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chukonu said:
Hatward said:
dgeesi0 said:
[...]
Don't feel too bad - we're wiping times from leaderboards today.

We're looking at a way to block the functionality of hacks completely, but cheat detection is working. I used to catch ~10 cheaters a day, who were all banned. Only caught 4 this week.

I'm getting support but we're trying to keep several plates spinning at the moment.
Obviously I am not a game developer but I never understood why keeping cheats out of games is so hard. Wouldn't you just, during the connection with the server, check the integrity of the relevant files with a hash? How could they circumvent that?
I assure if it was easy, we wouldn't be having this problem. ;)

I'd rather not go into it in detail because the more I say, the easier it will be to develop a work around.

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dwkGravey said:
Rygar86 said:
I still cant work out why people who already play Dirt Rally on PC are THAT excited about a console version. What am I missing here? 

Other than it perhaps making it easier to play it in your lounge room I dont see what the big deal is. Dont get me wrong I think its great its coming to console and that more people in world will be rallying, as they all should :smile: 
More platforms = more sales = more rally!
Pretty much this, DiRT Rally was a significant change in approach as a more realistic simulator than the DiRT series and the danger is it becomes a niche PC oneoff. Seeing its success and wider release on consoles is a very good sign of more to come!

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KevM said:
Rygar86 said:
I still cant work out why people who already play Dirt Rally on PC are THAT excited about a console version. What am I missing here? 

Other than it perhaps making it easier to play it in your lounge room I dont see what the big deal is. Dont get me wrong I think its great its coming to console and that more people in the world will be rallying, as they all should :smile: 
I have a fairly borderline PC, the game runs fine on a smaller monitor, but is right on the edge when it comes to a 1080p screen.  I could either upgrade the PC or just take the easy option and buy a PS4 and wheel for a similar cost.  The attraction of console for me is, the integrity of the competition, because competition is what the game revolves around!
You could get a used previous generation mid to hi-end GPU for a fraction of the price of a console, that would quite comfortably run DiRT at 1080p. You could probably get a HD7870 or a GTX660 for arround 100€, maybe even cheaper

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chukonu said:
Obviously I am not a game developer but I never understood why keeping cheats out of games is so hard. Wouldn't you just, during the connection with the server, check the integrity of the relevant files with a hash? How could they circumvent that?
Since I had the unfortunate displeasure of having to deal with a swarm of cheaters in another game, I do know that there's such a thing known as "Cheat Engine" and it basically changes the data in the RAM, therefore a hash check won't do anything as the game files are never changed. Hacks do alter the game files usually, but cheats aka trainers... most of the time don't, which is the biggest issue.

I wish I could do something to help fighting with those cheaters, other than screenshoting leaderboards. Then again, I don't know that much myself. In any case, game without a solid MP and cheaters swarming leaderboards will die quickly on its own, maybe that's one of the reasons they want to move on to a DiRT Rally 2/DiRT 4.
Didzis said:
You could get a used previous generation mid to hi-end GPU for a fraction of the price of a console, that would quite comfortably run DiRT at 1080p. You could probably get a HD7870 or a GTX660 for arround 100€, maybe even cheaper
I got my GTX670 about a year ago for 120€, so a used GTX680 (which is basically a GTX770 as well) should be going for about 140€ if you look well.

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KevM said:
dgeesi0 said:
 in 6 months time or a year it will be pointless playing if competing for times as it will just be a wall of cheats !
I don't see it taking that long, I've lost tons of appetite over the past 3-4 weeks, that's despite this being hands-down, the best game to ever happen to my favorite driving game genre!  Disappointment is an understatement....
 
We're not long past early access and I cant concentrate for the length of a stage now without my mind wandering to the inevitability of my really nice run easily being top 15, BUT, 40+ seconds off the pace of  No.1....

I wouldnt even care so much, if the game was casual or easy going, but you really do have to commit time and effort into DiRT to pull off a proper flyer.  This makes is a thousand times worse, if some lazy feck hotkeys his handling into DiRT2 and casually saunters through a stage to a top-spot.


