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Right, enough!

I, Jake, officially CHALLENGE you, @JZStudios to a DUEL by rally.

We shall settle the matter of who is the greater absurdist in devious forum malarkey, by the manly art of rally gunplay.

Will you accept, or art thou CRAVEN?

 

 

 

R.jpg

Edited by Jake Cushing
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14 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

@JZStudios You're simplifying what I'm saying to suit your purposes. The quotes are not me saying simply "It's a bad idea to port over the old tracks". It's actually saying that there's probably no avoiding it, but people will complain (and we all know they will), unless there are some new stages.  You've even quoted me pointing out how it would be a shame to not drive Scotland again. 

I suggest not making blanket and adamant statements like "It's going to be in Frostbite, and the physics will therefore be bad, because Battlefield", or "we know the stages in 2.0 are high fidelity enough to be ported over". Or at least not flipping out and getting personal when someone takes those statements to issue.

The resulting arguments will upset old Uncle Rodger, and we don't want that.

You literally did not say that at all. I'm not suiting my purposes, I'm quoting exactly what you said. You should be clearer about what you're saying if you don't want misunderstanding. Saying that porting tracks over is WHINGE leads the only assumption to being that it's a bad idea, especially since you disagreed with my initial suggestion of adding new content on top of existing content.

You can't disagree with me saying that porting content is a bad idea and then flip around and say that they should port content. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Are you even reading what I'm writing at this point? How you manage to completely ignore what I say in very clear and concise wordings is pretty impressive. Stating something is likely to happen doesn't mean it will happen. Pointing out that Frostbite has never had good or even remotely stable physics isn't something that's going to just change overnight. The chances of a Frostbite game having stable physics are roughly equivalent to California voting red. It's technically possible, maybe, but highly unlikely to actually happen. I guess you think the DR2 tracks are total garbage. You're acting like something that's already in a PBR pipeline on a similar level as laser scanning will immediately be outdated.

13 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

And @JZStudios in the event you wish to continue the, ahem, 'debate', I suggest we resolve the matter with a one-stage online RACE to determine the WINNER of all arguments. @PJTierney can this be facilitated? I have no idea how the online system works. 

There's not even an argument. I made a statement, you disagreed with me, and then you agreed with me. Your argument was fundamentally flawed and it's weird that you can't see that by reading your own comments.

 

12 hours ago, F2CMaDMaXX said:

I must have missed 60 minutes.....   Where did you see dev's being forced to use it? (not saying it didn't happen, but common knowledge it does not appear to be - public!=common)

https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfall/comments/7c0hqo/ea_forces_all_their_studios_to_use_the_frostbite/

There's actual quotes and sources in that. EA forced Respawn, Visceral, BioWare, Ghost Games, whoever makes Fifa. Then again, there's also a post from a former BioWare GM who said they chose to do it with encouragement from EA to have a standard engine. Doesn't change the fact that Frostbite killed Visceral and Ghost and ruined ME and maybe DA:I. Oh yeah, and Anthem. Completely forget that "Bob Dylan of video games" existed.

12 hours ago, F2CMaDMaXX said:

Why do you think that DR3 is going to be on Frostbite?  Do you think they would waste all the dev time so far to move it over to another engine?

Not a very difficult argument to make if you're a dev, hey, do we pay licensing for our game, or do we use the in-house engine to save time/money?  I really don't think *any* forcing was required.  And yes, Fifa uses Frostbite.

If these aren't the points you're making them, then either don't bother, or show your working as no one else is following.

See above. If you want more examples of devs making stupid choices to swap engines mid project, I suggest watching Matt McMuscles Wha Happun? series.

Sure, I never said it wasn't. When I first heard they were doing it I thought it was cool, but DICE only built the engine solely for Battlefield and all of the other studios and former employees have said that it's awful for anything else. FIFA makes bank so it's the most supported title, probably even more so than BF considering how it always launches as a major ********. BF4 had long standing issues that had to be fixed by the former MOH team a solid year after launch.

But again, the why they're doing it doesn't matter, it just matters that they might be doing it, and Frostbite is not a good engine for it.

 

7 hours ago, RodgerDavies said:

I really hope all this conjecture about Frostbite is actually just a clandestine plot to annoy PJ into dropping some distracting gossip somewhere. Secretly, JZS and Jake have been meeting up once a week wearing fake moustaches and planning this squabble

DAMN! He's found our ploy!

Serious woman in black blouse and with fake mustache | Free Photo

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6 hours ago, PJTierney said:

There's a few nice additions to DIRT 5 that I'd like to drive in a rally game.

