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i still think we will see a new rally title this year maybe next year and then the wrc game when the full licensing can be done. no way EA just gunna sit and do nothing they got a billion pounds to get back and make profit. guess we will see soon. if a new game is this year we would here something shortly.

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I was hoping we'd see a new DiRT Rally title before WRC, and whenever Ryan Champion or whoever posts footage of some 'random' fun sessions in a Porsche rally car of course it fuels that hope, but I must say, I'm leaning more towards 'no new DR title' now. Not exactly sure why, probably because I think the schedule is too tight, and with a raging pandemic and all the implications (travel restrictions e.g) it's a lot harder to make a game like that. 

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6 hours ago, richieI said:

I was hoping we'd see a new DiRT Rally title before WRC, and whenever Ryan Champion or whoever posts footage of some 'random' fun sessions in a Porsche rally car of course it fuels that hope, but I must say, I'm leaning more towards 'no new DR title' now. Not exactly sure why, probably because I think the schedule is too tight, and with a raging pandemic and all the implications (travel restrictions e.g) it's a lot harder to make a game like that. 

Yeah, I think it’s 50/50 at the moment. If there won’t be an announcement in September or earlier, I think we need to wait till 2023. 

could be that DiRT Rally 3 will get a lot of things that will be in the WRC aswell. So than the schedule won’t be as tight. 

one more thing is still how the WRC license will be implemented. Could become integrated with DiRT Rally. Maybe it will be called DR: WRC. And maybe will be a game with WRC/ERC and also Rallycross.

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On 7/8/2021 at 1:46 PM, versedi said:

Why forum just removed my elaborate response why FrostBite isn't meant to be used for games with sophisticated physics... can I post now forum please?

 

Edit incoming...

 

As a long time BF4 player and casual BF3/BF1 player I can assure you that engine isn't meant for accurate physics simulation... if DR will get frostbite it means it's no longer DR and I'm 100% it's not viable to just fuse two separate engines together, even though there's probably still remains of Operation Flashpoint in Codemasters engine which EA had their toes in too.

If EA will kill DR I will hate the company even more than I already do.

 

The silence isn't assuring at all...

I guess we will see with F1 2022 what's happening unless EA separated portion of codies devs to some NFS-likey product they will release earlier than that

I'm aware. Frostbite is designed for shooting and looking pretty Anything else they need entire teams to try and tame and it never seems to actually work.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 4:27 AM, Jake Cushing said:

Doesn't seem like it'll be a bad thing necessarily.

“Whenever you’re trying to do something that fits the engine—vehicles, for example—Frostbite handles that extremely well,”

Anyone who's played any Battlefield after 3 knows that's a ******* lie. I love Battlefield, but it's never handled vehicles anywhere near remotely accurately. The NFS reboots were also lambasted for the poor vehicle physics.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 5:39 AM, RodgerDavies said:

I would be massively surprised by that - DR3 will have been planned well before the EA takeover. It may be factored in as an option for the WRC stuff, but decisions for any potential DR11 game coming out next year will surely have been taken before that. I can see Madness engine being a future option (AMS2 is doing great things with that) but I can see upgraded versions of the current Codies' one too.

Maybe for the immediate title I could see. EA's logic is that all of their studios should use the same engine so they can all work together, which in theory is fine, but in reality is awful when it's only designed for a singular purpose. Doubtful they'll improve the Ego engine. At absolute best they might bundle the Evo guys with what's left (if anything) of Criterion to make a new racing engine.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 12:37 PM, StockTunesOnly said:

I don't think any developers are targeting last gen consoles with future titles. I know the new consoles are hard to get your hands on, I'm trying to find a PS5 myself, but the old consoles are old at this point. Trying to maintain any retro-support is just limiting anything you can do. The new consoles were already around the corner when DR2.0 released, so any future titles should be targeted at that generation and beyond.

And yet D5 launched on all platforms. Likely the next game will too if it's coming out within the next year.

