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JZStudios said:
urgaffel said:
JZStudios said:
///
I don't see why the sim racing world hasn't progressed graphically since 2003. All the "modern" racing sims look about the same as Live For Speed, which was made by like 3 people, in 2003. So why hasn't there been any change on the graphical front? Why can't the next sim look like Battlefront? I mean, if they're actually laser scanning everything, that's even better than photogrammetry, all they need is a decent material and lighting system, along with a more beefed up well optimized engine to handle larger amounts of geometry. AC at the very least is horribly optimized, and I get all sorts of micro stutters and it never feels smooth, even at 100+fps, whereas PCars feels like butter by comparison with 45FPS. Sim racing needs a kick in the ass.
Speaking as a game dev I can answer that to some extent.

This has nothing to do with Codies, it's just a general observation about development;

The problem is that making things pretty takes time and costs money and most of the sim teams seem to be quite small compared to "normal" AAA game dev teams. If you have a limited budget, a small team and you're aiming for a top quality sim racing then the physics and handling are always going to be higher priority than the graphical whizbangs of the day.

It is actually quite hard to make something look good and also run well. Even if you do laser scans you still have a lot of work to do to clean up the data and get something usable out of it. And if you do spend a lot of money to make it pretty, you need to make sure you can recoup the investment by selling a lot of copies. The consequence: the game maker is in the tricky position of having a niche product that cost a lot to make and have to sell a lot in order to keep the studio from going under and one way to reach a broader market is to be less niche but then you end up moving away from the sim idea you had in the first place. Congratulations, you're now trapped between a rock and a hard place :)

Easier to just keep the graphics functional and focus on the handling and driving experience and not spend all your money on the art side of things!
I get that, but there's been smaller teams who've done more impressive things. iRacing at the very least is continuously bringing in a good chunk of pocket change. And they haven't changed graphically in a while. I think recently they claimed to go PBR or something, but I'm not sure I believe that. It doesn't look any different. It's just kind of goofy because eventually the engine limitations are widely known but they don't bother to fix them. Not that you CM guys are lazy, but the Ego engine is definitely aging and the limitations cut a lot of wanted features, though I'm also assuming you guys have people working on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just don't understand why some devs continually release essentially the same game time and time again with the same engine and faults.
I am pretty happy with the graphics, except the DOF stuff, I wish there was a way to turn it off, it looks TOO blurry and no real boke.  

However, I wish they would overhaul the replay system, there are a lot of beautiful details in DR that you cannot capture with the canned replay, and not being able to save them via the sim.. ugh.

Anyhow, just throwing that out there.
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gfRally said:
JZStudios said:
urgaffel said:
JZStudios said:
///
I don't see why the sim racing world hasn't progressed graphically since 2003. All the "modern" racing sims look about the same as Live For Speed, which was made by like 3 people, in 2003. So why hasn't there been any change on the graphical front? Why can't the next sim look like Battlefront? I mean, if they're actually laser scanning everything, that's even better than photogrammetry, all they need is a decent material and lighting system, along with a more beefed up well optimized engine to handle larger amounts of geometry. AC at the very least is horribly optimized, and I get all sorts of micro stutters and it never feels smooth, even at 100+fps, whereas PCars feels like butter by comparison with 45FPS. Sim racing needs a kick in the ass.
Speaking as a game dev I can answer that to some extent.

This has nothing to do with Codies, it's just a general observation about development;

The problem is that making things pretty takes time and costs money and most of the sim teams seem to be quite small compared to "normal" AAA game dev teams. If you have a limited budget, a small team and you're aiming for a top quality sim racing then the physics and handling are always going to be higher priority than the graphical whizbangs of the day.

