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18 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

not really sure what to make of the singer on stilts porsche. tbh. its a jacked up porsche.

what i would really love to know is will the brand new toyota yaris be coming to dirt. its the hottest car on the planet right now.

Yeah, I'm glad the company is still around, but it looks very odd. Way more Baja/Rally raid than rally. The lift kit and little front fins make it look... I don't even know.

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i dont get it tbh. singer tweak porsches but this is just jacked up porsche. porsche fans will love it whatever. also just watched latest video from king promoted henrikm what a slow drive might film myself eating dinner and beating his run or drinking a beer and driving one handed. it really does puzzle me whos paying to get these guys promoted on youtube yet so **** at the game they promoting. far better people out there yet because they got subscribers its like yep thumbs up promote him to the highest degree. dirt rally dont even get this traffic he gets.

basically formula is drive third person cause its popular clean but slow get promoted. its the very opposite of the premise of dirt rally. baffles me how a slow person can just choose to record third person or chase cam and get put up there like a driving god yet its slow and just done because chase cam is popular on youtube. what does that even say about people promoting slower people than many just because they have subscribers. pretty weak.

its like in pga tour golf you know tiger woods is on and you pick some random shitter and pimp him.

 

actually anyone here whos decent at dirt rally and can record. do a nice run same as him and stick it in the title. this really needs to stop promote people who are good at dirt rally stop promoting people who have big subscriber bases yet are ****. stick his name in the title and slow. beat it.

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7 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

i dont get it tbh. singer tweak porsches but this is just jacked up porsche. porsche fans will love it whatever.

Top Gear have a good video on this. It is essentially a "jacked up Porsche" like you said but with Singer's usual high attention to detail and craftsmanship.

 

 

I'm not even going to engage with the rest of your comment due to its poor attitude, tone and the fact that I have personally had this discussion with you several times, however you may be pleased to know this tweet exists (barely got half the engagement of this one but hey ho):

 

 

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thats the whole point ! you basing whos promoted on engagement. not skill or other metrics. just think if you promoted the top players runs more and often they maybe would get more engagement ?

 

the simple answer is big subscriber bases are why many people are promoted. its not if they good at your game and it actually goes against everything Dirt related at its ethos.

Colin Mcrae the poster child for dirt rally the absolute ethos of rally who was used for marketing dirt flat out and who do you promote ? the slowest people with big subscriber bases. yet the fastest best players are generally blown to the side like tumble weed. goes against everything which is the actual marketing for the game !

you can look at all the metrics you want. promote the better players more. its not even personally related as i dont do dirt content any more and wont do it anymore. its actually for other people and how promotion is done for those that are good vs those who just have big subscriber bases and generally are poor at the games.

 

also the tweet shows why people do that kinda ****. ooh lets just post barrel roles every tweet because of media engagement. you can change this but your going by metrics already made. not what could come in the future. so basically lets crash on purpose post on twitter. lets do a barrel roll post on facebook. lets drive poorly make stupid caption to fit. all false poor social media engagement marketing. when with a little effort you could do more of better runs skilled things and put the effort into that side but..no thats too hard to do and time consuming why choose a brilliant run when you can just go record a 10 second barrel run.

also its understood why you do it. im just saying why not promote more better people at dirt rally. no need to reply or respond. or mention metrics.

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There is a simple phrase that works well across many forms of media, be it social or traditional:

  • "Give the people what they want."

 

Sometimes you can convince people that they will eventually want a particular thing, sometimes you cannot.

While I agree with some of your points the one thing you fail to realise whenever we discuss this is that there is a wide and varied audience, just as there is a wide range of skill levels in the game. Certain videos satisfy the Top 0.1%, others satisfy the other 99.9%.

 

Just out of curiosity, I did a search for DiRT Rally 2.0 World Record on YouTube just now, and sorted by views.

  • Only 4 World Record videos broke 100,000 views in the 2 years of this game's life.
  • 2 of them were a week after the game launched.
  • The other 2 were a few months after that.

While there is an audience for these, that audience is small and mostly expired. There is a time when demand for such runs is high, and 2021 is not that time; 2020 wasn't either.

