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I would prefer a proper dirt rally 2. A wrc title means to much arcade and fancy menus. Like dirt 4. If you want a sim and put 1000 hours in the game you want fast and simple menu structure.

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KevM said:
WRC 7 rubbished the 3 or 4 short stages per location theory.  Some of the longer ‘Epic’ stages for each location were fantastic.   They also had real-life areas stitched into the stages that you could clearly recognise from actual tv footage.

Someone mentioned older drivable cars instead of the ‘on rails’ WRC cars.  Have you watched a WRC round?  The car movement is phenomenal with 4 wheel mental powerslides everywhere.  I’d like that...
How many stagesper location does WRC7 have? It still has the problem of trying to make an entire rally out of a limited number of stages. I found that a bit boring on DR when you run a stage, then 5 minutes later you run a longer version of the same stage, then you run it again but backwards

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whatever game you make you want a simple menu structure . dirt 4s was pretty dire to do what you want but most car games are for some reason. many games dont make everything as simple as possible when its very important part of playing. the easier it is to use when you playing long periods the more likely you are going to play long periods ! especially if you need to use it often.

dirt rally was probably the easiest of the last few years to just get in and play. there were still some things which could be done better and easier. which would help gameplay. set ups being changed on the fly would be nice without having to restart round or game. spending hrs getting them right but having to restart the event over and over to apply was stupid.is stupid.

also better cam replays and positioning would be a dream. i can honestly say i pestered some of the devs for probably 10 years about this ! free cam please !

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KevM said:
WRC 7 rubbished the 3 or 4 short stages per location theory.  Some of the longer ‘Epic’ stages for each location were fantastic.   They also had real-life areas stitched into the stages that you could clearly recognise from actual tv footage.

Someone mentioned older drivable cars instead of the ‘on rails’ WRC cars.  Have you watched a WRC round?  The car movement is phenomenal with 4 wheel mental powerslides everywhere.  I’d like that...

Yeah, but didn't WRC7 consist of 1 short super special and then 3/4 short stages and those ones stitched together also made up the so called Epic stage? Still not convinced.



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  RallyDriven said:
If we did get a wrc game from codemasters, I’m torn between whether I’d want replicas of real stages or an improved your stage system. I think the best thing about your stage is you could actually have a proper rally of up to 22 stages like real wrc, rather than just running 1 or 2 stages per event cut up and reversed


Replicas would be ace, but as you say, they can't create many of them.

Your Stage would have to improve alot. If I were to do a 22 stage event in Wales as is in Dirt4 I would probably hang myself. 22 "unique" stages that all felt strangely like the exact same stage over and over and over :(

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bogani said:

Yeah, but didn't WRC7 consist of 1 short super special and then 3/4 short stages and those ones stitched together also made up the so called Epic stage? Still not convinced.



True, but at least most of the Epic Stages are reversed. Each rally has four stages: or one SSS, two SS and an ES, or three SS and an ES. In most cases the ES is the two or three SSs stiched together and run in reverse. Sweden, Finland and Wales are the only ES that are actually total repeats of the short SSs (who knows why they didn't reverse them). WRC7 has a total of 409,03km. If you take into account only the original SSs and the reversed ESs (i.e. excluding any repeated sections) then that "original, unrepeated" total goes down to 345,88km. That's quite a bit more than DR's 279,45km but far shy of SLRE's 495,6km. WRC6 had 404,8km and none of them were repeated or reversed.

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its not about how many there is its about how good each stage is !

id rather have 6 great stages then 30 bad ones !

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IDK if you ever played sims and Dirt rally ,how you could possibly put WRC7 on your list .Its utter shiiiiiiiit and no refErence to car handling .
Do some experiments and see.Also Hoover was commissioned to provide sound data ,  and honestly that tells the story of how much authenticity they care about.

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bogani said:

Yeah, but didn't WRC7 consist of 1 short super special and then 3/4 short stages and those ones stitched together also made up the so called Epic stage? Still not convinced.



