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Slow learning curves, they do not have to mean that there are good physiques behind ... RBR NEVER simulate anything good. It was just an unfinished game, and someone said at the time that it was a simulator and ran like the urban legend said ... Sorry.
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Keko55 said:
Slow learning curves, they do not have to mean that there are good physiques behind ... RBR NEVER simulate anything good. It was just an unfinished game, and someone said at the time that it was a simulator and ran like the urban legend said ... Sorry.
No no we are talking about handling physics, not the 3 D models of rally marshals. 
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dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
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RBR at time of release on PlayStation 2 . To be as bold with its unforgiving handling as it was deserves special credit. Of course it wasn't perfect. But it was a game changer for me. And a game that wasn't overtaken until DR came out. And yea DR is better in every way. But RBR deserves a Hollywood handshake for its efforts.
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I always wonder why the games have to have an option for the casual player by making the handling easier. In dirt4 that led to the point it never felt like a sim.

In dirt rallycross they had the junior circuits, easy to learn and a good base to improve. You can have the same in rally, for instance a short stage of the german rally without the stones so you have much more room.

By doing so rhey can give us the most realistic driving they can make and still give the casual player somerhing.
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I always wonder why the games have to have an option for the casual player by making the handling easier. In dirt4 that led to the point it never felt like a sim.

In dirt rallycross they had the junior circuits, easy to learn and a good base to improve. You can have the dame in rally, for instance a short stage of the german without the stones so you have much more room.

By doing so rhey can give us the most realistic driving they can make and still give the casual player somerhing.
Because some people don't want to neccesarily spend hours practicing to get really good, some might just want to sit on the sofa for an hour or two to kill time before putting the kids to bed and the wife coming home to expect chores done.

As much as like to hope its the opposite, the casual gamer outweights the serious sim gamer in most cases. I'm a sim racer to the bone and will turn off all assists that are default as soon as I load the game but for some, they just want some relaxed fun and I understand that. It's just trying to find that compromise that pleases both the fans and shareholders because after all, CM is a business and a business has to make money.
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I completely agree there shouldn't be 2 handling models. It should be hardcore with the option of traction control and braking assists. D4's handling felt horrible. The car seemed to pivot wierdly around its centre and for me didn't feel part of the stage in the same way DR did. I know it's a conflicted area but I thought DR's handling was perfect. For me atleast. And I still play it today.
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D4's handling felt horrible. The car seemed to pivot wierdly around its centre and for me didn't feel part of the stage in the same way DR did. I know it's a conflicted area but I thought DR's handling was perfect.
They built on DR's V2 handling to create D4's handling. The exact same pivoting around a centre point is seen in DR as well (and Colin McRae Rally 1, 2, 3, 4, & 2005 for that matter). You need only corner once or twice in Germany to see this and feel it.
DR's handling was never perfect, but to me the V1 physics were superior to current V2 ones that turned every car into a hovercraft that weighs about the same as a laundry basket, and handles as such.
Sorry for being bitter. :p
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dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
So what did people do in case of Dirt Rally, mistook lack of difficulty for realism? Because after playing any sim dirt feels easy. Also I'm not sure about the code, but handling in Dirt Rally is more basic than RBR,  RBR is not perfect, maybe not precise, but it is the only game that has the qualities of a sim. I am talking about the careful manipulation of the weight balance of the car, changes of grip, many ways of throwing the car around.  
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Flykas said:
dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
So what did people do in case of Dirt Rally, mistook lack of difficulty for realism? Because after playing any sim dirt feels easy. Also I'm not sure about the code, but handling in Dirt Rally is more basic than RBR,  RBR is not perfect, maybe not precise, but it is the only game that has the qualities of a sim. I am talking about the careful manipulation of the weight balance of the car, changes of grip, many ways of throwing the car around.  
Yeah but that is exactly what I mean. RBR has one (good) handling model while most games want the best of two worlds (arcade and sim) and end at no good at all. So that is why I made the poiht gaming companies should make the easy part NOT by fidling with the driving physics.
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D4's handling felt horrible. The car seemed to pivot wierdly around its centre and for me didn't feel part of the stage in the same way DR did. I know it's a conflicted area but I thought DR's handling was perfect.
They built on DR's V2 handling to create D4's handling. The exact same pivoting around a centre point is seen in DR as well (and Colin McRae Rally 1, 2, 3, 4, & 2005 for that matter). You need only corner once or twice in Germany to see this and feel it.
DR's handling was never perfect, but to me the V1 physics were superior to current V2 ones that turned every car into a hovercraft that weighs about the same as a laundry basket, and handles as such.
Sorry for being bitter. :p
D4 felt different in every way. Didn't feel like they built on anything. And the weird pivoty disconnected handling I only felt in D4 and not in DR. 
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Flykas said:
dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
So what did people do in case of Dirt Rally, mistook lack of difficulty for realism? Because after playing any sim dirt feels easy. Also I'm not sure about the code, but handling in Dirt Rally is more basic than RBR,  RBR is not perfect, maybe not precise, but it is the only game that has the qualities of a sim. I am talking about the careful manipulation of the weight balance of the car, changes of grip, many ways of throwing the car around.  
Ok.  I like RBR.  It’s a classic.  But anyone who claims it to be simulation, as clearly never driven a car fast, let alone driven a rally car fast.