 

You also seem to have this preconceived notion that a brand account sharing a video gives it tens of thousands of views.

I have data to prove that this isn't the case, though if you'd like to see some numbers for yourself go look up the analytics and referral source metrics for:

  1. This video of yours which was shared here.
  2. This video of yours which was shared here.
  3. This video of yours which was shared here.
  4. This video of yours which was shared here.
  5. This video of yours which was shared here.

 

I could go into more detail but I have more productive things to do with my day; you can search through our previous conversations if you'd like more information.

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thanks on the feedback for a start. what id like to reply to that and i dont want to waste your time as i know you busy is. while i understand what you mean what i will say is...if only the silly stunt stuff and big people are promotoed and have been for years then yes they will be the most popular and the metrics shown because you or the company hasnt promoted the skilled part as much as it could of been.

its like selling 1 item only for 5 years then a new product is out and saying the old one has more metrics or better metrics . yeah it does because one hasnt had the promotion or time to be more popular. its that simple. if all you do is promote a certain way then low and behold it will be more popular.

its understandable from a business point of view pimping someone who has 1 million subs over someone who has hundreds or thousands of subs. you the company want to cover as many buyers as possible. the point is many of the better players of this game arent big subscriber power houses. so what you end up is the clown show material which is often promoted. thats fine for the arcadey side of things but when you showing the sim side of it it makes no sense for gameplay reasons. for MONEY reasons i get why.

we have had similar discussions over the past and i get exactly what you mean and its also one of the reasons why i stopped doing dirt videos. cause i know regardless of how many records you break win the world championship it makes no difference at all because smaller youtubers just wont be fully promoted to the best of what codemasters could do. they just want barrel rolls and big subscriber youtubers. thats why every top search is for dirt rally those very people.

so it makes it very frustrating for people putting in the time and effort who are ten times better than those promoted to get anywhere. so you end up losing all the best players of this great game because youd rather back clowns cause they got big subscriber bases to sell your games to.

this is why i have this convo with you with the hope that one day some community manager social media person actually takes in apon themself to say hold up why dont we promote help them. sad thing is i dont think that will ever happen. which is why as said i stopped playing and recording videos.

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Whatever anyone else thinks, I like that Singer rally Porsche and if it was in a game I'd be happy. The one car I enjoyed most in Dirt Rally was a mod and it was the Colin McRae designed rally car, I really enjoyed throwing it around. Pity it wasn't actually in the game or the sequel. It reminded me of the Singer Porsche. Just because one person doesn't like it, it doesn't mean everyone will share that view.

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That's more like it @dgeesi0, a more reasoned out post that looks at both sides. 🙂 

As we've discussed previously, there is a snowball effect on social media, especially YouTube, where after the initial traction big people get bigger and there's not a whole lot you can do about that.

I have goals and objectives, and Codemasters too, and getting many eyeballs on the #DiRTRally name is one of those, so it makes sense that we lean more towards the people that already have followings as it's mutually beneficial.

Another thing we've gone over in the past is that "entertainment" is a bigger draw than "raw skill". That is true in many areas of society.

It is easier to share entertainers than skill runs as they appeal to more people, however it is not like I am ignoring skill runs entirely. I have explored many ways of trying to build those up too; some of them are things you know about already (like the blogs), some are projects that never got past the email stage, and some are good in theory but now is not the right time. Don't assume that because you don't see end results that no action has been taken, that's what riles me up about your posts usually 😉 

I must also point out (as I did in the past) that it is not the job of the brand to boost up everybody, the initial hard work does come down to each individual creator and how they can grow their channels to the point where we have to step back and take notice. No creator gets "lucky" on YouTube; it comes down to timing, patience, well thought-out content plans and much more besides. I know this because I am in the trenches, doing it myself on both a personal and professional level.

I know you're not a fan of his but Henrik gets 300k views already without us sharing his videos (we barely add a few hundred views to that at best), and if we can leverage that to not only shine a spotlight on him but bring some of his community over to ours then all the better. Back when I was more invested in the Forza community I had similar thoughts about the people they work with and the content they share, but having the benefit of being on the inside I know the reasonings and not only understand them, but put them into practice.

