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dgeesi0 said:
its crazy how many people watch video car crashes.almost as much as the actual racing/rallying.
This. Once I've made a big mistake and gone off badly, the last thing I want to do is watch it back!

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KickUp said:
Accro2008 said:
@KickUp Do you know if the steam "pre-download" will be available today ?
Still aiming for it but we are trying to fix a few more bits before we do it.
Great, Thank you for the quick anwser.

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dgeesi0 said:
watch my video at the end with the escort mk2.i thought that crash was brilliant :D


KickUp said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
SamRWD said:
The ONLY grip (;)) I have with crashes is damage other than visual. I hope on hardest level, the one you have to unlock,  crashes will be less forgiving. I saw people hit trees with a front of the car pretty hard, they were able to finish the stage with no problems. Also body deformation is really hard to do, would rather have other aspect of D4 refined. For me they are more than good enough. Maybe RX guys would like more due to the nature of RX races. 
And that's why 15 years old games (ie all gModor based ones) can show more deformation than than D4?
D4 cars are prone to brake apart rather then deformate.  But if there is no enough energy, then damage is barely visible (for example after roll).
Even D:R has more deformation than D4 shown on recent videos. Moreover deformation in D:R could be extended by using community mod. It proves that better deformation is in place, ready to use. But for some reasons suppressed by developers. And please don't say it's because of manufacturers demands.
It's because of manufacturer demands.

I agree our damage systems could be improved but it is all confined by the demands of the licensing agreements. I'd argue cars take more damage in DiRT than they do in many other current licensed racing titles but every time we release a game the manufacturers get stricter about damage not more lenient.
Than it's sad that gaming industry is going to be slave of industries even if realistic/convincing representation should be main goal for both sides. This way you cannot create rally game. It's para-rallying. Who wants to be a part of para-rallying?
At the end, it's matter of signing proper agreement. Otherwise product which would be the simulation, looks like a toy :(

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MaXyMsrpl said:
dgeesi0 said:
watch my video at the end with the escort mk2.i thought that crash was brilliant :D


KickUp said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
SamRWD said:
The ONLY grip (;)) I have with crashes is damage other than visual. I hope on hardest level, the one you have to unlock,  crashes will be less forgiving. I saw people hit trees with a front of the car pretty hard, they were able to finish the stage with no problems. Also body deformation is really hard to do, would rather have other aspect of D4 refined. For me they are more than good enough. Maybe RX guys would like more due to the nature of RX races. 
And that's why 15 years old games (ie all gModor based ones) can show more deformation than than D4?
D4 cars are prone to brake apart rather then deformate.  But if there is no enough energy, then damage is barely visible (for example after roll).
Even D:R has more deformation than D4 shown on recent videos. Moreover deformation in D:R could be extended by using community mod. It proves that better deformation is in place, ready to use. But for some reasons suppressed by developers. And please don't say it's because of manufacturers demands.
It's because of manufacturer demands.

I agree our damage systems could be improved but it is all confined by the demands of the licensing agreements. I'd argue cars take more damage in DiRT than they do in many other current licensed racing titles but every time we release a game the manufacturers get stricter about damage not more lenient.
Than it's sad that gaming industry is going to be slave of industries even if realistic representation should be main goal to both sides. This way you cannot create rally game. It's para-rallying. Who wants to be a part of para-rallying?
At the end, it's matter of signing proper agreement. Otherwise product which would be the simulation, looks like a toy :(


But would you rather have fictional cars with full damage? I wouldn't.


And I don't think manufacturers gives a rats arse about getting their cars properly damaged when signing an agreement.

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Because I'm simracer for almost 20 years; yes: I would chose proper physics simulation over real manufacturer name on the car label.
What is the point of driving Subaru if it doesn't behave like its equivalent from real life? None - it's not the Subaru anymore.

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MaXyMsrpl said:
dgeesi0 said:
watch my video at the end with the escort mk2.i thought that crash was brilliant :D


KickUp said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
SamRWD said:
The ONLY grip (;)) I have with crashes is damage other than visual. I hope on hardest level, the one you have to unlock,  crashes will be less forgiving. I saw people hit trees with a front of the car pretty hard, they were able to finish the stage with no problems. Also body deformation is really hard to do, would rather have other aspect of D4 refined. For me they are more than good enough. Maybe RX guys would like more due to the nature of RX races. 
And that's why 15 years old games (ie all gModor based ones) can show more deformation than than D4?
D4 cars are prone to brake apart rather then deformate.  But if there is no enough energy, then damage is barely visible (for example after roll).
Even D:R has more deformation than D4 shown on recent videos. Moreover deformation in D:R could be extended by using community mod. It proves that better deformation is in place, ready to use. But for some reasons suppressed by developers. And please don't say it's because of manufacturers demands.
It's because of manufacturer demands.