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8 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Anyone who's played any Battlefield after 3 knows that's a ******* lie. I love Battlefield, but it's never handled vehicles anywhere near remotely accurately. The NFS reboots were also lambasted for the poor vehicle physics.

I wouldn't look to either of those title's physics to be a guide. Did you really expect either to be exemplars of realistic physics?

The question is to what extent vehicle physics is intrinsic to an engine, as opposed to the problems actually identified by developers regarding Frostbite - open world area loading problems for example. 

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11 hours ago, JorritVD said:

Yeah, I think it’s 50/50 at the moment. If there won’t be an announcement in September or earlier, I think we need to wait till 2023. 

could be that DiRT Rally 3 will get a lot of things that will be in the WRC aswell. So than the schedule won’t be as tight. 

one more thing is still how the WRC license will be implemented. Could become integrated with DiRT Rally. Maybe it will be called DR: WRC. And maybe will be a game with WRC/ERC and also Rallycross.

I'm still on that "we will get DiRT Rally 3 in January/February 2022"-train! I think we'll get some news about it on the EA Plays live stream on 22nd of July.
Besides, we need to keep in mind that an officially licensed WRC game will most likely release around about September 2023.
The time between the hypothetical release dates of both titles is over a year and a half. Should be enough if they approach the development process in a smart way, which they are more than capable of.  

I've also been thinking about how they will implement the WRC license. The team went with adding the official World RX content to the DiRT Rally franchise so why not do the same with the official WRC licensed content. I really believe this would be the right decision. 
Why not even go a step further and instead of releasing a new WRC game each year, do what the developers of other racing franchises have done. I'm thinking of franchises like ACC, R3E etc. They release a DLC pack with all the "new season" content, ranging from cars to locations and more. If you have a strong base game, graphically and physics-wise, to build on top of, why not do it. If there is a new DiRT Rally title coming out early next year, I'm sure it will have some really significant improvements, both graphically and physics-wise, that will form a strong foundation to build on.    

Edited by SRD_SimVansevenant
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After weeks of working on this (hopefully) quality production, I finally (!!!) managed to release it.

WRC 10 - Demo Deep Dive - An honest (p)review

Keep in mind that it is quite a long video (43 minutes).
Enjoy, like and subscribe! 😆

 

 

Edited by SRD_SimVansevenant
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@SRD_SimVansevenantGreat video and appraisal, more depth and better assembled than the sim racing channels!

I absolutely detested WRC8, and could foresee no major improvements in that series given that iteration took them two years instead of the usual one year. This video just confirms what I suspected, that it is just not worth buying a KT rally game.

On the old 'centre pivot' question though - you've used chase-cam to demonstrate it. But isn't chase-cam an inherent problem with this question, as the camera itself pivots to keep up with the body of the car, making it by definition looking like a centre-pivot? Ie, every game looks like it uses a centre pivot when viewing chase cam?

Asking another way, have you encountered any racing game which does not look like a centre-pivot when using chase-cam? RBR for example?

Chase-cam is also the reason people claim the same thing about DR2.0...

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1 hour ago, Jake Cushing said:

On the old 'centre pivot' question though - you've used chase-cam to demonstrate it. But isn't chase-cam an inherent problem with this question, as the camera itself pivots to keep up with the body of the car, making it by definition looking like a centre-pivot? Ie, every game looks like it uses a centre pivot when viewing chase cam?

Asking another way, have you encountered any racing game which does not look like a centre-pivot when using chase-cam? RBR for example?

Chase-cam is also the reason people claim the same thing about DR2.0...

I think a chase cam has nothing to do with physics. Having the swingman cam focused on the center of the car is normal to do. That the physics are around a pivot is different point.

During my modding time years ago for GTR2 / Automobilista, i also made quite some camera files, or adjustment to them.
When making the swingman cam i not focused on the center of the car. Yes for the Left/Right position it was centered, but for the Front/Rear i not centered it.
I "centered" with the drivers head. Imo that gave the best feedback for drivers who played with swingman camera position.
If you had for example a SRT Viper GT3-R, the driver is not in the center of the car, but behind it (basically just in front of the rear wheels.
So driving such a car with a long nose feels a bit like a boat from POV. This same feeling you also get with swingman cam, and next to that you get better feedback of the actual car's behavior. 

