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dirt3joe said:
You could be right.

But I think you are being a bit unfair re the negative tone. Businesses have to continue to produce, they can't change their schedules on a sixpence because of things that may or may not happen. Sometimes you just have to plan for both eventualities and make the best of it whatever occurs.

I doubt anyone can plan on having the WRC Official Game license until the papers are signed. And as negative as I am towards D4, in CM's defence there have been games launched in a much worse state than D4. The negativity is not really because of what the game itself is rather the promises and hype that turned out to be false.

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dirt3joe said:
You could be right.

But I think you are being a bit unfair re the negative tone. Businesses have to continue to produce, they can't change their schedules on a sixpence because of things that may or may not happen. Sometimes you just have to plan for both eventualities and make the best of it whatever occurs.

I doubt anyone can plan on having the WRC Official Game license until the papers are signed. And as negative as I am towards D4, in CM's defence there have been games launched in a much worse state than D4. The negativity is not really because of what the game itself is rather the promises and hype that turned out to be false.
What promises did they make that they didn't keep ? I don't recall them promising specific numbers of tiles (they never said how many tiles there were IIRC). They didn't promise more locations/dlc. They may have said that they wren't happy with the handling, but did they promise to change it ? They promised clubs and delivered - quite late though. Did they promise a new rallycross track ?

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dirt3joe said:
dirt3joe said:
You could be right.

But I think you are being a bit unfair re the negative tone. Businesses have to continue to produce, they can't change their schedules on a sixpence because of things that may or may not happen. Sometimes you just have to plan for both eventualities and make the best of it whatever occurs.

I doubt anyone can plan on having the WRC Official Game license until the papers are signed. And as negative as I am towards D4, in CM's defence there have been games launched in a much worse state than D4. The negativity is not really because of what the game itself is rather the promises and hype that turned out to be false.
What promises did they make that they didn't keep ? I don't recall them promising specific numbers of tiles (they never said how many tiles there were IIRC). They didn't promise more locations/dlc. They may have said that they wren't happy with the handling, but did they promise to change it ? They promised clubs and delivered - quite late though. Did they promise a new rallycross track ?
Why they would waste time in D4 if they are involved in a bigger project (WRC8)

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We can all assume D4, in the end, was a very rushed product. I even heard someone mention that the sound team did not have time to mix things properly, hence the gravel sound was almost gone.

They are working on something, we can just speculate what it is til they announce something.

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dirt3joe said:
What promises did they make that they didn't keep ? I don't recall them promising specific numbers of tiles (they never said how many tiles there were IIRC). They didn't promise more locations/dlc. They may have said that they wren't happy with the handling, but did they promise to change it ? They promised clubs and delivered - quite late though. Did they promise a new rallycross track ?
Most of the negativity (myself included) seem to come from DiRT Rally fans. D4 seems like it was well-received by the "general" public. Now on to your question:

YOUR STAGE
This is the biggest disappointment of D4.

We were promised a rally route creator with "billions" of "completely unique" stage possibilities. After the announcement that was toned down to "millions".

Paul: "Your Stage creates such a huge variety of routes, some that we would never have thought of crafting before..."

How can you honestly say that when all Your Stage turned out to be was a RNG with fixed tiles composed of the tiny amount of turns and straights that they themselves coded into those fixed tiles?

While they didn't technically "lie" about what Your Stage can do it is very questionable marketing and left me, personally, quite disappointed in the final product. The grind to the platinum trophy made me never want to see another 100m of D4 Your Stage.

LEAGUES
Promised for day 1. Scrapped two weeks before launch.

HANDLING
Promised to be DiRT Rally but with refinements to car aerodynamics, weight and braking distances. What we actually got were spot-on R2 and R5 classes and the rest of the rally cars undriveable. Rallycross very good, though. The setup tweaking to make RWD cars is not valid. It makes you slower because there is something fundamentally wrong with being able to drive a RWD rally car as if it were an LMP1 on a test track, which can be done with the default setups.

DAMAGE
Promised an improved and more realistic damage model from DR. What we got is the same basic arcade-style damage model but with the percentage wear of parts a bit increased when hitting things.

My sources are Road Books, official forum commentary and CM YouTube streams.

Now, none of this is the end of the world. I'm salty because they tried to capitalize on the DR fanbase by promising something that wasn't executed in the final product. But we all should have known better. After all, it was "DiRT 4" and not "DiRT Rally 2".