RBR was good for what it was but it was basic and did really basic things to pass off as a driving simulation.

DiRT didn’t need to be difficult.  Driving a rally car isn’t difficult.  It’s ultra-intuitive.  If it’s not, your in a bad car.
It’s the being consistently fast, consistently accurate and gaining the very last few tenths of a second over the length of a 15 mile stage that’s difficult about rallying.

RBR was difficult and people mistook that difficulty for realism, to the point that they think everything else to be ‘too easy’.  It was difficult because it was vague.  
DiRT Rally has levels of driver detail and driver feedback that blew RBR into the history books where it now belongs.  

The only thing that was easy about DiRT Rally, was the width of stages.  Sweden addressed that beautifully, and everyone cries that Sweden is ‘too hard’....


Lol

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I think RBR is definitely a sim, but it had flaws like any sim does. The best part about it IMO was the way the car behaved on landing jumps or when going off and hitting some bumps (ditches etc) - it's hard to describe but the car felt like an amalgamation of parts on a chassis, rather than in Dirt games where the whole car feels like a single solid block when you go off the road. But I always thought the way the cars behaved like 700hp rockets was strange. Even with the longest gearset you could be competitive using nothing but gears 4-5-6 :smile:

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KevM said:
Flykas said:
dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
So what did people do in case of Dirt Rally, mistook lack of difficulty for realism? Because after playing any sim dirt feels easy. Also I'm not sure about the code, but handling in Dirt Rally is more basic than RBR,  RBR is not perfect, maybe not precise, but it is the only game that has the qualities of a sim. I am talking about the careful manipulation of the weight balance of the car, changes of grip, many ways of throwing the car around.  
Ok.  I like RBR.  It’s a classic.  But anyone who claims it to be simulation, as clearly never driven a car fast, let alone driven a rally car fast.

RBR was good for what it was but it was basic and did really basic things to pass off as a driving simulation.

DiRT didn’t need to be difficult.  Driving a rally car isn’t difficult.  It’s ultra-intuitive.  If it’s not, your in a bad car.
It’s the being consistently fast, consistently accurate and gaining the very last few tenths of a second over the length of a 15 mile stage that’s difficult about rallying.

RBR was difficult and people mistook that difficulty for realism, to the point that they think everything else to be ‘too easy’.  It was difficult because it was vague.  
DiRT Rally has levels of driver detail and driver feedback that blew RBR into the history books where it now belongs.  

The only thing that was easy about DiRT Rally, was the width of stages.  Sweden addressed that beautifully, and everyone cries that Sweden is ‘too hard’....


Lol

Idk, have you tried playing Assetto corsa or Iracing or even project cars and than immediately getting back to dirt rally? 
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IRacing is most like RBR.  It’s just as old, weird & over rated.

