get confused with is wanting all cars in same class to drive the same ! its not drive the same. characteristics need to be realistic . just the time differences balanced. no one wants every car to drive the same. that would make for a boring game. as it sits currently for eg its just pick the quickest car in the class. go. making the others in the same class irrelevant. so 50 cars total for eg yet only 10 are driven because of the time differences. which makes 90 percent of the cars in dirt pointless. which is a shame.

I understand your point and partially agree with it, but i think realistic characteristics and balanced time differences are mutually exclusive options, ie, you can't have both at the same time... that brings us to the 2 approches PJ talked, realistic cars OR balanced cars.

Edited by Opassac

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, dgeesi0 said:

i think the thing is not to get confused with is wanting all cars in same class to drive the same ! its not drive the same. characteristics need to be realistic . just the time differences balanced. no one wants every car to drive the same. that would make for a boring game. as it sits currently for eg its just pick the quickest car in the class. go. making the others in the same class irrelevant. so 50 cars total for eg yet only 10 are driven because of the time differences. which makes 90 percent of the cars in dirt pointless. which is a shame.

Exactly, we want quirky and unique cars but we also want a way to make the quirky cars actually viable to drive in some scenarios.

I think the absolute BEST solution, on top of white/black lists for clubs, is to find a way to really cement their strengths and weaknesses. I don't mind any car being significantly faster than the rest at (as an example) Monte Carlo, but that car should also then struggle at other locations and be slower. Yes I'm generalizing and gameifying things, but this is how they actually worked in real life.

Think of the classic 037 and Quattro battles - 037 ran away on tarmac and heavier gravel, but the Quattro dominated in bad conditions and the really loose stuff. So if someone sets up a Germany & Spain 2 event championship, I expect the Quattro to get stomped on. But if someone sets up a Germany - Spain - Sweden - Wales - Australia 5 event champ, I would hope the 037 pulls ahead early and the Quattro can naturally claw its way back in the final 3 rallies.

I have no idea how to exactly implement this in game, but I think that idea should at least be a general guiding principle to class design. We don't want standardized and equal cars, we want a competitive class across a championship. Trying to balance location by location would create more problems than it'd fix, but trying to balance the overall time/strengths/weaknesses over an entire championship seems more doable to me.

Edited by Mike Dee
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3 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

Exactly, we want quirky and unique cars but we also want a way to make the quirky cars actually viable to drive in some scenarios.

I think the absolute BEST solution, on top of white/black lists for clubs, is to find a way to really cement their strengths and weaknesses. I don't mind any car being significantly faster than the rest at (as an example) Monte Carlo, but that car should also then struggle at other locations and be slower. Yes I'm generalizing and gameifying things, but this is how they actually worked in real life.

Think of the classic 037 and Quattro battles - 037 ran away on tarmac and heavier gravel, but the Quattro dominated in bad conditions and the really loose stuff.

I have no idea how to exactly implement this in game, but I think that idea should at least be a general guiding principle to class design. We don't want standardized and equal cars, we want a competitive class across a championship. Trying to balance location by location would create more problems than it'd fix, but trying to balance the overall time/strengths/weaknesses over an entire championship seems more doable to me.

The quattro/037 battle would be great to see and it's doable with multiclass clubs... But there are cars wich are slower in real life in every conditions, and, again in my opinion, they should stay the same in the game... i wouldn't want to see the citroen DS be as fast as the mini just for the sake of balance.

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Having car X vs car Y struggle in another location doesn't solve the "balance" issue per say, and is another layer of complexity that existed to an extent IRL.  The reason is not every rally/run consists of multiple events that would balance things.  Also things did not completely balance out IRL with dominant cars between events either.   So I think sticking with the black/white list solution, and if time permits a ballast/restrictor solution for eSports to better show off the game is probably the way to go.   I disagree with DG on forcing vehicles to do basically the same times overall, unless it's a specific option chosen for a championship or eSports event. 

Even now in the car restricted dailies the problem of dominance magically disappears, that's white listing at play.  I'm quite sure if there was a way to black/white list we wouldn't only get Citroen 2000CC and Lancia Delta club events, but instead the slower cars would get used.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Opassac said:

But there are cars wich are slower in real life in every conditions,

Oh you are 100% right and in those scenarios we need car lists for clubs specifically to deal with that. We can't fix everything, some cars from the very beginning of a rally generation are obviously going to be slower than the last few cars of that generation - that is literally the point of them evolving and new models being built. But I think there is definitely room within the classes themselves to craft a more competitive, back-and-forth style experience from these cars.

Maybe you don't go for the different location strengths/weaknesses and instead go for the performance/durability approach where powerful cars are more fragile. There are ways to gameify this correctly to be fun while still letting the cars be themselves. Just a balancing act on a very fine line.