 

Looping back to 2 paragraphs ago, go watch this; there is a lot of untapped potential on YouTube (especially in the sim racing space). It is each creator's responsibility (and brand channels too) to find that untapped potential and unlock it. Nobody is going to give success to people, they must do the work and make it happen.

 

47 minutes ago, Rogerbee said:

The one car I enjoyed most in Dirt Rally was a mod and it was the Colin McRae designed rally car, I really enjoyed throwing it around. Pity it wasn't actually in the game or the sequel. It reminded me of the Singer Porsche. Just because one person doesn't like it, it doesn't mean everyone will share that view.

I know the McRae R4 was looked at in the past, but for some reason didn't make it all the way to being formally added to recent games. We know its a cracking rally car though and I'm sure if the stars align just right people will get to drive it again 🙂 

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For the record,

  • I am an occasional DR YouTube vid watcher
  • I've no interest in WR attempts, it looks as unrealistic as any 'third person' camera video to me
  • Third person vids have something that onboard WRs don't... exterior sounds - this differentiates it from me as I've never heard the external sounds of a lot of the cars
  • Some vids I'm looking for are 'how does DR work with THIS hardware I have/am thinking of buying' - xpertgamingtech channel gets huge hits, but is using standard hardware
  • Critically, a generic thumbnail of a 3rd person view stands out more than a generic thumbnail of a 1st person car (and, to me, more than many custom thumbnail styles - PJ's done a good job of making official vids with thumbnails that stand out)
  • Critically, when the game or DLCs were new, I was happy to subscribe to quantity over quality - I've unsubbed from those now, but I guess many people stay subbed

 

 

Singer Porsche? Looks like a Raid car to me, I've certainly no interest in that as things stand, I'd much rather have the 911 that actually rallies on stages. It's done a great deal in grabbing attention though, so can't argue with that. 

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The first year there seemed to be a lot of attention going to the world championship in Birmingham. But afterwards codemasters did (as far as I followed it) very little with the champions in relation to promotion. For me this always feeled as a missed opportunity. 

This topic today gave some more information in why. But I disagree and still feel codemasters should have done more with it, for themselves and for the ones who were on top.

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2 minutes ago, Janneman60 said:

The first year there seemed to be a lot of attention going to the world championship in Birmingham. But afterwards codemasters did (as far as I followed it) very little with the champions in relation to promotion. For me this always feeled as a missed opportunity. 

Our focus at the time was on GOTY and Colin McRae as that was announced pretty much the week after World Series ended.

It would have been nice to do more with the esports players but in the end "2020 happened" and the best we could do is invite a select few of them to the World RX Esports Series to battle real drivers.

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i think the thing that is missed is many people are doing or done the work but its often unnoticed. many people understand youtube and how it works. the problem is do you become on of those YO DUDES IM LIKE SLIDING MY BACK OUT BOYZZZZ ! to succeed or just hope help is given. not many proper runs are shared on social media. they have been but in ratio to stunts and silly stuff 1 / 10 probably right.

the funny thing is some of the highest viewed dirt videos on youtube are on actual speed world record runs for views. :classic_tongue: also with pros driving them.  yet lets not promote them to often.

saying your not going to just get given it when put in many years of effort is a bit cheap tbh. especially when for eg you can make a so so video just sticky it to top of this forum.how about sticking other peoples work highlighting speed runs there is so much more that could be done. yet isnt. many guides are promoted on here are just yours and sticked. why is that ?

this is exactly what im talking about promote people in here who do social media videos twitch.

sorry if it comes across harshly but a lot of effort has gone in over the years and its not a couple of videos but seeing many others effected by it and especially a lot of the very best who play dirt games i just mention it every now and then with the hope of something else happens to better the situation.

i do also understand that many do like dude yo where my car kinda videos.

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I'm exploring ways to do it still, and seeing if any work in 2021 🙂 

Like I said however, just because a brand shares some content doesn't mean it'll get views. I (and you) have data that proves this.