Granted, it's a very short list of "false promises", "over-hyping" or "questionable marketing tactics". Take your pick which of those three seems less offensive to you. However, given that the two most important things in a rally game are the physics and the stages, I hope you can understand why D4 is a slap in the face to me instead of just a disappointment.

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Most of the negativity (myself included) seem to come from DiRT Rally fans. D4 seems like it was well-received by the "general" public.
A lot of this positive reception also came from the fact that DiRT 4 came out over 6 years after the previous numbered DiRT. A lot of the people who went for DiRT 4 were also told that DiRT Rally was different and that if they were expecting it to play like a mainstream DiRT title, they were going to be disappointed. So there was a 'thirst' to be quenched for a more forgiving DiRT title. Those who tried DiRT Rally and enjoyed it (the PC gamers, mostly, due to early access), did not like DiRT 4 that much. The gap between the ratings of the two games is largest on PC.

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dirt3joe said:
What promises did they make that they didn't keep ? I don't recall them promising specific numbers of tiles (they never said how many tiles there were IIRC). They didn't promise more locations/dlc. They may have said that they wren't happy with the handling, but did they promise to change it ? They promised clubs and delivered - quite late though. Did they promise a new rallycross track ?
Most of the negativity (myself included) seem to come from DiRT Rally fans. D4 seems like it was well-received by the "general" public. Now on to your question:

YOUR STAGE
This is the biggest disappointment of D4.

We were promised a rally route creator with "billions" of "completely unique" stage possibilities. After the announcement that was toned down to "millions".

Paul: "Your Stage creates such a huge variety of routes, some that we would never have thought of crafting before..."

How can you honestly say that when all Your Stage turned out to be was a RNG with fixed tiles composed of the tiny amount of turns and straights that they themselves coded into those fixed tiles?

While they didn't technically "lie" about what Your Stage can do it is very questionable marketing and left me, personally, quite disappointed in the final product. The grind to the platinum trophy made me never want to see another 100m of D4 Your Stage.

LEAGUES
Promised for day 1. Scrapped two weeks before launch.

HANDLING
Promised to be DiRT Rally but with refinements to car aerodynamics, weight and braking distances. What we actually got were spot-on R2 and R5 classes and the rest of the rally cars undriveable. Rallycross very good, though. The setup tweaking to make RWD cars is not valid. It makes you slower because there is something fundamentally wrong with being able to drive a RWD rally car as if it were an LMP1 on a test track, which can be done with the default setups.

DAMAGE
Promised an improved and more realistic damage model from DR. What we got is the same basic arcade-style damage model but with the percentage wear of parts a bit increased when hitting things.

My sources are Road Books, official forum commentary and CM YouTube streams.

Now, none of this is the end of the world. I'm salty because they tried to capitalize on the DR fanbase by promising something that wasn't executed in the final product. But we all should have known better. After all, it was "DiRT 4" and not "DiRT Rally 2".

Granted, it's a very short list of "false promises", "over-hyping" or "questionable marketing tactics". Take your pick which of those three seems less offensive to you. However, given that the two most important things in a rally game are the physics and the stages, I hope you can understand why D4 is a slap in the face to me instead of just a disappointment.
I get where your coming from. I could argue the toss on many of the issues above, but it would be pretty pointless.

For me personally Dirt Rally is far better in handling terms than dirt 4. But I think the most relevant point is the one you make above which is that Dirt4 was not Dirt Rally 2.

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I’d hardly call the non-R2/R5 cars undriveable. The 205 GTI, Evo VI, ‘01 Focus, and R4 Impreza are all favourites of mine in D4, with the default setups. I had to re-learn how to brake, especially with the Group A cars (very gently and in a straight line, then power through the corner), but that was it.

I have 80 hours in Dirt 4 so far and 270 hours in Dirt Rally. I don’t care what the Codemasters rally team is working on next, but I’ll be playing it. 

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dwkGravey said:
I’d hardly call the non-R2/R5 cars undriveable. The 205 GTI, Evo VI, ‘01 Focus, and R4 Impreza are all favourites of mine in D4, with the default setups. I had to re-learn how to brake, especially with the Group A cars (very gently and in a straight line, then power through the corner), but that was it.

I have 80 hours in Dirt 4 so far and 270 hours in Dirt Rally. I don’t care what the Codemasters rally team is working on next, but I’ll be playing it. 
Yeah I never really understood the people that yells that they will never play a game from a developer again just because the last one wasn't to their liking.

I'm absolutely sure they have listened to the feedback they've got from D4, good and bad, and will do all they can to make a great next title, whatever it is. There is no doubt in my mind.