Project cars is a good game, not that difficult and not that hardcore a sim

Assetto Corsa as fairly difficult and fairly accurate, but drifting on dry tarmac as harder in real life that sliding a rally car on gravel.  It is intuitive though
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KevM said:
Why are we arguing about handling when Dirt Rally 2.0 is being announced tomorrow!?
Because this is the internet, it's what we doooooooo!
Moral of the Story.  You’ll never please 100% of the people 100% of the time!!  :p
For realsies. If there's one thing I've learned sim racing over the past 25 years or so, it's that for every 10 sim racers, there will be 10 opinions of which physics model is realistic and which isn't.
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KevM said:
Flykas said:
dgeesi0 said:
RBR was okay. people often thought it was amazing. Dirt rally was far more better and realistic.
People mistook difficulty for realism, yes it was a pretty good sim especially for when it was released but the handling was pretty basic by today's standards and the car had the same amount of grip at low or high speeds and there was no detail. DR got a lot of stuff right and needed some things working on which I'm sure has been done and this could well be the best rally game to date.

Unless its DiRT Showdown 2 in which case I shall quit the forum and never come back.
So what did people do in case of Dirt Rally, mistook lack of difficulty for realism? Because after playing any sim dirt feels easy. Also I'm not sure about the code, but handling in Dirt Rally is more basic than RBR,  RBR is not perfect, maybe not precise, but it is the only game that has the qualities of a sim. I am talking about the careful manipulation of the weight balance of the car, changes of grip, many ways of throwing the car around.  
Ok.  I like RBR.  It’s a classic.  But anyone who claims it to be simulation, as clearly never driven a car fast, let alone driven a rally car fast.

RBR was good for what it was but it was basic and did really basic things to pass off as a driving simulation.

DiRT didn’t need to be difficult.  Driving a rally car isn’t difficult.  It’s ultra-intuitive.  If it’s not, your in a bad car.
It’s the being consistently fast, consistently accurate and gaining the very last few tenths of a second over the length of a 15 mile stage that’s difficult about rallying.

RBR was difficult and people mistook that difficulty for realism, to the point that they think everything else to be ‘too easy’.  It was difficult because it was vague.  
DiRT Rally has levels of driver detail and driver feedback that blew RBR into the history books where it now belongs.  

The only thing that was easy about DiRT Rally, was the width of stages.  Sweden addressed that beautifully, and everyone cries that Sweden is ‘too hard’....


Lol
That's why at the RBR driving school, you could watch a thousand videos, but they were ALL the same fruit of canned driving ... If I had to settle this question in just one sentence I would say: "So that a car game can be played the luxury of being called Simulator must at least allow to reproduce any possible driving style ".... and Dirt Rally allows it ... RBR NOOOOO !!
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Btw I know this isn't really gossip related, but my Fanatec handbrake arrived, attached to my CS shifter with no hassle, works perfectly - and I didn't even have to modify my sim rig at all. I was up and running with it mounted in like 10 mins. Suffice to say I am extremely excited to see what's announced tomorrow at this point. :blush:

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Well. When it comes to difficulty being mistook for realism I have a nice insight after playing some PCars 2 recently.

I've had a basic FF wheel for about two months now (Logitech G920 with shifter + sequential mod) and only driven DiRT rally with said wheel. I'm super bad at track racing now. Throttle management, braking all that stuff. What's my point? PCars 2 has Rallycross and lo and behold, I'm pretty competitive at it. Even it's handling model isn't that far off DiRT Rally. I think that only confirms that rally/rx cars aren't hard to drive, it's the consistency that matters. Of course I've never driven a Rally car before (or anything on gravel for that matter) so that's all just a big guess.

Keeping with the topic, I wish we would get more in-depth cars stats like wheelbase, year of production, short summary etc.
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All the handling stuff aside. I think we can agree that it's dirt rally handling we want over d4's? *Hides behind sofa*

Then now all that's left is the one sleep we get until we find out just what Codies has in the pot over on that big old stove of theirs.
The weight and tarmac physics rather like D4 please. Tarmac feels so much better in D4 and in DR Finland always felt like driving on the moon with those unrealistic far jumps everywhere (even for finland) and at every small ditch.
But the loose Grip feeling and oversteer rather like DR, yes.
Both physics weren't perfect. (But still better than all rally competitors)
And if this is again a long time supported title (unlike D4), with DLC and updates, I have trust in CM to deliver fine-tuned driving physics, be it over time.