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8 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

I wouldn't look to either of those title's physics to be a guide. Did you really expect either to be exemplars of realistic physics?

The question is to what extent vehicle physics is intrinsic to an engine, as opposed to the problems actually identified by developers regarding Frostbite - open world area loading problems for example. 

Really? The devs of the engine itself in a game known for vehicular combat and a racing game aren't to be used as a reference? How does that make sense? It's not a matter of using unrealistic values, it's a matter of the physics engine being exceptionally poor and buggy. It's like arguing that Arma 3 has good vehicle physics when a tank going over a curb has a 50/50 chance of flinging it literally a km into the air. It just doesn't.

 

5 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

Why not even go a step further and instead of releasing a new WRC game each year, do what the developers of other racing franchises have done. I'm thinking of franchises like ACC, R3E etc. They release a DLC pack with all the "new season" content, ranging from cars to locations and more.

For the love of God, please no. Please, for the sake of all things holy, dear God, no. Don't request this. This is why all the DLC for DR2 was just DR1.

R3E has the lowest userbase simply because of it's stupid, convoluted, and ludicrous payment methods and car packs. ACC is not a forever title, and never was planned to be. Quit trying to turn everything into iRacing.

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3 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

On the old 'centre pivot' question though - you've used chase-cam to demonstrate it. But isn't chase-cam an inherent problem with this question, as the camera itself pivots to keep up with the body of the car, making it by definition looking like a centre-pivot? Ie, every game looks like it uses a centre pivot when viewing chase cam?

Asking another way, have you encountered any racing game which does not look like a centre-pivot when using chase-cam? RBR for example?

Chase-cam is also the reason people claim the same thing about DR2.0...

To me, some games like AC have a chase cam with zero yaw tolerance, so it's constantly whipping around on control changes and makes it look far more pivot based. Games like Forza are a bit looser and act on a spring force, you can make small movements and the camera will slowly pan back to center which feels much more natural. It's kind of funny, it shouldn't be that hard to implement, but a bunch of games just don't do it.

But I always thought the "Pivot based turning" criticism to be exceptionally vague and a useless criticism.

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2 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

@JorritVD You perhaps misunderstand me. I'm suggesting the chase cam is the wrong cam to appraise the 'centre pivot' question, because it misleads the viewer into thinking there is one. Not that the cam has anything to do with the car physics itself.

It's not the ideal view and you can see the same pivoting element from the TV replay as well. However, if you check the chase cam footage of the Yaris the moment I need to correct the car big time, it becomes really obvious, in my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

Really? The devs of the engine itself in a game known for vehicular combat and a racing game aren't to be used as a reference? How does that make sense? It's not a matter of using unrealistic values, it's a matter of the physics engine being exceptionally poor and buggy. It's like arguing that Arma 3 has good vehicle physics when a tank going over a curb has a 50/50 chance of flinging it literally a km into the air. It just doesn't.

 

For the love of God, please no. Please, for the sake of all things holy, dear God, no. Don't request this. This is why all the DLC for DR2 was just DR1.

R3E has the lowest userbase simply because of it's stupid, convoluted, and ludicrous payment methods and car packs. ACC is not a forever title, and never was planned to be. Quit trying to turn everything into iRacing.

I'm not saying it's the most ideal way to go but you know, a system similar to ACC wouldn't be a bad thing. You do this for a few years adding big seasonal DLC content and some minor DLC inbetween (all reasonably priced).

In the meantime, the team can work on the next big iteration for 3 years or so. And having that much time to develop the new release, it could and should be a massive upgrade. Also during that time span, the devs can add other improvements (physics etc) to the live game via patches. There's the possibility for crossover where some of the elements being developed for the next title might help improve parts of the live game as well. I'm thinking of engine audio for example. 