  • Audi TT Safari
  • FIAT Abarth 124 Rally
  • Porsche 924 GTS Rallye
  • Porsche 959 Prodrive Rally Raid
  • Renault Clio Williams Maxi
  • ҆KODA Fabia Rally2 Evo (updated R5 from DR2)

 

The DLC cars are mainly SUVs, Rallycross cars, Dakar-style cars and fictional ones. All the traditional rally stuff is in the base game.

Ah, I remember most of those from launch and added to my 'hoped for' list. I didn't realise the Skoda was the never update, I'm sure that'll come in handy somewhere down the line...

 

Having just found the list, I wouldn't say no to the Lotus Exige or Alpine A110 either (in GT4 spec) - I didn't realise that was the 'new' Alpine before. The '60s Mustang would be fun too, but that wouldn't really fit nicely into any class so I'd probably leave off if I was making a wishlist. Which I am.

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6 hours ago, PJTierney said:

.....The DLC cars are mainly SUVs, Rallycross cars, Dakar-style cars and fictional ones. All the traditional rally stuff is in the base game.

I have to imagine with the separation of Dirt teams, that car acquisition would fall to the team they "belong" to; Rally cars in DR and let's say more fun cars in Dirt - any allowable and/or easily changed licensing that lasts long enough for a cross-over car can be added to the other one.

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1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

That's a post labelled "Your opinion is not a fact"

It's from 4 years ago, talking about things that had happened in previous years, none of it mentions being forced to use the engine, it's some dev's saying that it does vehicles very well, but not the things it wasn't designed to do.  It's very common knowledge that the engine is hard to work with, but is also continually developed and added to in order to broaden it's function.

They broadly said that it couldn't do 3rd person stuff very well at all, neither of the two Star wars games had been released at that point (it's so old) and both of those were very successful. 

 

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

.... Doesn't change the fact that Frostbite killed Visceral and Ghost and ruined ME and maybe DA:I. Oh yeah, and Anthem. Completely forget that "Bob Dylan of video games" existed.

..

 

That's 110% subjective. (the reason, not whether the game was killed)

 

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

....

Sure, I never said it wasn't. When I first heard they were doing it I thought it was cool, but DICE only built the engine solely for Battlefield and all of the other studios and former employees have said that it's awful for anything else. ....

But again, the why they're doing it doesn't matter, it just matters that they might be doing it, and Frostbite is not a good engine for it.

.....

Dice never built Frostbite 2 for only Battlefield, it was built to be all/many disciplines - whether it's hard to work with or any good at it, isn't the point.

 

All this info is years out of date, based on info from mid 2010's, the engine isn't even close to being the same, it's not even just the next iteration, it's at least two past then, with multiple games "not suited" to the engine, having been released since.

One of the old old quotes in there even states it's good at vehicles.

 

Don't keep mixing your subjective feelings with objective facts, it's not people misunderstanding you, it's your comprehension of what others are writing, it's incredibly jaded and it shows in your partly confusing answers.

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9 hours ago, JZStudios said:

You literally did not say that at all. I'm not suiting my purposes, I'm quoting exactly what you said. You should be clearer about what you're saying if you don't want misunderstanding. Saying that porting tracks over is WHINGE leads the only assumption to being that it's a bad idea

Is this what being married is like?

Sir, cease the histrionics, they are unbecoming.

And accept my challenge of manly, righteous resolution on the duelling fields. I demand satisfaction.

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For those that are interested in my first impressions of WRC10, I was finally able to finish the video and upload it to YouTube.
Quite a lot of work it was, to be honest. There are also a couple of comparisons with DR2.0 in there for good measure.
I hope those that watch it, will enjoy it. 

 

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2 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

For those that are interested in my first impressions of WRC10, I was finally able to finish the video and upload it to YouTube.
Quite a lot of work it was, to be honest. There are also a couple of comparisons with DR2.0 in there for good measure.
I hope those that watch it, will enjoy it. 

 

This is the first time I see a 28 minutes video titled "First impressions" and I have to say, incredible job! I will surely watch your full review before I finally choose what to do with WRC10 (haven't bought it yet, might pick with discount). 

 

On another note, @PJTierney is it you who runs the formula1game account on Instagram? 

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7 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

@PJTierney the Greek stages in DR2.0, might they be sections of the Gravia stage they are running today in the WRC Acropolis Rally? I'm watching WRC+ and I recognise quite a few sections on their onboards. 