 

For example, here's direct sharing on the YouTube channel (YouTube Community feed is a low-stakes way to share this stuff for now):

image.png

 

Another thing to consider is that I don't have full autonomy over @dirtgame right now as we need to balance DIRT 5 content with rally content, and have to be picky with what things I share.

Like I said, I want to and have considered ways to share "skill runs" in a way that makes people give a damn, but it's not as easy as plopping them onto Twitter 😉 

 

Also, as mentioned, there are things I want to do or experiment with but now (in a game's life cycle) is not the time as they won't be effective. 🙂  

 

Like most of you I am already thinking about "the future" and not only what that future may potentially bring, but what I or the wider Codies team could do in the future to excite, inform and help you all. 😉

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to sign off from work and do my Dailies, good chat 🙂  

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7 hours ago, PJTierney said:

Top Gear have a good video on this. It is essentially a "jacked up Porsche" like you said but with Singer's usual high attention to detail and craftsmanship.

Oh, it's definitely some excellent work, I just don't like the way it looks. The split front lip is one of my biggest dislikes. I guess if it's designed for Safari that makes more sense as a rally raid thing.

Wow. I just watched that, and man it's boring. I had more excitement watching James May organize wrenches. Does anyone still watch Top Gear?

 

7 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

thats the whole point ! you basing whos promoted on engagement. not skill or other metrics.

Well duh. It's marketing. The sole intention is to get it to the eyeholes of as many people as possible. No one's heard of you or the rest of the alien squad. You might be more interested in silent world record runs, but the vast majority of people are not and don't compete at that level.

 

2 hours ago, Rogerbee said:

Whatever anyone else thinks, I like that Singer rally Porsche and if it was in a game I'd be happy. The one car I enjoyed most in Dirt Rally was a mod and it was the Colin McRae designed rally car, I really enjoyed throwing it around. Pity it wasn't actually in the game or the sequel. It reminded me of the Singer Porsche. Just because one person doesn't like it, it doesn't mean everyone will share that view.

I'm not sure we were arguing about it. Nor were we discussing it being in game.

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1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

 

Well duh. It's marketing. The sole intention is to get it to the eyeholes of as many people as possible. No one's heard of you or the rest of the alien squad. You might be more interested in silent world record runs, but the vast majority of people are not and don't compete at that level.

 

 

yes thats the thing we or i understand fully why its done. its just the more sim side should be catered for better throughout the community. not media just chosen because a person has a big subscriber base. its basically ignoring content creation and just looking at whos got the biggest subscribers. also dirt rally is a sim game. yet often its the very opposite thats being shown promoted.

its not about just showing world record runs either. its more about giving 95 percent of those that do videos twitch streams who havent got 100,000 plus subs a chance to do anything with the game they love dirt. it doesnt matter how much work you put in if at every top end search promoted top 3 - 5 are those very big streamers youtubers. you going to struggle and its not even down to skill or talent.

also must say its actually hard to express honestly without seeming negative when thats the last thing thats wanted. love dirt games and much of the codie team. just some things could be done far far better and unless people say anything it wont change. its not even for my benefit as i dont do anything dirt. its for others who may get a shot a career. good luck to them.

 

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My2c: There just needs to be a little bit of balance with promoting the already famous (mostly 2nd/3rd grade drivers) and the really skilled first grade drivers who may not be as popular on YT.   The first is obvious, to spread viewership of the game to a larger audience.  The second however is to stay true to what the game is about and what the sport is about, and that is skill and technology.  So there are two sides to the story in a sensible world, because while CM needs to promote its product, it can't just be at the mercy of Google's algorithms and pumping out only goofy personalized material.  

 

Having said that, hard to promote a video that has a low bit-rate, too many turned off graphics options, any bad language , etc etc. 

 

Either way, PJ has shared a few WR's recently, so not complaining.

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4 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Well duh. It's marketing. The sole intention is to get it to the eyeholes of as many people as possible. No one's heard of you or the rest of the alien squad. You might be more interested in silent world record runs, but the vast majority of people are not and don't compete at that level.

There's no need for this discussion to degenerate guys.

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yeah didnt really wanna respond as tbh pj said hes going to try new things but jz put it in a kinda derogatory manor which wasnt going to leave. what some might not know for eg is ive got every codie rally game and been playing them since colin mcrae one and done videos since the original dirt. so its not moaning for the sake of it. i love the series. i want it to advance.