;)

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er185 said:
On April 23 2018, Bigben Interactive was looking for an Assistant Game Producer to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs. 
https://emploi.afjv.com/emploi-jeux-video/SPRO116-13633
This was discussed many pages back, or in the WRC 8 thread. The WRC mention in that thread is just an example of what they do.

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So Christina says she has begun leaving hints about the next game. Ladies and gentlemen, let the hunt begin!

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Dytut said:
So Christina says she has begun leaving hints about the next game. Ladies and gentlemen, let the hunt begin!
At this point I don't even care if it's WRC or not. For sure it's a rally game at least. There's no way they experimented with Your Stage, clubs, multiplayer lobbies and the eSports platform for nothing.

D4 taught them and us that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. DiRT and DiRT Rally cannot be combined into the same game. Especially when you split the user base offering two different handling modes.

All I want is a point-to-point rally game with:
  • Your Stage 2.0 that is not so repetitive.
  • A few curated stages for each rally (whether real scanned/GPS roads or not). If YS 2.0 is included and turns out to be a big improvement then anything between DR's 280km and SLRE's 500km of stages would be fine.
  • DR driving experience with the physics improvements shown in R5 and R2 of D4 under a single handling model (and yes, there are a few other cars that feel OK).
  • The same clubs and multiplayer functionality that is already present in D4.
  • A more punishing damage model (SLRE's damage model is a good compromise between hardcore and arcade and is adjustable)
  • Basic weather - doesn't have to be dynamic
  • Tire choice! Why is WRC the only rally game that allows you to choose tire compound?
Anything else like dynamic road deformation, influence of starting order, dynamic weather, team management, car upgrades/development over a season, livery editor, etc... would just be icing on the cake. I just don't want them to try an SMS Project CARS 2 which has every feature under the sun with tons of tracks and cars working with Livetrack but hardly ever works properly. Too ambitious. Let's get all the basics right to begin with, whether we're looking at DR2 or WRC8.

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Quickly scan all @ChristinaMc online communcations for clues! I bet she said she was tired at some point, that surely must mean tire choice.

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Dytut said:
Quickly scan all @ChristinaMc online communcations for clues! I bet she said she was tired at some point, that surely must mean tire choice.
Also check the 8 shamrock photo from WRCTheOfficialGame just in case there is a CM logo stuck in there somewhere  ::smile:

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Anything else like dynamic road deformation, influence of starting order, dynamic weather, team management, car upgrades/development over a season
Heh, this is all the stuff I'd like to see more of in the next game—all the rally atmosphere and team management experience. What Dirt 4 has is fantastic, so I'd just like the same or more in the future please. :smile:

Road deformation would be my number one pie-in-the-sky wish. Not necessarily dynamic (i.e. happening over the course of a stage like Sega Rally Online Arcade), but a slightly different surface each time depending on your start order and the conditions. Antoine L'Estage said he would follow Ken Block on the stage and could see where Block braked because the ruts became darker, so L'Estage would brake after that. Being able to do something like that in a Dirt game, if you're following S. Alvaraz or whoever, would be very cool.

Oh and bring back multiple AI on the stage like in Dirt 3 if possible!

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You're right. Doesn't even have to be dynamic surface. Just a grip variant coefficient based on starting order or ambient conditions would help a lot to reduce the hotlapping syndrome that plagues almost all rally games. And maybe a random rock or two on the road at times. 

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That would totally awesome! I would love to see both of those features. I would also like to have multiple cars on the same stage like DiRT 3 so that if multiple drivers crash you need to be extra cautious. I would also like to see World RX make a return with full calendar so that we can swap between Stage Rally and RX. All the RX cars would also be nice. The Open 4WD class here in the Americas would also be cool for stage rally.

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er185 said:
On April 23 2018, Bigben Interactive was looking for an Assistant Game Producer to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs. 
https://emploi.afjv.com/emploi-jeux-video/SPRO116-13633
This was discussed many pages back, or in the WRC 8 thread. The WRC mention in that thread is just an example of what they do.
I take this back. The wording is different this time. And the job opening is different. The last one was something like "you will work with a studio that has created big titles like WRC" (or something like that). This one is "vous aurez la possibilité de travailler sur des productions prestigieuses telles que WRC et d'autres titres à venir sur consoles et PC."

I don't read French so I translated it to the two languages I can speak:

"tendrá la oportunidad de trabajar en producciones de prestigio como WRC y otros próximos títulos en consolas y PC."