To finish on a positive, for me to even be considering buying a console is a clear indication of how  good I think this game is and how much I enjoy playing it. 
That's exactly how I've felt lately about the game. Some of the stages I've been running in various cars as I enjoy them so much putting in some great runs and to find the top 5-8 full of cheaters has really annoyed me lately. When running stages I like and know and doing them to purposely try and set a fast time or wr it's really disheartening to see so many people in front. 

I appreciate though that with the console launch due very soon that priorities lie elsewhere at the minute. 

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dgeesi0 said:

1. no real mp. mp rallying would of made this such a legendary game. it is needed in a day and age when mp is basically gaming.
It would be great to have decent mp rallying but mp sim racing remains a niche compared with other genre. Back when rFactor was launched in 2005 the belief was that opponents would be predominantly human but it takes a lot more organisation and driver management than an fps title. Where you can join when you like, boot out cheaters and carry on. In sim racing you all have to start at the same time and if someone is an idiot it is pretty much race over for the victims.

Sales of products like Assetto Corsa remain predominantly single player and that will only increase with their console deployment. It is where the vast majority of sales are even if the most enthusiastic and vocal groups on forums are racing exclusively online.

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chukonu said:
Obviously I am not a game developer but I never understood why keeping cheats out of games is so hard. Wouldn't you just, during the connection with the server, check the integrity of the relevant files with a hash? How could they circumvent that?
Since I had the unfortunate displeasure of having to deal with a swarm of cheaters in another game, I do know that there's such a thing known as "Cheat Engine" and it basically changes the data in the RAM, therefore a hash check won't do anything as the game files are never changed. Hacks do alter the game files usually, but cheats aka trainers... most of the time don't, which is the biggest issue.

I wish I could do something to help fighting with those cheaters, other than screenshoting leaderboards. Then again, I don't know that much myself. In any case, game without a solid MP and cheaters swarming leaderboards will die quickly on its own, maybe that's one of the reasons they want to move on to a DiRT Rally 2/DiRT 4.
You guys have been a HUGE help already. Hoping to give you the results you're looking for soon.

Alongside the Steam Leaderboard clean up we're looking at putting the data into the Steam Client, so you can see times without the need to finish a Custom Event.

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Hatward said:
dgeesi0 said:
yes the two main floors with this game is

1. no real mp. mp rallying would of made this such a legendary game. it is needed in a day and age when mp is basically gaming.

2. cheating ! cheating for me destroys alot of fun for me in this game. some are blatant still at top after along while. i dont find that acceptable.
some are less obvious but do cheat and its not hard to work out who. now...what kinda grinds me is how deep are codemasters going to focus on stopping the cheats. if im honest (and dont take this wrong i love you guys this is the best rally game ever !) cheating never really gets solved or cutting in any of the dirt games i ever played.

i would love to say differently but it has never been solved.same hacks cheats are based off old tech from earlier dirt games.like dirt 3.

feel sorry for hatward as it seems he is maybe on his own juggling trying to sort cheats out and kinda losing. many top 5 now on many tracks are from cheats. some been there for month two months. in a new game not really acceptable.

most here who are fast and legit know the times possible. rally driver or not. if one of us do a perfect lap run. no one is 20 secs quicker ! no one not the stig not f1 champion. no one.

now as this game gets on a little and if you look at it its not really fully out yet ! this needs to be stopped ! more effort into stopping cheats and analyzing them. in 6 months time or a year it will be pointless playing if competing for times as it will just be a wall of cheats !

so please. get some more staff people on it. do something about this please.hatward cant cope with it sorry. for saying that but its there in black and white in the time tables.
Don't feel too bad - we're wiping times from leaderboards today.

We're looking at a way to block the functionality of hacks completely, but cheat detection is working. I used to catch ~10 cheaters a day, who were all banned. Only caught 4 this week.

I'm getting support but we're trying to keep several plates spinning at the moment.
sorry if it came across a bit dickish hatward. you do a great job. it just gets frustrating . i do understand you busy.

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dgeesi0 said:
Hatward said:
dgeesi0 said:
yes the two main floors with this game is

1. no real mp. mp rallying would of made this such a legendary game. it is needed in a day and age when mp is basically gaming.