It is actually quite hard to make something look good and also run well. Even if you do laser scans you still have a lot of work to do to clean up the data and get something usable out of it. And if you do spend a lot of money to make it pretty, you need to make sure you can recoup the investment by selling a lot of copies. The consequence: the game maker is in the tricky position of having a niche product that cost a lot to make and have to sell a lot in order to keep the studio from going under and one way to reach a broader market is to be less niche but then you end up moving away from the sim idea you had in the first place. Congratulations, you're now trapped between a rock and a hard place :)

Easier to just keep the graphics functional and focus on the handling and driving experience and not spend all your money on the art side of things!
I get that, but there's been smaller teams who've done more impressive things. iRacing at the very least is continuously bringing in a good chunk of pocket change. And they haven't changed graphically in a while. I think recently they claimed to go PBR or something, but I'm not sure I believe that. It doesn't look any different. It's just kind of goofy because eventually the engine limitations are widely known but they don't bother to fix them. Not that you CM guys are lazy, but the Ego engine is definitely aging and the limitations cut a lot of wanted features, though I'm also assuming you guys have people working on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just don't understand why some devs continually release essentially the same game time and time again with the same engine and faults.
I am pretty happy with the graphics, except the DOF stuff, I wish there was a way to turn it off, it looks TOO blurry and no real boke.  

However, I wish they would overhaul the replay system, there are a lot of beautiful details in DR that you cannot capture with the canned replay, and not being able to save them via the sim.. ugh.

Anyhow, just throwing that out there.
Yeah, this game definitely needs more graphics options for what's already there. And again, the engine is getting worked on. Probably. DR is the best looking "sim" to come out recently. iRacing, rFactor, AC, AMS, Anything by Reiza really, and I can't really think of any more all look pretty archaic.
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gfRally said:
JZStudios said:
urgaffel said:
JZStudios said:
///
I don't see why the sim racing world hasn't progressed graphically since 2003. All the "modern" racing sims look about the same as Live For Speed, which was made by like 3 people, in 2003. So why hasn't there been any change on the graphical front? Why can't the next sim look like Battlefront? I mean, if they're actually laser scanning everything, that's even better than photogrammetry, all they need is a decent material and lighting system, along with a more beefed up well optimized engine to handle larger amounts of geometry. AC at the very least is horribly optimized, and I get all sorts of micro stutters and it never feels smooth, even at 100+fps, whereas PCars feels like butter by comparison with 45FPS. Sim racing needs a kick in the ass.
Speaking as a game dev I can answer that to some extent.

This has nothing to do with Codies, it's just a general observation about development;

The problem is that making things pretty takes time and costs money and most of the sim teams seem to be quite small compared to "normal" AAA game dev teams. If you have a limited budget, a small team and you're aiming for a top quality sim racing then the physics and handling are always going to be higher priority than the graphical whizbangs of the day.

It is actually quite hard to make something look good and also run well. Even if you do laser scans you still have a lot of work to do to clean up the data and get something usable out of it. And if you do spend a lot of money to make it pretty, you need to make sure you can recoup the investment by selling a lot of copies. The consequence: the game maker is in the tricky position of having a niche product that cost a lot to make and have to sell a lot in order to keep the studio from going under and one way to reach a broader market is to be less niche but then you end up moving away from the sim idea you had in the first place. Congratulations, you're now trapped between a rock and a hard place :)

Easier to just keep the graphics functional and focus on the handling and driving experience and not spend all your money on the art side of things!
I get that, but there's been smaller teams who've done more impressive things. iRacing at the very least is continuously bringing in a good chunk of pocket change. And they haven't changed graphically in a while. I think recently they claimed to go PBR or something, but I'm not sure I believe that. It doesn't look any different. It's just kind of goofy because eventually the engine limitations are widely known but they don't bother to fix them. Not that you CM guys are lazy, but the Ego engine is definitely aging and the limitations cut a lot of wanted features, though I'm also assuming you guys have people working on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just don't understand why some devs continually release essentially the same game time and time again with the same engine and faults.
I am pretty happy with the graphics, except the DOF stuff, I wish there was a way to turn it off, it looks TOO blurry and no real boke.  

However, I wish they would overhaul the replay system, there are a lot of beautiful details in DR that you cannot capture with the canned replay, and not being able to save them via the sim.. ugh.