3 minutes ago, bn880 said:

The reason is not every rally/run consists of multiple events that would balance things. 

And that is completely OK. It isn't a perfect solution, but wasn't meant to be either. I think it's a decent idea when picturing the grand scope of things because you can't really try to balance the performance of all championship combos, especially less common ones (in DR2) like all tarmac champs.

I think we all agree the black/white list is pretty much mandatory going into any future games. BOP is an interesting idea, but it really only feels applicable to eSports. Majority of drivers may be competitive, but they aren't "let's go face off against Joona and Micky" competitive so I think focusing on completely leveling the playing field with ballasts/restrictors only solves a very narrow channel of the problem.

BN you know as well as I do we can take basically any car from any class and make it HIGHLY competitive against 95% of drivers - and this reason right here is why I don't see ballast helping that much. Below top tier racing, the limitations aren't the vehicles it is the driver 9 times out of 10. Now if they are going to give club directors full ballast/restrictor control too so they can modify them on a championship basis, that could be a completely different and cool thing to add.

Edited by Mike Dee
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Posted (edited)

its not so much of making the cars times identical its so they are close enough to make it competitive in the classes they in. some cars in dirt rally games are almost the same as one or two classes up times wize in the same class. lancia delta for eg. can win stages 10 secs plus any car in its own class. shouldnt really be that big a gap. especially in similar specced cars. in the same class.

Edited by dgeesi0

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mike Dee said:

so I think focusing on completely leveling the playing field with ballasts/restrictors only solves a very narrow channel of the problem

 

I agree with most of your post, and yes the ballast or restrictor would be very specific and have a narrow but perhaps necessary application.   Overall I believe in the last couple days, we are all in agreement except perhaps DG.  (class freedom/black/white list solves most issues, resolve narrow remaining issues with other means)

 

@dgeesi0 I think making the times artificially close is not much better than artificially identical for the sake of this argument.  It is Ok only in very specific scenarios in my opinion.  I wouldn't want to see the cars permanently affected like this.   no offense, and I realize you have a right to your POV.

Edited by bn880
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my opinion is mine doesnt mean its right. just would prefer closer competition in car classes than what currently is. most of my fav cars have no chance of posting the top times because of it. so you end up driving faster cars just for the time differences. its great to see other peoples thoughts on this . :classic_cool:

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2 minutes ago, bn880 said:

but perhaps necessary application.

Oh definitely a necessary thing IMO even if some don't like the idea. I don't want it applied to 90% of the game honestly, but where it does serve a purpose it solves a MASSIVE issue - well massive to me. I want to see variety, I want to see individual driver preferences for certain car characteristics shine through, and ballasts/restricts fix perfectly.

I think DG is even in agreement for the most part; we all want thing to at least have a chance to be competitive but we also want to them to be unique. Now we are just arguing discussing how to pull it off 😅

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1 hour ago, Mike Dee said:

Below top tier racing, the limitations aren't the vehicles it is the driver 9 times out of 10.

This is true.

Car balancing has the biggest effect on esports players. Everybody below that is pretty much not driving optimally to begin with, so no matter what car they pick there's more to give. That's why you see a little more variety in Dailies compared to Time Trial as people are just picking a car and doing a run instead of optimising their time over several months.

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17 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

That's why you see a little more variety in Dailies

DS21, 240z, Manta 400 gang checking in 💪

It's honestly one of my favorite things to do; grab an under-loved car and see if I can crack top 10 with it in the dailies. The variety gives the game so much more life as you work out the quirks to each car and two runs on the same stage can be WILDLY different in how you have to attack with different cars.

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Posted (edited)

The Stratos won the championship 3 years in a row, the Delta scored 6 consecutive wins from '87 to '92. These cars in particular are true rally legends and the game clearly reflects that and it's fine, that's how it should be. As it was said before, most people prefer historic accuracy over artificially balanced classes.

The problem is, when these cars are created it's not immediately clear how dominant they would be compared to the other cars in the class. Once it starts showing on the leaderboards, they can't just roll out a patch and nerf them as they'd have to clear the leaderboards as well. It must be quite difficult to code the right amount of 'legend genes' into these cars without making them too OP. 

I like the challenge to take the 'underdog' and see where I can place it, also because I wouldn't take WRs with the rockets anyway :classic_happy:

Edited by richie
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7 minutes ago, Mike Dee said:

DS21, 240z, Manta 400 gang checking in 💪

It's honestly one of my favorite things to do; grab an under-loved car and see if I can crack top 10 with it in the dailies. The variety gives the game so much more life as you work out the quirks to each car and two runs on the same stage can be WILDLY different in how you have to attack with different cars.