2. cheating ! cheating for me destroys alot of fun for me in this game. some are blatant still at top after along while. i dont find that acceptable.
some are less obvious but do cheat and its not hard to work out who. now...what kinda grinds me is how deep are codemasters going to focus on stopping the cheats. if im honest (and dont take this wrong i love you guys this is the best rally game ever !) cheating never really gets solved or cutting in any of the dirt games i ever played.

i would love to say differently but it has never been solved.same hacks cheats are based off old tech from earlier dirt games.like dirt 3.

feel sorry for hatward as it seems he is maybe on his own juggling trying to sort cheats out and kinda losing. many top 5 now on many tracks are from cheats. some been there for month two months. in a new game not really acceptable.

most here who are fast and legit know the times possible. rally driver or not. if one of us do a perfect lap run. no one is 20 secs quicker ! no one not the stig not f1 champion. no one.

now as this game gets on a little and if you look at it its not really fully out yet ! this needs to be stopped ! more effort into stopping cheats and analyzing them. in 6 months time or a year it will be pointless playing if competing for times as it will just be a wall of cheats !

so please. get some more staff people on it. do something about this please.hatward cant cope with it sorry. for saying that but its there in black and white in the time tables.
Don't feel too bad - we're wiping times from leaderboards today.

We're looking at a way to block the functionality of hacks completely, but cheat detection is working. I used to catch ~10 cheaters a day, who were all banned. Only caught 4 this week.

I'm getting support but we're trying to keep several plates spinning at the moment.
sorry if it came across a bit dickish hatward. you do a great job. it just gets frustrating . i do understand you busy.
Not at all! All good. :)

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Hatward said:
Alongside the Steam Leaderboard clean up we're looking at putting the data into the Steam Client, so you can see times without the need to finish a Custom Event. 
That's great stuff, cause it's really not much fun having to go up the Pikes Peak only to check which position I am xD Any plans on making the dirtgame.com profile page having an actual working leaderboard instead of that rather... strange inaccurate graph?

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In RSRBR all the important archives are password protected. I know that DR works in a different way, but maybe something along those lines could help. But then again, even passwords can be broken... Oh, how I hate cheaters! Anyway, keep up the good work @Hatward!

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The advantage DiRT Rally has with its console deployment over Assetto Corsa is that they are coming from different roots. Assetto Corsa's predecessor was an uncompromising hardcore title. There is a LOT of resistance within the hardcore community to console versions because they believe that the development of the product will be watered down. Kunos has always stated they intended to target a wider audience, presumably necessary to make the product viable but this gets lost in the neanderthal grunts of derision.

It is good to see the support here for consoles, maybe the community here is a bit more appreciative as we haven't had a more serious rally sim for quite some time?

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Didzis said:
You could get a used previous generation mid to hi-end GPU for a fraction of the price of a console, that would quite comfortably run DiRT at 1080p. You could probably get a HD7870 or a GTX660 for arround 100€, maybe even cheaper


I actually think the CPU is my bottleneck, even though my GPU aint that awesome.

It can 'nearly' cope with doing everything 'nearly' well, but just falls at the last

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Hatward said:

Alongside the Steam Leaderboard clean up we're looking at putting the data into the Steam Client, so you can see times without the need to finish a Custom Event.
That sounds great!

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chukonu said:
Obviously I am not a game developer but I never understood why keeping cheats out of games is so hard. Wouldn't you just, during the connection with the server, check the integrity of the relevant files with a hash? How could they circumvent that?
Since I had the unfortunate displeasure of having to deal with a swarm of cheaters in another game, I do know that there's such a thing known as "Cheat Engine" and it basically changes the data in the RAM, therefore a hash check won't do anything as the game files are never changed. Hacks do alter the game files usually, but cheats aka trainers... most of the time don't, which is the biggest issue.

I believe a dilemma for developers is how hard to lock down the game from anything running in the background. EasyAntiCheat works by white listing products. It does mean though that running any utilities like a gear indicator, android dashboard, simcommander wheel software and general OS stuff like anti virus or recording software all need to be approved and of course they are constantly changing and new products coming out.