I agree our damage systems could be improved but it is all confined by the demands of the licensing agreements. I'd argue cars take more damage in DiRT than they do in many other current licensed racing titles but every time we release a game the manufacturers get stricter about damage not more lenient.
Than it's sad that gaming industry is going to be slave of industries even if realistic/convincing representation should be main goal for both sides. This way you cannot create rally game. It's para-rallying. Who wants to be a part of para-rallying?
At the end, it's matter of signing proper agreement. Otherwise product which would be the simulation, looks like a toy :(
So pretend you are Codemasters. A medium sized game developer. Imagine Audi or VW or Mitsubishi, giant car manufacturers. How much arguing are you willing to have with them? It is entirely their discretion whether you can have their car in the game, they can easily say no. I'd rather have real cars and minimal damage (which you won't even experience if you are good at the game huehue) than fictional cars and Beam.ng levels of damage.

Whilst I think it is hilarious they are so overprotective of their "virtual" cars, its the way it is.

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Personally realistic damage has never much bothered me. I like to think that I don't ever have to see a wrecked car if I drive well. 

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MaXyMsrpl said:
Because I'm simracer for almost 20 years; yes: I would chose proper physics simulation over real manufacturer name on the car label.
What is the point of driving Subaru if it doesn't behave like its equivalent from real life? None - it's not the Subaru anymore.
Nice placing yourself on a high horse being a "simracer" for 20 years.

This discussion was about the damage model being crippled by manufacturer demands, so why do you start talking about the physics simulation all of a sudden? Did Paul say that manufacturers demand "MOAR GRIP!"?

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MaXyMsrpl said:
Because I'm simracer for almost 20 years; yes: I would chose proper physics simulation over real manufacturer name on the car label.
What is the point of driving Subaru if it doesn't behave like its equivalent from real life? None - it's not the Subaru anymore.
Yup, I was surprised how much people of this thread care about licensed cars and tracks. It is very important of course and cool, bet for me the main thing in driving sims is the driving.

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With regards to liveries and team colors, when we buy new cars, is there always only one default livery or can we choose from a few?

And if we use team colors, can we have different colors for different cars?

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bogani said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
Because I'm simracer for almost 20 years; yes: I would chose proper physics simulation over real manufacturer name on the car label.
What is the point of driving Subaru if it doesn't behave like its equivalent from real life? None - it's not the Subaru anymore.
Nice placing yourself on a high horse being a "simracer" for 20 years.

This discussion was about the damage model being crippled by manufacturer demands, so why do you start talking about the physics simulation all of a sudden? Did Paul say that manufacturers demand "MOAR GRIP!"?
Because simulation is not about simulating tires physics only.
Speaking about manufacturers: what if, in regard to give licence for a car, some manufacturer would ask for fastest car in a pace? What if they want to place their car always on P1? Should CM take this deal?

Personally realistic damage has never much bothered me. I like to think that I don't ever have to see a wrecked car if I drive well. 
yeah.. and this is why YT is full of ridiculously looking crash videos (incl. ones attached to recent posts in this thread). A lot of people loves to watch replays. And they judge a title by what they see. Personally I cannot stand such unrealistic damage on videos. Even in case a tire model is stellar.

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KickUp said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
SamRWD said:
The ONLY grip (;)) I have with crashes is damage other than visual. I hope on hardest level, the one you have to unlock,  crashes will be less forgiving. I saw people hit trees with a front of the car pretty hard, they were able to finish the stage with no problems. Also body deformation is really hard to do, would rather have other aspect of D4 refined. For me they are more than good enough. Maybe RX guys would like more due to the nature of RX races. 
And that's why 15 years old games (ie all gModor based ones) can show more deformation than than D4?
D4 cars are prone to brake apart rather then deformate.  But if there is no enough energy, then damage is barely visible (for example after roll).
Even D:R has more deformation than D4 shown on recent videos. Moreover deformation in D:R could be extended by using community mod. It proves that better deformation is in place, ready to use. But for some reasons suppressed by developers. And please don't say it's because of manufacturers demands.
It's because of manufacturer demands.

I agree our damage systems could be improved but it is all confined by the demands of the licensing agreements. I'd argue cars take more damage in DiRT than they do in many other current licensed racing titles but every time we release a game the manufacturers get stricter about damage not more lenient.
@kickup So does this mean Dirt 4's damage has been nerfed compared to Dirt Rally?

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MaXyMsrpl said:
bogani said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
Because I'm simracer for almost 20 years; yes: I would chose proper physics simulation over real manufacturer name on the car label.
What is the point of driving Subaru if it doesn't behave like its equivalent from real life? None - it's not the Subaru anymore.
Nice placing yourself on a high horse being a "simracer" for 20 years.

This discussion was about the damage model being crippled by manufacturer demands, so why do you start talking about the physics simulation all of a sudden? Did Paul say that manufacturers demand "MOAR GRIP!"?
Because simulation is not about simulating tires physics only.
Speaking about manufacturers: what if, in regard to give licence for a car, some manufacturer would ask for fastest car in a pace? What if they want to place their car always on P1? Should CM take this deal?

