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Good points, however are rally fans (and hardcore fans like us) reduced to purchase decisions due to pretty colors on a box, (the back not the front of the box)? Is this console-like thinking, it seems that the trend is moving away from arcade an a bit past the simcade racers, with the likes of Assetto Corsa, etc on console releases.  
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If you take the iRacing spotter function as an example, your co-driver would get a real time feed of the stage and have a dedicated chat channel for two way communication. iRacing also provide a spectator function which again is a real time feed of the event where spectators can chat amongst themselves. This seems a potentially attractive option for leagues wishing to run an event where driver/co-driver teams would take turns to run. The preparation for the event by the pairing compiling pace notes would make it a proper team effort.

I guess the downside is that as drivers get to learn stages like they do a race circuit the role of the co-driver diminishes.

Your last sentence is spot on. Theres no real point in having your mate co-drive, if you know the stages. It would only come alive if a random stage generator type thing existed, but thats not going to happen...
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gfRally said:
Good points, however are rally fans (and hardcore fans like us) reduced to purchase decisions due to pretty colors on a box, (the back not the front of the box)? Is this console-like thinking, it seems that the trend is moving away from arcade an a bit past the simcade racers, with the likes of Assetto Corsa, etc on console releases.  
I don't think it's an issue of console thinking. Rally stages don't have a layout that is remembered for years and treated as legendary, aside from few places, like Ouninpohja or Colin's Crest in Sweden. Due to that, the layout of the stages (and the name that goes with it) is no longer a selling point and you need to differentiate the stages in a... different way. And this is where a completely different environment comes in place, not just slightly different, like New Zealand and Wales.

Furthermore, rally stages are all about them being always different, the road surface changing as well etc. You can't sell a layout that is changing all the time after all. No rally each year is exactly the same as it was last year, therefore with Rally you're selling environment. If anything, I would say that the rally fans are a more difficult bunch to sell something to. With circuit racers you just make few tracks and you're done, with Rally... well, suffice to say, we're still waiting for 100% length accurate stages.
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@RyuMakkuro 

Ok again good points.  With all these considered, how could the developers improve the stages/locations?  I mean with the environment/palette limitations what would be a solution to adding more rally, other than adding RX or Trucks, etc (strictly keeping to stage rally)? 
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gfRally said:
@RyuMakkuro 

Ok again good points.  With all these considered, how could the developers improve the stages/locations?  I mean with the environment/palette limitations what would be a solution to adding more rally, other than adding RX or Trucks, etc (strictly keeping to stage rally)? 
Longer and more. Nothing else. That's the issue with Rally in games. It's effectively the ultimate time attack mode. Only way to "improve" it, is to make the stages longer, more realistic (deformable roads) etc. In other words, things that make the stages more interesting and challenging.

The RX part of the game is where they can play with modes and do something like the Arcade mode from CMR2.0 with Fireball cheat :D 
teknoid85 said:
taste my cup of tea: 

deformable road and soft roadsidebanks   

that would be orgasmic :D 
Seeing as we already have soft roadside banks in Sweden, I assume you're close to ejaculating? xD
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gfRally said:
Good points, however are rally fans (and hardcore fans like us) reduced to purchase decisions due to pretty colors on a box, (the back not the front of the box)? Is this console-like thinking, it seems that the trend is moving away from arcade an a bit past the simcade racers, with the likes of Assetto Corsa, etc on console releases.  
I don't think it's an issue of console thinking. Rally stages don't have a layout that is remembered for years and treated as legendary, aside from few places, like Ouninpohja or Colin's Crest in Sweden. Due to that, the layout of the stages (and the name that goes with it) is no longer a selling point and you need to differentiate the stages in a... different way. And this is where a completely different environment comes in place, not just slightly different, like New Zealand and Wales.

Furthermore, rally stages are all about them being always different, the road surface changing as well etc. You can't sell a layout that is changing all the time after all. No rally each year is exactly the same as it was last year, therefore with Rally you're selling environment. If anything, I would say that the rally fans are a more difficult bunch to sell something to. With circuit racers you just make few tracks and you're done, with Rally... well, suffice to say, we're still waiting for 100% length accurate stages.
for me only rally racing gives me the thrill, especially with dirt rally

i found circuit racing soooooo booooring, also in real life.       F1 and GT SUCKS!

ok, now kill me :D
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Well for a lot of motorsport fans, "colours on a box" are not important its how they actually play that is relevant, but then codemasters do need to appeal to people who dont know about rallying as well.
@RyuMakkuro You're right about the fact rally games are harder, because the very essence of rally is driving a road you dont know (at least not well) but
obviously a game cant make enough stages so you only run each one a few times in your life, like a real planet can provide. Thats what makes a rally game harder to perfect than circuit racing, those games can easily give you the same experience as real life, as in real life repeating a track over and over is the whole point.