Anyhow, just throwing that out there.
There's a cool replay cam mod on Racedepartment. Sadly it does not include all the stages but some are really awesome. The first part of  Geufron Forest is epic. Howevee, you can't connect to racenet with it, but in my mind it should not be any different than the onboard cam mod that is out there. I asked @Hatward if they could allow it and he claims he'll look into it :)
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JZStudios said:
gfRally said:
JZStudios said:
urgaffel said:
JZStudios said:
///
I don't see why the sim racing world hasn't progressed graphically since 2003. All the "modern" racing sims look about the same as Live For Speed, which was made by like 3 people, in 2003. So why hasn't there been any change on the graphical front? Why can't the next sim look like Battlefront? I mean, if they're actually laser scanning everything, that's even better than photogrammetry, all they need is a decent material and lighting system, along with a more beefed up well optimized engine to handle larger amounts of geometry. AC at the very least is horribly optimized, and I get all sorts of micro stutters and it never feels smooth, even at 100+fps, whereas PCars feels like butter by comparison with 45FPS. Sim racing needs a kick in the ass.
Speaking as a game dev I can answer that to some extent.

This has nothing to do with Codies, it's just a general observation about development;

The problem is that making things pretty takes time and costs money and most of the sim teams seem to be quite small compared to "normal" AAA game dev teams. If you have a limited budget, a small team and you're aiming for a top quality sim racing then the physics and handling are always going to be higher priority than the graphical whizbangs of the day.

It is actually quite hard to make something look good and also run well. Even if you do laser scans you still have a lot of work to do to clean up the data and get something usable out of it. And if you do spend a lot of money to make it pretty, you need to make sure you can recoup the investment by selling a lot of copies. The consequence: the game maker is in the tricky position of having a niche product that cost a lot to make and have to sell a lot in order to keep the studio from going under and one way to reach a broader market is to be less niche but then you end up moving away from the sim idea you had in the first place. Congratulations, you're now trapped between a rock and a hard place :)

Easier to just keep the graphics functional and focus on the handling and driving experience and not spend all your money on the art side of things!
I get that, but there's been smaller teams who've done more impressive things. iRacing at the very least is continuously bringing in a good chunk of pocket change. And they haven't changed graphically in a while. I think recently they claimed to go PBR or something, but I'm not sure I believe that. It doesn't look any different. It's just kind of goofy because eventually the engine limitations are widely known but they don't bother to fix them. Not that you CM guys are lazy, but the Ego engine is definitely aging and the limitations cut a lot of wanted features, though I'm also assuming you guys have people working on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just don't understand why some devs continually release essentially the same game time and time again with the same engine and faults.
I am pretty happy with the graphics, except the DOF stuff, I wish there was a way to turn it off, it looks TOO blurry and no real boke.  

However, I wish they would overhaul the replay system, there are a lot of beautiful details in DR that you cannot capture with the canned replay, and not being able to save them via the sim.. ugh.

Anyhow, just throwing that out there.
Yeah, this game definitely needs more graphics options for what's already there. And again, the engine is getting worked on. Probably. DR is the best looking "sim" to come out recently. iRacing, rFactor, AC, AMS, Anything by Reiza really, and I can't really think of any more all look pretty archaic.
It's a bit of a mixed bag. Sometimes it looks a bit "cartoony" but at times it looks stunning. I really like the lightning in sunny Greece stages for example.
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some things wanted for years asked some of the codie devs for years for them to be implemented.

better replay cams. free cam especially. whenever you see the epic trailers ingames mostly done with free cam no clip.used correctly the footage that can be obtained is the best possible while playing. the better we can show the media more will like it. its pretty simple.

motion blur just remove it.every game the first thing i do is turn it off if possible. most i know do.
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no why do you want vaseline smeared in your vision ? what do you want when driving ? you want the clearest vision with no obstructions. to clearly see what you are doing.no post processing, no anything that blurs or smudges what you looking at . that is a disadvantage. (god please dont start breaking down how motion blur works...i can see that guy already ready to respond ;) )

 many games whether to hide something or try and simulate something add it. yet most people turn it off. if there isnt a option to turn off its just is annoying.

for instance in most competitive games many turn off all the fancy settings and play with low settings.it often gives you a clearer picture image of what you want to do.
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Heh, I personally like to toggle between low or off. Low when it's well implemented which helps with judging the speed (that has massive benefits naturally in racing environment), off when it's just how dgeesi0 put it "vaseline smeared".