Personally realistic damage has never much bothered me. I like to think that I don't ever have to see a wrecked car if I drive well. 
yeah.. and this is why YT is full of ridiculously looking crash videos (incl. ones attached to recent posts in this thread). A lot of people loves to watch replays. And they judge a title by what they see. Personally I cannot stand such unrealistic damage on videos. Even in case a tire model is stellar.
I would argue that the crash physics and physical damage modelling on dirt is by far better than any other 'sim' racing games out there, especially when it comes to cars leaving their wheels. You roll a car in forza or AC or project cars and it looks dreadful. And the damage doesn't look that great either

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What we have here is a battle between 2 different types of racer, sim and arcade.

Sim racers want 100% accuracy at all costs, arcade racers want a fun 'pick up and play' game that they can play with their mates.

And Codemasters are stuck in the middle with the impossible task of pleasing both sides, because neither side can seem to generate enough sales on it's own to justify making the game their way. So compromises have to made on both sides to get a game we can all play.

I didn't envy @Kick_Up in November when he had to explain to a group of mostly hardcore rally sim proponents why Codies had decided on what appeared to some of us as a backwards step when he introduced us to their new baby, DiRT4 (a lot of the people in that room were the people who had asked for D:R in the first place).

Is everything perfect in the game? No. You should see the list of stuff the beta testers have listed in the test forum for Codies to look at. Will Codies fix what they can? I believe so.

I know it sounds like fluff, but the DiRT team really do care about the game and us, their fans on both sides of the fence. They want to make the best rally game possible, for as many fans as possible. Surely the way they patched D:R as often as they did (with many of the patches requiring a reworking of major parts of the program) and Kick_Up's many responses to questions (often repeated) on here shows you how much it means to them to get it right.

I'm not asking you to give them a free pass when it comes to DiRT4, but I am asking some of you to stop fighting and at least wait until you've actually played the game before condemning them for supposed 'game breaking' failures.

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 It has been already stated that problem lays in licencing agreements. Why do you mess up with some nonexisting conflict between gamers and simracers? We have to play modes to cover diferent expectations

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Real life cars in offroad rally racing. It somehow feels more important to have the real deal for Rally, be it sim or arcade, than for tarmac racers. Maybe because of how actually little variety there has been in Rally, compared to like all these formulas, Le Mans, GT, Touring and other cars.

Besides, anyone raging on about damage models and destruction - have you even looked at "Blur", that combat racer or more destructive based NFS games? The car after dying is in damaged state model for like 1-3 seconds, and after respawning its fully fixed again! Even big names like THEM struggle with this.

Don't yell without actual research.

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You mean one of the particular conflicts is down to licensing issues, there are more than one going on in this thread, and a lot of them are down to different expectations from both sides.

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MaXyMsrpl said:
 It has been already stated that problem lays in licencing agreements. Why do you mess up with some nonexisting conflict between gamers and simracers? We have to play modes to cover diferent expectations


And you totally flipped that conversation about damage and licensing to insinuate the manufacturers are also demanding that the car handlin can't be too realistic.

No matter what anyone tells you will make you happy, you just keep on ranting about stuff. If something you rant about gets an explanation you just switch rant subject.


Just wait a few days til the game is out, give it a go, then you can tell everybody what's wrong. Again.

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bogani said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
 It has been already stated that problem lays in licencing agreements. Why do you mess up with some nonexisting conflict between gamers and simracers? We have to play modes to cover diferent expectations


And you totally flipped that conversation about damage and licensing to insinuate the manufacturers are also demanding that the car handlin can't be too realistic.

No matter what anyone tells you will make you happy, you just keep on ranting about stuff. If something you rant about gets an explanation you just switch rant subject.


Just wait a few days til the game is out, give it a go, then you can tell everybody what's wrong. Again.

I have a DR out of EA dejavu.






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The game is out this week so y'all will be able to see how good/bad it is and how close/far we got to your expectations and how realistic/unrealistic the damage/handling/environment/lighting/rendering/surfaces is.

So let's just... you know... relax (for now) :D



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Personally realistic damage has never much bothered me. I like to think that I don't ever have to see a wrecked car if I drive well. 

bogani said:
MaXyMsrpl said:
 It has been already stated that problem lays in licencing agreements. Why do you mess up with some nonexisting conflict between gamers and simracers? We have to play modes to cover diferent expectations


And you totally flipped that conversation about damage and licensing to insinuate the manufacturers are also demanding that the car handlin can't be too realistic.

No matter what anyone tells you will make you happy, you just keep on ranting about stuff. If something you rant about gets an explanation you just switch rant subject.

It's not me who flipped conversation. I issued damage, got response from @KickUp who pointed a finger in direction of car manufacturers. I commented it. I say no single word blaming players (arcade or simracing) for this situation. It's @SkiddyMcCrash  who first wrote: What we have here is a battle between 2 different types of racer, sim and arcade. Which is obviously not what we are talking about for the last 2 pages.
So again, please read carefully before you write. Especially offensive statements as you did to me.

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@KickUp When we can start reading D4 Reviews? I believe they will be out before D4 launch, yeah?

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