So you get your shiny new handbrake and then find it won't work until the devs update their anti cheat software.

Unfortunately it needs to be done by exception rather than identifying the bad things as you will always be behind the cheaters with the latter.

If you are iRacing with an exclusive multiplayer service it is no brainer, if you have a product which has say 15% of its customers playing multiplayer then it is a tougher call.

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Some info on the legend edition, includes either rally or rallycross mini unlocked and upgraded plus a unique engineer. Also a 90 minute McCrae documentary which was speculated on a while ago

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BrySkye said:
Rygar86 said:
I still cant work out why people who already play Dirt Rally on PC are THAT excited about a console version. What am I missing here? 

Other than it perhaps making it easier to play it in your lounge room I dont see what the big deal is. Dont get me wrong I think its great its coming to console and that more people in world will be rallying, as they all should :smile: 
I think most of those people are just excited about the new content coming to the PC version when the console one is released?
There's also a few people here cant play the PC version, like @tbtstt , who have been waiting a long time.
Some people can't play DR at 60fps on their PCs, but already own a XB1/PS4, so it's a way for them to do that without an expensive upgrade.
And some just want a physical version. Being on the community test team, I intend to get the steelbook version (if it still actually happens) and leave it sealed as a memento to myself of something I was involved in.

Thanks @BrySkye (and others) for educating me, I had not thought of most of those reasons. Main thing for me is that it means good things for the PC version, especially if it does well and also that it means heaps more people will be rallying across the world, many of them discovering rally through this game and thats a very cool thing.

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Hatward said
Alongside the Steam Leaderboard clean up we're looking at putting the data into the Steam Client, so you can see times without the need to finish a Custom Event.
@Hatward this is brilliant to hear! I have been keen for this for some time, please make this happen!

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Rygar86 said:
Hatward said
Alongside the Steam Leaderboard clean up we're looking at putting the data into the Steam Client, so you can see times without the need to finish a Custom Event.
@Hatward this is brilliant to hear! I have been keen for this for some time, please make this happen!
Literally working on it right now. :) Once I'm done with this spreadsheet it'll go to a very smart man on our PC Compliance team who will hook it up to your Steam Clients.

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excellent ! B)..............................................................................................................................

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KevM said:
I don't see it taking that long, I've lost tons of appetite over the past 3-4 weeks, that's despite this being hands-down, the best game to ever happen to my favorite driving game genre!  Disappointment is an understatement....
 
We're not long past early access and I cant concentrate for the length of a stage now without my mind wandering to the inevitability of my really nice run easily being top 15, BUT, 40+ seconds off the pace of  No.1....

I wouldnt even care so much, if the game was casual or easy going, but you really do have to commit time and effort into DiRT to pull off a proper flyer.  This makes is a thousand times worse, if some lazy feck hotkeys his handling into DiRT2 and casually saunters through a stage to a top-spot.


To finish on a positive, for me to even be considering buying a console is a clear indication of how  good I think this game is and how much I enjoy playing it. 

Yeah I hear ya, while I'm not fast enough to get a top 15 couple nights ago I was running my league rally and set by far a new PB on Hämelahti which was close to top 100.  This was when the league was still broken with basically no repairs and the car was probably in about 70% condition or so.  When I checked the leaderboards I looked up full stats and the top 4 guys were well over a minute faster than Porkhammer who was ranked 5th...  Yeah I don't think so.  Good to hear it's getting worked on though!

Here's the run, I've lost interest in career/money so I think I'm going to start hot lapping try and set some top 100 or top 50 times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxOY4wyzHC0


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Hatward said:
Literally working on it right now. :) Once I'm done with this spreadsheet it'll go to a very smart man on our PC Compliance team who will hook it up to your Steam Clients.
   @Hatward You are a scholar and a gentleman and I thank you.

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Rygar86 said:
Hatward said:
Literally working on it right now. :) Once I'm done with this spreadsheet it'll go to a very smart man on our PC Compliance team who will hook it up to your Steam Clients.
   @Hatward You are a scholar and a gentleman and I thank you.
He also commands armies of giant killer bees, to exact vengeance upon hackers by having them ambush the offenders by crawling into their pillowcases.

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