"you will have the opportunity to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs."

Both of those automatic translations clearly link future opportunity with a WRC title.

Any French speakers who can provide more insight?

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er185 said:
On April 23 2018, Bigben Interactive was looking for an Assistant Game Producer to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs. 
https://emploi.afjv.com/emploi-jeux-video/SPRO116-13633
This was discussed many pages back, or in the WRC 8 thread. The WRC mention in that thread is just an example of what they do.
I take this back. The wording is different this time. And the job opening is different. The last one was something like "you will work with a studio that has created big titles like WRC" (or something like that). This one is "vous aurez la possibilité de travailler sur des productions prestigieuses telles que WRC et d'autres titres à venir sur consoles et PC."

I don't read French so I translated it to the two languages I can speak:

"tendrá la oportunidad de trabajar en producciones de prestigio como WRC y otros próximos títulos en consolas y PC."

"you will have the opportunity to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs."

Both of those automatic translations clearly link future opportunity with a WRC title.

Any French speakers who can provide more insight?
Let me translate.

LA BAGUETTE LA OMELETTE HON HON HON

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er185 said:
On April 23 2018, Bigben Interactive was looking for an Assistant Game Producer to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs. 
https://emploi.afjv.com/emploi-jeux-video/SPRO116-13633
This was discussed many pages back, or in the WRC 8 thread. The WRC mention in that thread is just an example of what they do.
I take this back. The wording is different this time. And the job opening is different. The last one was something like "you will work with a studio that has created big titles like WRC" (or something like that). This one is "vous aurez la possibilité de travailler sur des productions prestigieuses telles que WRC et d'autres titres à venir sur consoles et PC."

I don't read French so I translated it to the two languages I can speak:

"tendrá la oportunidad de trabajar en producciones de prestigio como WRC y otros próximos títulos en consolas y PC."

"you will have the opportunity to work on prestigious productions such as WRC and other upcoming titles on consoles and PCs."

Both of those automatic translations clearly link future opportunity with a WRC title.

Any French speakers who can provide more insight?
I'm not a native French speaker, but the wording is "prestigious productions such as WRC".

I don't know what to think of this. Maybe BigBen are still the license holders. Or it could be that, just for one game, the license will be on another studio's hands, you know, in order to keep the yearly games coming, while Kylotton assembles their new teams.

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I doubt another studio would take over for just one title. It's not efficient.

My guess is that Bigben doesn't have the license and this is just a semantics issue, or Bigben does have the license but another studio will be beginning the cycle again. Maybe even Codemasters.

Remember that Deepsilver publishes DiRT Rally in the Americas. And Bigben publishes Gravel. So although Codies is usually efficient as an in-house publisher, they have resorted to 3rd parties and there is no reason why Bigben couldn't publish a CM, SMS or any other studios' game.

EDIT:

Koch Media website, publisher of Codemasters in Europe: "Established brands such as Square Enix, SEGA, Focus Home Interactive, Koei Tecmo Europe, Microsoft, Codemasters, Bethesda, Capcom, and NCSoft all trust in Koch Media's sales prowess in various European territories."

Deep Silver is part of Koch and publishes Codemasters games in the Americas.

So Bigben having to publish a hypothetical WRC game made by Codemasters due to contractual reasons is really no big deal.

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I doubt another studio would take over for just one title. It's not efficient.

My guess is that Bigben doesn't have the license and this is just a semantics issue, or Bigben does have the license but another studio will be beginning the cycle again. Maybe even Codemasters.

Remember that Deepsilver publishes DiRT Rally in the Americas. And Bigben publishes Gravel. So although Codies is usually efficient as an in-house publisher, they have resorted to 3rd parties and there is no reason why Bigben couldn't publish a CM, SMS or any other studios' game.

EDIT:

Koch Media website, publisher of Codemasters in Europe: "Established brands such as Square Enix, SEGA, Focus Home Interactive, Koei Tecmo Europe, Microsoft, Codemasters, Bethesda, Capcom, and NCSoft all trust in Koch Media's sales prowess in various European territories."

Deep Silver is part of Koch and publishes Codemasters games in the Americas.

So Bigben having to publish a hypothetical WRC game made by Codemasters due to contractual reasons is really no big deal.
True enough. Codemasters made and published by BigBen would be possible. However, there's still the whole e-sports rushed championship situation. Where does that fit into this? If BigBen retains control of the license, why wouldn't they let it run full length? A new season would only start next year.

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