Hmm, I think you might be right. That hairpin section in the middle certainly looks familiar.

 

image.png

 

DR2:

RY-GR_greece.jpg?time=1631371548706

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1 hour ago, Carpa01 said:

On another note, @PJTierney is it you who runs the formula1game account on Instagram? 

No, @jennyannem¬†handles F1 socials ūüôā¬†

I just take the cool screenshots for her to use, and occasionally make videos too ūüôā¬†

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1 hour ago, Carpa01 said:

This is the first time I see a 28 minutes video titled "First impressions" and I have to say, incredible job! I will surely watch your full review before I finally choose what to do with WRC10 (haven't bought it yet, might pick with discount). 

 

On another note, @PJTierney is it you who runs the formula1game account on Instagram? 

Thanks, mate! Appreciate the compliment.
And I think it's a wise decision to hold off on buying WRC10 and perhaps pick it up during the sales in a couple of months, if you're still on the fence about it.

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40 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

No, @jennyannem¬†handles F1 socials ūüôā¬†

I just take the cool screenshots for her to use, and occasionally make videos too ūüôā¬†

ūüėē

The account started teasing the addition of Portimao by inserting a letter in italics in every post description... I thought if that was you we could be onto something 

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1 hour ago, PJTierney said:

Hmm, I think you might be right. That hairpin section in the middle certainly looks familiar.

 

image.png

 

DR2:

RY-GR_greece.jpg?time=1631371548706

There's a guide on Steam that shows the exact locations of the stages in DiRT Rally (the original one) 

Since Greece is also a location in DR1 I checked there and it seems that the stage is in the Peloponnese region of Greece, while Acropolis 2021 takes place further north (closer to Athens) 

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1 hour ago, PJTierney said:

Hmm, I think you might be right. That hairpin section in the middle certainly looks familiar.

 

image.png

 

DR2:

RY-GR_greece.jpg?time=1631371548706

 

The stage we have in DR is called Ghymno and it's not part of this year's rally:

Ghymno.thumb.png.6c1c2e243ba3026165c8c2b5e19252e5.png

RY-GR_greece.thumb.jpg.c3238f2d26b298b5689e795a77928890.jpg

 

The stage mentioned by @SRD_SimVansevenant is in a different region of Greece:

Greek_stages.thumb.png.d7dc5634b6c295157a0157c52cf32272.png

 

2:30 hairpin section

6:06 start of one of the stages in DR2

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:55 AM, F2CMaDMaXX said:

it's some dev's saying that it does vehicles very well, but not the things it wasn't designed to do.

It explicitly does not say that.

 

On 9/10/2021 at 10:55 AM, F2CMaDMaXX said:

They broadly said that it couldn't do 3rd person stuff very well at all, neither of the two Star wars games had been released at that point (it's so old) and both of those were very successful. 

That's 110% subjective. (the reason, not whether the game was killed)

Right, when all of these devs have gone on record saying they're studio and game failed because of the engine, that means it's not the engines fault. And all of these studios under EA using the engine, means that they are unlikely to continue doing that.

And Anthem along with other failed 3rd person games like MEA came out after SW Battlefront, but like, **** facts, that **** doesn't matter. All that matters is you proving me wrong by completely misinterpreting an analogy. And my reasoning is confusing.

Let's look at the timeline shall we?

  1. Dice makes Frostbite 2 for BF4 in 2013, and only BF4. Holy ****, it's been that long?
  2. Ghost/Criterion Games makes NFS Rivals, it's buggy as hell.
  3. BioWare launches DA:I in 2014, has no basic functionality for RPG systems and has to be made from scratch. I remember it not being well received, don't know why. All I know is the BioWare devs said it was hell, along with dev on ME:A and Anthem.
  4. Hardline releases in March 2015 from Visceral, they say it's a pain in the ass to work with and the Star Wars game they were working on was cancelled due to problems with the engine and Hardlines poor reception, because the engine sucks. They get shuttered.
  5. SW Battlefront launches in November 2015, developed by DICE. I know it was a ******** at launch, don't remember why.
  6. Need For Speed reboot happened in 2015 on consoles and 2016 on PC. It wasn't great.
  7. BF1 2016, the usual BF bugs return en masse. Pretty sure they didn't fix anything.
  8. Mass Effect Andromeda 2017. Well documented.
  9. NFS Payback in 2017, also ****.
  10. SW Battlefront 2 Nov 2017, issues mostly unrelated to engine, also developed by Dice.
  11. Battlefield V, Nov 2018, amid all of the other bad press, once again it launched with the usual BF bugs.
  12. Anthem Feb 22, 2019. Also well documented. It's been abandoned and I'm amazed BioWare isn't shuttered. Take note that this is a 3rd person game done after 2 SW BF games, ME:A, and DA:I. It's still ****.
  13. NFS Heat, 2019, also ****, support dropped and Ghost shuttered.