I sincerely believe that is a better approach than coming out each year with a new title. It'll be cheaper for the players as well in the end. Instead of buying a full game with lots of recycled content at full price, you only have to buy the DLC packs.

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10 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Really? The devs of the engine itself in a game known for vehicular combat and a racing game aren't to be used as a reference? How does that make sense? It's not a matter of using unrealistic values, it's a matter of the physics engine being exceptionally poor and buggy. It's like arguing that Arma 3 has good vehicle physics when a tank going over a curb has a 50/50 chance of flinging it literally a km into the air. It just doesn't.

So... The physics of DR couldn't be imported into Frostbite. Even with the assistance of DICE. You seem to be quite certain of this, have you actually used Frostbite, or know someone who has? 

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8 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

I'm not saying it's the most ideal way to go but you know, a system similar to ACC wouldn't be a bad thing. You do this for a few years adding big seasonal DLC content and some minor DLC inbetween (all reasonably priced).

In the meantime, the team can work on the next big iteration for 3 years or so. And having that much time to develop the new release, it could and should be a massive upgrade. Also during that time span, the devs can add other improvements (physics etc) to the live game via patches. There's the possibility for crossover where some of the elements being developed for the next title might help improve parts of the live game as well. I'm thinking of engine audio for example. 

I sincerely believe that is a better approach than coming out each year with a new title. It'll be cheaper for the players as well in the end. Instead of buying a full game with lots of recycled content at full price, you only have to buy the DLC packs.

OR, they could not, and just let you buy a game without having to buy a whole bunch of DLC for it. They're already on a 2-3 year dev cycle as is. Supporting a game for 3 years believe it or not does in fact take resources away from creating newer titles. On one hand, it's cool that ARMA 3 is still getting content updates 8 years after launch, but people have been asking for a major engine overhaul or new game it's desperately needed for the past 6. And you have to buy the DLC for a bunch of online matches.

Again, they're already on a 2-3 year cycle, and they haven't done anything like that. And again that's pulling resources away from the next title unless they're shared resources, in which case it may as well be an annual or bi-annual title anyway.

That's not necessarily true, and there's nothing saying you have to buy every released title. Either way, it's a small cost to eat, especially when most sim games have well over $60 in DLC with cars being a few bucks each.

 

21 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

So... The physics of DR couldn't be imported into Frostbite. Even with the assistance of DICE. You seem to be quite certain of this, have you actually used Frostbite, or know someone who has? 

Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning? If you keep inputting the same formula of 2+2 and keep getting 5 as a result, there's a fairly high chance the next time you input the equation it still won't be correct. Nothing done in Frostbite has ever had decent vehicle dynamics, much less stable physics in general.

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2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Have you ever heard of deductive reasoning? If you keep inputting the same formula of 2+2 and keep getting 5 as a result, there's a fairly high chance the next time you input the equation it still won't be correct. Nothing done in Frostbite has ever had decent vehicle dynamics, much less stable physics in general.

As I figured, you're talking decisively about something you actually know nothing concrete about.

DICE made the Rallisport challenge games, we have an actual developer talking about Frostbite being good for vehicles, we haven't seen any failed attempt at serious vehicle physics in a Frostbite game. Ergo there is no evidence it can't be done.

Here's deductive reasoning for you: As I said initially, it may not necessarily be a bad thing if DR3 was in Frostbite. 

 

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[OFF Topic]

I have seen that news : https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/death-stranding-could-be-the-first-ps5-game-with-ultra-wide-support/

I am wondering how a such feature could be implemented in PS5 and would it make old games compatible with Ultrawide (like Dirt Rally 2 for instance) ? 

I still have a little dream to have an ultra wide screen in my gaming rig for PS5.

I am a huge noob with that kind of technology, so please, be kind with me 😄

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On 7/10/2021 at 11:11 PM, JZStudios said:

Maybe for the immediate title I could see. EA's logic is that all of their studios should use the same engine so they can all work together, which in theory is fine, but in reality is awful when it's only designed for a singular purpose.