Unfortunately the motion blur in DR is a bit too strong for my taste. If that would be "High" setting, I would most likely opt for low, where it only blurs the very edges of the screen and only at higher speeds.
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I was mostly talking about replays where Depth of Feild is way way over exaggerated for my tastes.  it looks like vaseline there for sure.  

For cockpit views its ok for me, but true triple screen support would elimate some of this, i think.

Check these last few posts off for wishlist items for D4 or DR2,  they all just need to be updated now (replay) after 10 years of the same, i think CM has got thier money out of it :) by now.
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bogani said:
JZStudios said:
gfRally said:
JZStudios said:
urgaffel said:
JZStudios said:
///
I don't see why the sim racing world hasn't progressed graphically since 2003. All the "modern" racing sims look about the same as Live For Speed, which was made by like 3 people, in 2003. So why hasn't there been any change on the graphical front? Why can't the next sim look like Battlefront? I mean, if they're actually laser scanning everything, that's even better than photogrammetry, all they need is a decent material and lighting system, along with a more beefed up well optimized engine to handle larger amounts of geometry. AC at the very least is horribly optimized, and I get all sorts of micro stutters and it never feels smooth, even at 100+fps, whereas PCars feels like butter by comparison with 45FPS. Sim racing needs a kick in the ass.
Speaking as a game dev I can answer that to some extent.

This has nothing to do with Codies, it's just a general observation about development;

The problem is that making things pretty takes time and costs money and most of the sim teams seem to be quite small compared to "normal" AAA game dev teams. If you have a limited budget, a small team and you're aiming for a top quality sim racing then the physics and handling are always going to be higher priority than the graphical whizbangs of the day.

It is actually quite hard to make something look good and also run well. Even if you do laser scans you still have a lot of work to do to clean up the data and get something usable out of it. And if you do spend a lot of money to make it pretty, you need to make sure you can recoup the investment by selling a lot of copies. The consequence: the game maker is in the tricky position of having a niche product that cost a lot to make and have to sell a lot in order to keep the studio from going under and one way to reach a broader market is to be less niche but then you end up moving away from the sim idea you had in the first place. Congratulations, you're now trapped between a rock and a hard place :)

Easier to just keep the graphics functional and focus on the handling and driving experience and not spend all your money on the art side of things!
I get that, but there's been smaller teams who've done more impressive things. iRacing at the very least is continuously bringing in a good chunk of pocket change. And they haven't changed graphically in a while. I think recently they claimed to go PBR or something, but I'm not sure I believe that. It doesn't look any different. It's just kind of goofy because eventually the engine limitations are widely known but they don't bother to fix them. Not that you CM guys are lazy, but the Ego engine is definitely aging and the limitations cut a lot of wanted features, though I'm also assuming you guys have people working on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I just don't understand why some devs continually release essentially the same game time and time again with the same engine and faults.
I am pretty happy with the graphics, except the DOF stuff, I wish there was a way to turn it off, it looks TOO blurry and no real boke.  

However, I wish they would overhaul the replay system, there are a lot of beautiful details in DR that you cannot capture with the canned replay, and not being able to save them via the sim.. ugh.