Wales and NZ stages are not "just slightly different". Mexico for example is very similar to greece, San Remo is similar to Monaco (just in summer), lots of European Tarmac rallies are very similar. In conparison to them, Wales and NZ are hugely different.
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austinb said:
Wales and NZ stages are not "just slightly different". Mexico for example is very similar to greece, San Remo is similar to Monaco (just in summer), lots of European Tarmac rallies are very similar. In conparison to them, Wales and NZ are hugely different.
Yes, but those other examples aren't present opposed to each other in DiRT Rally either for the same reason (plus the whole issue of budgets).

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tbtstt said:
I'd also like to know if the rumours are true and he will be running a Focus in the World RX. 
Yes please. I'm sick and tired of the Fiesta, bring on the proper rally Ford :D 
I must confess I much prefer the look of the Fiesta over the Focus. Ford will be keen to market the Focus RS though, so I using the Focus would make sense from a PR point.
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tbtstt said:
tbtstt said:
I'd also like to know if the rumours are true and he will be running a Focus in the World RX. 
Yes please. I'm sick and tired of the Fiesta, bring on the proper rally Ford :D 
I must confess I much prefer the look of the Fiesta over the Focus. Ford will be keen to market the Focus RS though, so I using the Focus would make sense from a PR point.
The Fiesta is bigger then the Chevette, Sunbeam & Escort which all felt like real rally cars back in their day. I think it helped having the homologation specials as road going cars. These days it seems from a size perspective the Fiesta and Polo work as rally cars yet the roadgoing top performance versions are reserved for the more expensive Focus and Golf models. Obviously this is to maximise profits but it seems a shame we can't have the rally car matching the road car, then perhaps we wouldn't feel as if rally cars had become fast shopping cars?
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tbtstt said:
tbtstt said:
I'd also like to know if the rumours are true and he will be running a Focus in the World RX. 
Yes please. I'm sick and tired of the Fiesta, bring on the proper rally Ford :D 
I must confess I much prefer the look of the Fiesta over the Focus. Ford will be keen to market the Focus RS though, so I using the Focus would make sense from a PR point.
The Fiesta is bigger then the Chevette, Sunbeam & Escort which all felt like real rally cars back in their day. I think it helped having the homologation specials as road going cars. These days it seems from a size perspective the Fiesta and Polo work as rally cars yet the roadgoing top performance versions are reserved for the more expensive Focus and Golf models. Obviously this is to maximise profits but it seems a shame we can't have the rally car matching the road car, then perhaps we wouldn't feel as if rally cars had become fast shopping cars?
Fully agree! I have been hoping for a number of years that Ford would produce an RS version of the Fiesta but, as you say, that sort of treatment seems to be reserved for the bigger models in the range.
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tbtstt said:
tbtstt said:
I'd also like to know if the rumours are true and he will be running a Focus in the World RX. 
Yes please. I'm sick and tired of the Fiesta, bring on the proper rally Ford :D 
I must confess I much prefer the look of the Fiesta over the Focus. Ford will be keen to market the Focus RS though, so I using the Focus would make sense from a PR point.

That would mean M-Sport would have to develop a brand new car for RX...
I would not have anything against and I actially quite like the look of the Focus RS. In RX spec it definitely would not need a 'DRIFT' button :)

Now that we've mentioned I wonder if Codies and World RX are planning to top up DiRT Rally with some RX content for the console release....
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austinb said:
Wales and NZ stages are not "just slightly different". Mexico for example is very similar to greece, San Remo is similar to Monaco (just in summer), lots of European Tarmac rallies are very similar. In conparison to them, Wales and NZ are hugely different.
They are similar indeed but realise that New Zealand is just as similar to Wales. I've watched through the entire video you linked and if it weren't for the title, I would've easily assumed it was Wales when it isn't raining for a longer while. If you want to see something different, compare Wales with Australia. COMPLETELY different.
I think you assume that everyone say it's only the issue of NZ and Wales being similar. Hell no, Argentina, Mexico and Greece are basically all the same, with the only difference being how dense the forest is. San Remo, Corsica, Monte Carlo, same, basically the same, though MC has snow, so there's that. We could go on and on like this for a long time. Point is, NZ is similar to Wales. Face it.

Also, some people say that Poland looks similar to Finland... ehh, nope. Take the Germany stages we have in the game, add some lakes here and there and swap the tarmac for a dusty gravel and tarmac mixture. Done, you have the 2015 Polish rally. Germany and Poland have a rather similar flora. Though Poland is most likely not as "flat" as Germany is, in terms of land layout.
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tbtstt said:
tbtstt said:
I'd also like to know if the rumours are true and he will be running a Focus in the World RX. 
Yes please. I'm sick and tired of the Fiesta, bring on the proper rally Ford :D 
I must confess I much prefer the look of the Fiesta over the Focus. Ford will be keen to market the Focus RS though, so I using the Focus would make sense from a PR point.