That's at least 13 games and every one that isn't BF of either variety has been ****. Some have, and any decent ones are more in spite of the engine, not because of it. And the devs have publicly said that the engine sucks to use. But yeah, I have a vendetta against it and not looking at anything recent for actual information.

But you're right, 13 failures over the past decade up to as recent as 2 years ago is basing "opinion" on outdated information. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

On 9/10/2021 at 7:11 PM, Jake Cushing said:

Is this what being married is like?

Sir, cease the histrionics, they are unbecoming.

And accept my challenge of manly, righteous resolution on the duelling fields. I demand satisfaction.

All I'm saying is to be concise. I'm not the confusing one here.

And I've only just pulled my wheel out for the first time months after having my monitors sitting on blocks so they're actually at eye level.

 

Speaking of, @PJTierney you still playing Forza 7? Trying to find a decent source of steering wheel based tunes.

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5 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Speaking of, @PJTierney you still playing Forza 7? Trying to find a decent source of steering wheel based tunes.

No and not sure of any wheel-based tuners I can recommend either, sorry.

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23 hours ago, Von4wd said:

 

 

Looks like they removed that massive rock (6:49) I destroyed so many radiators on. That rock certainly is one of the meanest rocks or objects you can find on a stage. There's another one a bit later in the stage that is quite dangerous, especially if you drive the reverse stage. 

It's so cool to recognise stages in real rally that you drove in the game. 

Edit: Didn't realise the video is from 2012. That rock came into play later then. 

 

On the Frostbite matter: To say a game - or in this case 13 games - failed because of the engine seems like an easy explanation for complicated things and just an assertion to me. I'm not saying it's wrong because I don't know, but how do you determine that? And when do you consider a game as 'failed'? Now, let's assume some or most of these games really failed. Couldn't there be 1000 factors that contribute to such a failure? 

Edited by ricxxV2
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1 hour ago, ricxxV2 said:

On the Frostbite matter: To say a game - or in this case 13 games - failed because of the engine seems like an easy explanation for complicated things and just an assertion to me. I'm not saying it's wrong because I don't know, but how do you determine that? And when do you consider a game as 'failed'? Now, let's assume some or most of these games really failed. Couldn't there be 1000 factors that contribute to such a failure? 

It's an engine created by DICE for Battlefield, and it honestly wasn't even great at that. All kinds of bugs, glitches, physics issues, etc. along with being very hard to work with. The only thing it was initially designed for was a FPS multiplayer game, and the only thing it really does well is look good and run pretty fast. And semi-large open areas. When other studios like BioWare tried to make games on it, it didn't have anything they could use other than the rendering engine. And considering how buggy and broken Anthem was it never seemed to get any better. And again, former Visceral and BioWare devs have said it was the major cause of a lot of issues and development delays. Even Visceral's own Battlefield game was riddled with bugs and issues and it caused the cancellation of their Star Wars game.

The only games on that list that are half decent and stable are the DICE developed ones. Even then "Fix it DICE!" isn't a saying for nothing. As to knowing if games failed, critical reception, amount of brokenness at launch, and EA shuttering studios is a pretty good indication. EA isn't shuttering successful studios.

The guys here are acting like I have a biased personal vendetta against the engine, and I don't. My buddy and I play the hell out of Battlefield, waiting for 2042. But I can almost guarantee it's going to have the same bugs, glitches, fucky physics, and issues as BF4. Based on some leaked gameplay footage I've seen I know some of those issues are still present.

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JZ, you've got to understand that whilst we're not saying you're wrong, you're also not posting any proof, you just keep 'trumping' it and saying, everyone knows.

 

‚ÄúWhenever you‚Äôre trying to do something that fits the engine‚ÄĒvehicles, for example‚ÄĒFrostbite handles that extremely well,‚ÄĚ the developer said. ‚ÄúBut when you‚Äôre building something that the engine is not made for, this is where it becomes difficult.‚ÄĚ

That's from the first quote, i'm not quite sure how else you could interpret that.

 

As ricxx said, there is quite the difference between a game not being very good and/or full of bugs, and then somehow equating that to it's the engines fault.  Don't make that kind of jump, you're falling flat trying it.

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