True, but at least most of the Epic Stages are reversed. Each rally has four stages: or one SSS, two SS and an ES, or three SS and an ES. In most cases the ES is the two or three SSs stiched together and run in reverse. Sweden, Finland and Wales are the only ES that are actually total repeats of the short SSs (who knows why they didn't reverse them). WRC7 has a total of 409,03km. If you take into account only the original SSs and the reversed ESs (i.e. excluding any repeated sections) then that "original, unrepeated" total goes down to 345,88km. That's quite a bit more than DR's 279,45km but far shy of SLRE's 495,6km. WRC6 had 404,8km and none of them were repeated or reversed.
That’s quite interesting. Both DR and SLRE has Rally cross and pikes peak too.

Whether it’s a wrc game or another dirt game, it will be interesting to see if codemasters do your stage or go back to pre made stages. I seem to be in the few here that liked your stage, although I do agree that it needs improvement. The worst thing about it for me is often trying to find a flow or rhythm through places like wales and aus. 

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If they got hands on the WRC license, what if they somehow could utilize the data from the rather impressive Virtual Spectator WRC broadcasters used a few years back?

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dgeesi0 said:
its not about how many there is its about how good each stage is !

id rather have 6 great stages then 30 bad ones !
Exactly. SLRE has 64 excellent stages. WRC7 has 52 excellent stages. DR has 24 excellent stages. D4 has infinite boring stages.

This is the big problem of rally games. It takes lots of dev time to procure a rally stage. And the fact that resources are limited means you will always end up with a hotlap simulator instead of a rally simulator given the fact that the most competitive drivers will memorize the stages.

This is why it is essential that changing road conditions be implemented that cause changes in grip levels, so that no two runs on the same stage are identical. That way you reduce a lot of the hotlapping mentality. If that left 3 that everyone knows they can take at 90km/hr in 3rd gear had some uncertainty causing drivers to treat it as a slightly different turn each run, then we would have some good essence of rally which is feeling, interpreting and exploiting constantly changing grip levels.

I think Your Stage is a great idea, but it needs at a minimum 10x more tiles.

As far as real-world stages are concerned, Milestone was using some Unreal Engine 4 functionality in Gravel where they click on a satellite image and the terrain is instantly modeled in the game engine. The artists go in and add stuff and clean it up. This method, while probably not 100% accurate, could probably greatly speed up stage creation dev time. You click on the road, import it to the engine, go in and add trees and towns or whatever, add the pace notes, and there you go. A new stage. Bigmoon / Deep Silver is also doing this with Dakar 18.

Lots of people have suggested a combination of Your Stage and real stages. I think this is a good tradeoff. Four long (~10-15km), original, authentic stages complemented by an expanded Your Stage 2.0 would be a good tradeoff. And if the "click on map and play" functionality I alluded to above is as easy as it looks, that could be a great way to expand content either through free DLC or future iterations of the game.

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IDK if you ever played sims and Dirt rally ,how you could possibly put WRC7 on your list .Its utter shiiiiiiiit and no refErence to car handling .
Do some experiments and see.Also Hoover was commissioned to provide sound data ,  and honestly that tells the story of how much authenticity they care about.
140% agree mate, can't understand how people think WRC7 has good physics and sounds, it is just unplayable

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dgeesi0 said:
its not about how many there is its about how good each stage is !

id rather have 6 great stages then 30 bad ones !
Exactly. SLRE has 64 excellent stages. WRC7 has 52 excellent stages. DR has 24 excellent stages. D4 has infinite boring stages.

This is the big problem of rally games. It takes lots of dev time to procure a rally stage. And the fact that resources are limited means you will always end up with a hotlap simulator instead of a rally simulator given the fact that the most competitive drivers will memorize the stages.

This is why it is essential that changing road conditions be implemented that cause changes in grip levels, so that no two runs on the same stage are identical. That way you reduce a lot of the hotlapping mentality. If that left 3 that everyone knows they can take at 90km/hr in 3rd gear had some uncertainty causing drivers to treat it as a slightly different turn each run, then we would have some good essence of rally which is feeling, interpreting and exploiting constantly changing grip levels.