That would mean M-Sport would have to develop a brand new car for RX...
I would not have anything against and I actially quite like the look of the Focus RS. In RX spec it definitely would not need a 'DRIFT' button :)
Rallycross supercars already come equipped with a drift button...



 ...it's the pedal on the right! :smiley: 

Now that we've mentioned I wonder if Codies and World RX are planning to top up DiRT Rally with some RX content for the console release....
I wonder that as well. I think we definitely need another community day at Codemasters to verify the new content if that's the case. ;)
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austinb said:
the very essence of rally is driving a road you dont know (at least not well) but
obviously a game cant make enough stages so you only run each one a few times in your life, like a real planet can provide. Thats what makes a rally game harder to perfect than circuit racing, those games can easily give you the same experience as real life, as in real life repeating a track over and over is the whole point.
Rally is point to point racing on public roads, not knowing the track is just a side effect of the format of the sport. I don't think that's the point of rallying. You get a co-drive because you don't know the track. The point is getting from A to B the fastest
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Didzis said:
Rally is point to point racing on public roads, not knowing the track is just a side effect of the format of the sport. I don't think that's the point of rallying. You get a co-drive because you don't know the track. The point is getting from A to B the fastest
It's not the point of the rallying, but it's part of the essence that makes rallying what it is ;)
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Ok i see that im wasting my time with the NZ thing, think whatever you like, PS corsica is also nothing like monaco it is much wider and faster, but again i will leave it at that.

Didzis said:
austinb said:
the very essence of rally is driving a road you dont know (at least not well) but
obviously a game cant make enough stages so you only run each one a few times in your life, like a real planet can provide. Thats what makes a rally game harder to perfect than circuit racing, those games can easily give you the same experience as real life, as in real life repeating a track over and over is the whole point.
Rally is point to point racing on public roads, not knowing the track is just a side effect of the format of the sport. I don't think that's the point of rallying. You get a co-drive because you don't know the track. The point is getting from A to B the fastest
-Actually its illegal to rally on public roads in the UK. (Edit: Turns out that law changed recently, but rallys arent always on public roads.)
-Exactly, the Side effect of the sport, i said the essence of it, they mean a similar thing, i did not say that not knowing was the point of rally, read my post again.

And yeah i know some stages are used again and again, but these same stages often change (not so much tarmac) plus theres a big difference between a wrc driver doing a stage 20-40 times in his life to a circuit driver doing anything up to 2000 laps or so, that is my point. 
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Didzis said:
Rally is point to point racing on public roads, not knowing the track is just a side effect of the format of the sport. I don't think that's the point of rallying. You get a co-drive because you don't know the track. The point is getting from A to B the fastest
It's not the point of the rallying, but it's part of the essence that makes rallying what it is ;)
I just watched the RAC Rally from 1983 on DVD. A completely different era but a couple of quotes from the drivers struck a chord:

Mouton: "I prefer (RAC) rally, because for me rallying is exactly to drive and not to know where you have to go and to try to be the first and this is very exciting”

Mikkola: "RAC is my favourite rally of the year. You have to read the road, how it is going and it is more demanding for the driver”


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teknoid85 said:
for me only rally racing gives me the thrill, especially with dirt rally
i found circuit racing soooooo booooring, also in real life.       F1 and GT SUCKS!
ok, now kill me :D
There's really only a few tracks I like circuit racing around, most of them are pretty boring and flat. I prefer to do point to point if possible.
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austinb said:
Ok i see that im wasting my time with the NZ thing, think whatever you like, PS corsica is also nothing like monaco it is much wider and faster, but again i will leave it at that.
It's only a waste of time when you try to insist your opinion on something is 'right'. :)
Most of use are just describing what the situation is, as opposed to what we think it should be.
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urgaffel said:
Reference trips isn't just about photographing everything (although that is a big part of it), it's also about being there and feeling it. When it comes to the photography, it's easier for an artist who has to actually make the content to know what kind of photos you need to do it. It involves taking photos of everything you see on the road, from as many angles as possible, plus doing it with consistent settings so you don't have to manually edit 1000s of photos when you get back, adding in a ruler (or a person, or something else) for scale in some so you know the size of what you're making. There can also be little details that catch an artists eye that a normal person wouldn't think about :)
Thanks for the response. And I see what you're saying, you have your workflow and know what you need and in the long run it'll be a lot more streamlined and less hassle.
Seeing as we already have soft roadside banks in Sweden, I assume you're close to ejaculating? xD
I wouldn't exactly call the banks in Sweden soft. Yes, compared to Monte I guess they are soft. But if you go any deeper than that thin layer, you have the concrete banks we've unfortunately come to know from Wales (and Greece). For Sweden, they basically hung a down comforter over a brick wall. In contrast, hop in RX and go bump into the walls and barriers, see how the car behaves a lot more realistically? That's how it should be in other locations, including Sweden behind the fluffy layer.
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