That depends, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order (released late 2019) uses Unreal.

I don't think Frostbite is "mandatory", especially now that EA have access to two high quality racing-specific engines (EGO and Madness).

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2 hours ago, JamesMcAdam1987 said:

I am wondering how a such feature could be implemented in PS5 and would it make old games compatible with Ultrawide (like Dirt Rally 2 for instance) ? 

If anyone here has played DiRT Rally 2.0 on PS4 with a monitor that's not 16x9 that would be a good reference.

There's no resolution selector in-game (Xbox One X has a "4K mode" but you don't set the specific resolution or screen ratio), so if the game automatically adjusts depending on what you've got plugged in then maybe it could work.

Theoretically, it would be possible now, just need somebody with a PS4/PS5 and an Ultrawide monitor to confirm 😄 

 

I bet what happens though is that a 16:9 image gets stretched, whereas Kojima Productions may be developing a bespoke option for Death Stranding.

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2 hours ago, PJTierney said:

I bet what happens though is that a 16:9 image gets stretched, whereas Kojima Productions may be developing a bespoke option for Death Stranding.

Yeh, that's what I am thinking. It gets stretched, so it is ugly in some ways. But if Sony adds a Ultrawide update to its system, do you think DR2 would need a bespoke update too, or would it work alone ? 🧐

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11 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

As I figured, you're talking decisively about something you actually know nothing concrete about.

DICE made the Rallisport challenge games, we have an actual developer talking about Frostbite being good for vehicles, we haven't seen any failed attempt at serious vehicle physics in a Frostbite game. Ergo there is no evidence it can't be done.

Here's deductive reasoning for you: As I said initially, it may not necessarily be a bad thing if DR3 was in Frostbite. 

As I figured you're making **** up and putting it in my mouth.

Just because they made racing games decades ago on a completely different engine doesn't mean they'll do so now. It's a completely different company now, how many people still at Dice worked on those games? If Frostbite was such an amazing physics title EA wouldn't have had to pull Criterion entirely off their own project to try and fix Frostbite's terrible physics and work as a support group for all of the vehicle handling projects. But somehow to you, that's not a "serious attempt at vehicle physics." Once again, vehicle physics are fundamentally based on physics, which Frostbite DOES NOT do well, and frequently freaks out, glitches, and breaks. I never said it couldn't be done, I said it's exceptionally unlikely because there's never been any proof before that it's even remotely capable of doing so.

That's not deductive reasoning. That's not how it works. I don't even know what that is, but your making a terrible argument. You're arguing that despite years of borked vehicle dynamics across multiple games and genres with an entire studio (Actually two if you also include DICE LA) attempting to fix it that the same input of 2+2 will magically equally 4.

 

5 hours ago, PJTierney said:

That depends, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order (released late 2019) uses Unreal.

I don't think Frostbite is "mandatory", especially now that EA have access to two high quality racing-specific engines (EGO and Madness).

EA may be loosening up on it after all of the other studios Frostbite projects failed for multiple engine reasons. Or maybe they told EA they flat out wouldn't use it or it wouldn't work. I don't know, but EA was pushing Frostbite on everything.

 

5 hours ago, PJTierney said:

I bet what happens though is that a 16:9 image gets stretched

No, it'll just pillarbox it like playing anything else on a screen that isn't the native ratio.

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17 hours ago, JZStudios said:

As I figured you're making **** up and putting it in my mouth.

Doing a fine job of that all on your ownsome, soldier! 😃

Let's make this simple.

- What is an example of a driving game with serious, complicated physics, that was attempted on Frostbite and failed due to the engine? 

- Do you have any concrete evidence that vehicle physics like the DR series cannot be imported into Frostbite?

Edit: Moreover, do you realise how unlikely your position is here? You're absolutely adamant that DR3 will be forced to run on Frostbite. Do you really, seriously believe that EA and Codemasters would do this, AND give it physics like Battlefield or NFS?

 

 

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