Anyhow, just throwing that out there.
Yeah, this game definitely needs more graphics options for what's already there. And again, the engine is getting worked on. Probably. DR is the best looking "sim" to come out recently. iRacing, rFactor, AC, AMS, Anything by Reiza really, and I can't really think of any more all look pretty archaic.
It's a bit of a mixed bag. Sometimes it looks a bit "cartoony" but at times it looks stunning. I really like the lightning in sunny Greece stages for example.
Well I mean things like motion blur, which is in the game, but not immediately accessible. It's under shaders or something with like 3 or 4 different effects. It's weird.
urgaffel said:
@dgeesi0 Regarding motion blur, is that always off or is it ok in replays? And just out of curiosity, why no motion blur when driving?
I personally don't like it either. Maybe if there was a way to change the amount (Or I guess shutter speed) to be more or less where you want it, but it also eats up a lot of FPS, and I'd rather have higher FPS for smoother play, especially with the "fancy" 144hz monitor I bought to do just that.
Motion blur is oft way too overdone, I think R3E does a good job with it, and PCars has the best I've seen, with some options to change the quality and amount, which actually gives it a smoother, more realistic look.
Basically more graphics options or toggles for every effect in game. I've argued with Ryu about how terrible AO is, and it's irritating when a game doesn't allow you to turn it off.
dgeesi0 said:
God please don't start breaking down how motion blur works...i can see that guy already ready to respond ;)
So the way motion blur works.... Vectors and past images blurred together on top. :p
I don't necessarily do it for performance reasons, but I also turn off pretty much every PP effect. I just find them unrealistic. I've never seen light rays from mountain ranges that strongly, and certainly not from every single object around me. It's an effect that's nice, but way overdone.Same thing with bloom.
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urgaffel said:
@dgeesi0 Regarding motion blur, is that always off or is it ok in replays? And just out of curiosity, why no motion blur when driving?
I like the blur that occurs when you are moving forward, It helps me judge speed a little bit better, but I HATE the blur when the camera moves sideways. I use a low FOV so that tends to get exaggerated, like when I'm going through a hairpin and everything blurs like crazy when I'm trying to see the road. I just leave it off all the time because even though I like the forward blur, the side-to-side blur totally gets in the way.

Also, quick question, why is it tied to the Shader Quality setting? Does that setting change anything other than post-processing? I can't see any other differences when I change it.
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The first thing i do when i see motion blur in the options for *any* game, is disable it.  Other than the performance hit, it does not look, or feel good whilst playing, only when watching someone else play/recording.

DOF is simplistically implemented in DR, so certainly could be better ;)

Some motion blur can certainly help for some speed, but at the very least, it needs to be it's own option.  I find it gives me a weird kind of pseudo headache when it's on and my driving isn't as good.
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versedi said:
It would be definetely cool to separate it in the next game. I'm disabling it too because it's exaggerated, too bad the shaders can't be left on high while lowering or turning off the motion blur. 
Given that the shaders option seems like a bunch of post-processing effects rather than one, I would prefer if I could adjust every single one of them separately rather than having most of them bunched together with only motion blur being separated out.
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versedi said:
It would be definetely cool to separate it in the next game. I'm disabling it too because it's exaggerated, too bad the shaders can't be left on high while lowering or turning off the motion blur. 
Given that the shaders option seems like a bunch of post-processing effects rather than one, I would prefer if I could adjust every single one of them separately rather than having most of them bunched together with only motion blur being separated out.
Well, that escalated quickly :) Obviously, more separation the better.
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versedi said:
versedi said:
It would be definetely cool to separate it in the next game. I'm disabling it too because it's exaggerated, too bad the shaders can't be left on high while lowering or turning off the motion blur. 
Given that the shaders option seems like a bunch of post-processing effects rather than one, I would prefer if I could adjust every single one of them separately rather than having most of them bunched together with only motion blur being separated out.
Well, that escalated quickly :) Obviously, more separation the better.
You give an inch, they take an arm... ;) But yeah, more options are always better. No promises though :P
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urgaffel said:
versedi said:
versedi said:
It would be definetely cool to separate it in the next game. I'm disabling it too because it's exaggerated, too bad the shaders can't be left on high while lowering or turning off the motion blur. 
Given that the shaders option seems like a bunch of post-processing effects rather than one, I would prefer if I could adjust every single one of them separately rather than having most of them bunched together with only motion blur being separated out.
Well, that escalated quickly :) Obviously, more separation the better.
You give an inch, they take an arm... ;) But yeah, more options are always better. No promises though :P
I am sure there are some areas that the artist doesn't want completely optional, I imagine it starts to take away from the intended look.
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