I take exactly the same approach, i know i'm far from the fastest guys out there, although i can consistently place myself in the top 10% in daylies, so i try to have fun with those underdog cars and, by doing so, i rise my own ego by saying to myself i was faster using a slow car than most of the others guys (although eons of time away from the top guys, offcourse) 😄...

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Posted (edited)

"

The Stratos won the championship 3 years in a row, the Delta scored 6 consecutive wins from '87 to '92. These cars in particular are truly rally legends and the game clearly reflects that and it's fine, that's how it should be. As it was said before, most people prefer historic accuracy over artificially balanced classes.

The problem is, when these cars are created it's not immediately clear how dominant they would be compared to the other cars in the class. Once it starts showing on the leaderboards, they can't just roll out a patch and nerf them as they'd have to clear the leaderboards as well. It must be quite difficult to code the right amount of 'legend genes' into these cars without making too OP. 

I like the challenge to take the 'underdog' and see where I can place it, also because I wouldn't take WRs with the rockets anyway :classic_happy:"

 

 

exactly... Adding to that, of course the WR chasers will use the fastest car dragging all the others behind. The higher prevalence of a car in the top pages of the timetables doesn't directly correlate to the difference in times between that car and the others.... 

Edited by Opassac
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Posted (edited)

How about the idea to make the faster cars more prone to getting damage and also lets say that the delta and metro getting the same kind of damage but it punishes the delta more? Have them more difficult to drive but still keep their "soul", if thats even possible? And another example is the 2000cc class, group them up in 2 with older and newer cars and allow for multiclass if the club owners want.

 

Edited by somethingthing
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2 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

my opinion is mine doesnt mean its right. just would prefer closer competition in car classes than what currently is. most of my fav cars have no chance of posting the top times because of it. so you end up driving faster cars just for the time differences. its great to see other peoples thoughts on this . :classic_cool:

Your opinion is as right as others, there isn't a right or wrong opinion in this matter... it's all a question of personal taste, and both ways have pros/cons and can be implemented... It's great we can all discuss these questions with the final objective of helping to improve what is already a great franchise... but... pleaseeeeeee, no BoP 😄 😄 😄

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I would like to keep the realistic performance attributes of the cars, however there could be an option in Dailies, Clubs etc to assign the Player a random car from that Class, you might get a quick car and be under pressure, as it were, to do the performance of the car justice, or you might get a slower car and have the challenge to get it further up the leaderboard than it's performance merits.

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34 minutes ago, Dunoon1956 said:

I would like to keep the realistic performance attributes of the cars, however there could be an option in Dailies, Clubs etc to assign the Player a random car from that Class, you might get a quick car and be under pressure, as it were, to do the performance of the car justice, or you might get a slower car and have the challenge to get it further up the leaderboard than it's performance merits.

I really like the idea about getting a random car assigned in community events!

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48 minutes ago, Dunoon1956 said:

I would like to keep the realistic performance attributes of the cars, however there could be an option in Dailies, Clubs etc to assign the Player a random car from that Class, you might get a quick car and be under pressure, as it were, to do the performance of the car justice, or you might get a slower car and have the challenge to get it further up the leaderboard than it's performance merits.

Another look at this, I like the idea.

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6 hours ago, PJTierney said:

I think multiclass and/or blacklisting particular cars in Clubs would be a solution that keeps everybody happy 🙂 

Jup, this is exactly what i ment a few posts back of me, so you can go for example go with group A + 2000cc, but without the mid/late 2000cc cars. 

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I would like to keep the realistic performance attributes of the cars Ꝏ 

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A decent fix would be to have multi-class events, but allow event creators to specify exactly which cars go into which class. The faster cars in H2 could mix it up with the slower cars from H3. The 6R4 could be matched up with any number of 4WD cars. The 90s Group A cars might be good up against the RGT cars. Could even let the event creator name the classes themselves. I’m copyrighting ‘RWD Deathtrap Class’

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Just now, merseyxshore said:

A decent fix would be to have multi-class events, but allow event creators to specify exactly which cars go into which class. The faster cars in H2 could mix it up with the slower cars from H3. The 6R4 could be matched up with any number of 4WD cars. The 90s Group A cars might be good up against the RGT cars. Could even let the event creator name the classes themselves. I’m copyrighting ‘RWD Deathtrap Class’

That's exactly it, imagine creating a custom challenge class in your club for say all kinds of 2WD vehicles, so both RWD and FWD.  Would be kinda neat I think.  (just one example, but that is a real life scenario as well)

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rallying against open classes would be cool. especially in slower cars beating faster ones.:classic_cool:

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