I think Your Stage is a great idea, but it needs at a minimum 10x more tiles.

As far as real-world stages are concerned, Milestone was using some Unreal Engine 4 functionality in Gravel where they click on a satellite image and the terrain is instantly modeled in the game engine. The artists go in and add stuff and clean it up. This method, while probably not 100% accurate, could probably greatly speed up stage creation dev time. You click on the road, import it to the engine, go in and add trees and towns or whatever, add the pace notes, and there you go. A new stage. Bigmoon / Deep Silver is also doing this with Dakar 18.

Lots of people have suggested a combination of Your Stage and real stages. I think this is a good tradeoff. Four long (~10-15km), original, authentic stages complemented by an expanded Your Stage 2.0 would be a good tradeoff. And if the "click on map and play" functionality I alluded to above is as easy as it looks, that could be a great way to expand content either through free DLC or future iterations of the game.
Not that easy, but that is how procedural stages for assetto Corsa are made, but the quality is crap compared to any other rally game.
You need a lot lot of tweaking to the stages generated that way to make them look nice.
WRC7 stages doesn't look similar to real stages, at least Rally Argentina, Los Gigantes in real life you actually cross a mountain and you just see rocks everywhere, Parque tematico the layout is the same but 3x wider, with unexistant water splashes, and the other short stages are rubbish also

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Not that easy, but that is how procedural stages for assetto Corsa are made, but the quality is **** compared to any other rally game.
You need a lot lot of tweaking to the stages generated that way to make them look nice.
WRC7 stages doesn't look similar to real stages, at least Rally Argentina, Los Gigantes in real life you actually cross a mountain and you just see rocks everywhere, Parque tematico the layout is the same but 3x wider, with unexistant water splashes, and the other short stages are rubbish also
Yeah, the SSS in WRC7 suck because they are direct ports of the ones from WRC6. They were not modified at all. It's the SS that they went into and narrowed and made more challenging. Sweden is the exception. Way too wide.

And since the stages are real in name only, obviously there will be discrepencies. At least they did put in some effort to roughly model the surroundings and the road like the real ones. For example, the jump in Fafe, the hairpins in Luceram - Col St Roch, the iconic jumps in Sweden and Finland, etc...

To use your example of the Argentina ES, 
Los Gigantes - Cantera El Cóndor is NOT Los Gigantes. It is Amboy - Santa Mónica and El Cóndor - Copina stiched together. So yeah, they had to name it SOMETHING, so they just picked Los Gigantes - Cantera El Cóndor. They could have just called it San Marcos Sierra, Giulio Césare, Tanti, whatever. It would still be Amboy and El Cóndor stitched together.

You're right about total random procedural generation. I don't think that's the way forward. The AC stages I have seen using that algorithm just look very odd. The only way to get lots of stages into a rally game is an improved Your Stage or a terrain importer from satellite images. Or hire more modelers/artists 
:p 

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Not that easy, but that is how procedural stages for assetto Corsa are made, but the quality is **** compared to any other rally game.
You need a lot lot of tweaking to the stages generated that way to make them look nice.
WRC7 stages doesn't look similar to real stages, at least Rally Argentina, Los Gigantes in real life you actually cross a mountain and you just see rocks everywhere, Parque tematico the layout is the same but 3x wider, with unexistant water splashes, and the other short stages are rubbish also
Yeah, the SSS in WRC7 suck because they are direct ports of the ones from WRC6. They were not modified at all. It's the SS that they went into and narrowed and made more challenging. Sweden is the exception. Way too wide.

And since the stages are real in name only, obviously there will be discrepencies. At least they did put in some effort to roughly model the surroundings and the road like the real ones. For example, the jump in Fafe, the hairpins in Luceram - Col St Roch, the iconic jumps in Sweden and Finland, etc...

To use your example of the Argentina ES, Los Gigantes - Cantera El Cóndor is NOT Los Gigantes. It is Amboy - Santa Mónica and El Cóndor - Copina stiched together. So yeah, they had to name it SOMETHING, so they just picked Los Gigantes - Cantera El Cóndor. They could have just called it San Marcos Sierra, Giulio Césare, Tanti, whatever. It would still be Amboy and El Cóndor stitched together.