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6 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

not media just chosen because a person has a big subscriber base. its basically ignoring content creation and just looking at whos got the biggest subscribers.

That's an oxymoron. The pick the content creators with the most views.

6 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

its not about just showing world record runs either. its more about giving 95 percent of those that do videos twitch streams who havent got 100,000 plus subs a chance to do anything with the game they love dirt. it doesnt matter how much work you put in if at every top end search promoted top 3 - 5 are those very big streamers youtubers. you going to struggle and its not even down to skill or talent.

That's YouTube/Twitch in a nutshell. I don't think enough people really care enough to follow dirt and watch all the posted videos outside series fans. i.e. I highly doubt CM and the Dirt team are making a big impact either way. Jimmy Broadbent sucks and I personally hate that he's a full grown man literally living in a shed in his parents back yard but has $6000 of sim gear, but he's entertaining. Apparently. Watching some guy do the same race without any commentary or engagement of any sort is really boring.

YouTube itself and the community as a whole has transitioned away from quality content in favor of significantly easier solutions. Especially gaming channels, YouTube has been screwing them over big time and some of the biggest guys are just pushing out daily garbage now.

 

3 hours ago, bn880 said:

There's no need for this discussion to degenerate guys.

It's true. It's marketing. No one sponsors someone that no one's ever heard of.

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17 hours ago, dgeesi0 said:

also dirt rally is a sim game. yet often its the very opposite thats being shown promoted.

Well, I def disagree here. If you want to promote DR as a sim game you certainly wouldn't want the WR videos to trend as most of these videos give away all the physics quirks/exploits these games still have and basically just shows off the game in the worst possible way(from a realism/sim perspective).

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3 hours ago, bogani said:

Well, I def disagree here. If you want to promote DR as a sim game you certainly wouldn't want the WR videos to trend as most of these videos give away all the physics quirks/exploits these games still have and basically just shows off the game in the worst possible way(from a realism/sim perspective).

well thats mainly down to the engine and car handling. not the media.

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10 hours ago, Orangetuner said:

You're being negative. It's toxic and gets really old.

No, I'm being factual. You have a product to sell. Do you sponsor someone with 4 million viewers, or someone with 30 viewers? Which gives you more exposure and in turn more sales? Why do you think SlapTrain and Donut Media are in Dirt 5? They get views.

You guys need to grow up.

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2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

No, I'm being factual. You have a product to sell. Do you sponsor someone with 4 million viewers, or someone with 30 viewers? Which gives you more exposure and in turn more sales? Why do you think SlapTrain and Donut Media are in Dirt 5? They get views.

You guys need to grow up.

Just trying to address the other mean things you throw in with it. Being factual as a cover to insult somebody is toxic because you can just say what ever you want to somebody so long as its factual.  Denying/dodging the insults someone throws along with "facts" is bs and would get old with anybody on the planet. Someone requesting to be less disrespectful is not being immature. 

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5 hours ago, Orangetuner said:

Just trying to address the other mean things you throw in with it. Being factual as a cover to insult somebody is toxic because you can just say what ever you want to somebody so long as its factual.  Denying/dodging the insults someone throws along with "facts" is bs and would get old with anybody on the planet. Someone requesting to be less disrespectful is not being immature. 

What insult? I'm frankly getting really fed up with people being insulted for no reason. I don't even care if I did, grow up and get over it. How do people go through life like that?

 

I can only assume you're offended because I said no one knows who he is. His last 20 videos have an average of 2271 views in a range from 156 to 5000 at the peak, minus a WR run with 20k. That's the peak of his views. No one's heard of him outside this forum and maybe people looking at the Dirt leaderboards.

Jimmy Broadbent's last 20 videos have an average of 140700 in a range of 72000 to 486000. At Jimmy's worst he's 3.6x more eyeballs than Dgeesio's best.

Get over it. It's a simple fact. I never said Dgeesio was a terrible person who deserved to die, I said that marketing favors a larger audience. Stop being offended by simply stating the truth.

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