You're right about total random procedural generation. I don't think that's the way forward. The AC stages I have seen using that algorithm just look very odd. The only way to get lots of stages into a rally game is an improved Your Stage or a terrain importer from satellite images. Or hire more modelers/artists  :p 
AC procedural stages can also take satellite data info from OpenStreetMap and generate the stages you want as their website says, and there is also an example

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I think your stage was a really brave effort. I like the idea, but it just didn't quite work. Maybe with some slight alterations it could be better. There is a possibility as well that Codies could use a kind of hybrid between your stage and bespoke stages, ie use your stage to generate and then tweak the stages to make them more individual. This would be great method for constructing long rally stages. My guess is that codies have a ton of ideas on how to improve your stage. It's a matter of whether they get a chance to implement them.

I spent some time thinking about the licence issues and found a couple of other bits of info on the net. My conclusion is that there is a strong chance that the licence has changed hands and therefore a strong chance that codies might have it. There are some hints from some time ago, but the real clue is that V rally announcement. I just can't see why they would release Vrally and a WRC game so close together in time. It seems to make no sense to me.

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Codies could use real life stages (as per those on Dirt Rally) then use Your Stage technology to create the basis of more stages, and then tweak them up to make each more unique. Or maybe use some of the tech to put scenery alongside a road lifted from the spectator tech?

One final thought: how about a combined WRC and WRX game? Would help bring new fans to both disciplines!

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This is also possibly wildly unrelated, but a Google search came up with this URL from 7 days ago: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dirtgame.com/login%3FreturnUrl%3D%252Fleagues%252Fleague%252F75729%252Fwrc-champions-17&ved=2ahUKEwiw_O6m-vDZAhVqLsAKHRO0BnwQFjAGegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0UY4pI_ysccpNiHSeSBACI

Which seems to be a league called WRC Champions 17. As I say probably unrelated and someone just called a league that?

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Codies could use real life stages (as per those on Dirt Rally) then use Your Stage technology to create the basis of more stages, and then tweak them up to make each more unique. Or maybe use some of the tech to put scenery alongside a road lifted from the spectator tech?

One final thought: how about a combined WRC and WRX game? Would help bring new fans to both disciplines!
Absolutely yes to the last one.

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Your Stage is nice concept on paper but IMHO it failed due to having not enough tiles. If you looked into the stage files you had a quite big schock and disappointment...

What I would love to see is a possibility for community stages or tiles if Your Stage would be used through the Steam Market.

There are plenty of hobby 3d modelers and I don't think it's that hard to create a special stage. I would certainly try to eith my very basic 3d modelling skills.

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I see some people asking for DR 2, but how can Codies do a proper sequel to DR if they can't use real stages, without the WRC License? One of the selling points of DR was hand crafted real stages, and i can't imagine a sequel without them... unless they get some other License, like ERC.

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Alf72 said:
I see some people asking for DR 2, but how can Codies do a proper sequel to DR if they can't use real stages, without the WRC License? One of the selling points of DR was hand crafted real stages, and i can't imagine a sequel without them... unless they get some other License, like ERC.
Any dev can still use real stages. They just can't be stages that are in the World Rally Championship. 

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versedi said:
Your Stage is nice concept on paper but IMHO it failed due to having not enough tiles. If you looked into the stage files you had a quite big schock and disappointment...

What I would love to see is a possibility for community stages or tiles if Your Stage would be used through the Steam Market.

There are plenty of hobby 3d modelers and I don't think it's that hard to create a special stage. I would certainly try to eith my very basic 3d modelling skills.

I tried but it is hard to make it looks nice, they looks pretty bad, but well I have modelled it with BTB and used it in RBR which even DiRT Rally stages will look bad lol

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I think Codemasters have the licence now, but they are quiet because they don't know if they can finish this season game, so if they realize 2018 game can't be finished in time, they will release 2019 game at the start of next year maybe

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