The thing I'm most interested for tommorow, apart from if it is a DR2 (if at least by core hardcore  concept),  is how they decided on YourStage. Will we get an improved YourStage, hand-crafted stages, or a mix of both? How would a new YourStage work in detail? How many unique stage-km are there per location? Oh, and now, VR support from launch?
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ShodanCat said:
KevM said:
Why are we arguing about handling when Dirt Rally 2.0 is being announced tomorrow!?
Because this is the internet, it's what we doooooooo!
Moral of the Story.  You’ll never please 100% of the people 100% of the time!!  :p
For realsies. If there's one thing I've learned sim racing over the past 25 years or so, it's that for every 10 sim racers, there will be 10 opinions of which physics model is realistic and which isn't.
But if the sim racers are good they will all pick te same game as beingvthe best. And ok then moawn over what could be better ☺
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I preferred Dirt 4's physics to Dirt Rallys. Once i learnt how to actually tune the obvious problems out of the cars. (notably around the differential) The base setting of the diff and the explanations were not clearly explained in the setup menu. I suspect that misinformation and the conservative base setups led to allot of peoples setups being counter to what they were expecting and hitting on the physics.
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ShodanCat said:
KevM said:
Why are we arguing about handling when Dirt Rally 2.0 is being announced tomorrow!?
Because this is the internet, it's what we doooooooo!
Moral of the Story.  You’ll never please 100% of the people 100% of the time!!  :p
For realsies. If there's one thing I've learned sim racing over the past 25 years or so, it's that for every 10 sim racers, there will be 10 opinions of which physics model is realistic and which isn't.
But if the sim racers are good they will all pick te same game as beingvthe best. And ok then moawn over what could be better ☺
You would think so, but see the above reply - even for the games where there *seems* to be some consensus, there are those who think it's the most realistic. Btw I'm NOT implying there's something wrong with that, I'm just saying no matter how "right" you think something is, you can be absolutely certain somebody out there thinks it's completely wrong. And vice versa.
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Agreed @SkyRex - both had their pros and cons; I certainly don't want the weird jumping from DR1 to come back.

I never got the same feeling of challenge with D4 as with DR (both physics and the AI competition), but if they're able to recapture this then the only other question I have too is whether they have found a way to create >150km+ of unique rally stages. With only a year passing since D4's release, there will certainly be limits on what's been possible in that time.

Fingers crossed we find out some information tomorrow.
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I preferred Dirt 4's physics to Dirt Rallys. Once i learnt how to actually tune the obvious problems out of the cars. (notably around the differential) The base setting of the diff and the explanations were not clearly explained in the setup menu. I suspect that misinformation and the conservative base setups led to allot of peoples setups being counter to what they were expecting and hitting on the physics.

Preferí la física de Dirt 4 a Dirt Rallys. Una vez aprendí cómo sintonizar los problemas obvios de los autos. (especialmente alrededor del diferencial) La configuración básica de la diferencia y las explicaciones no se explicaron claramente en el menú de configuración. Sospecho que la desinformación y las configuraciones conservadoras de la base llevaron a que las configuraciones de las personas fueran contrarias a lo que estaban esperando y afectando a la física.

The R5 category, for me, is better than Dirt Rally ...
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I preferred Dirt 4's physics to Dirt Rallys. Once i learnt how to actually tune the obvious problems out of the cars. (notably around the differential) The base setting of the diff and the explanations were not clearly explained in the setup menu. I suspect that misinformation and the conservative base setups led to allot of peoples setups being counter to what they were expecting and hitting on the physics.
Setups could only solve issues to a certain point. They messed up the loose surface grip, there is not much to discuss really. The fact that the heavier R4 cars was the best of the lot just confirms that. They were heavy enough to at least break some lateral traction.

RWD was the worst of the bunch. Went from feeling awesome in DR to pretty much zero throttle oversteer in D4. If you managed to get sideways the grip regained so quickly you wondered what happened.

Tarmac felt slightly better, but there was still something odd about it. Central pivot feeling that was discussed earlier.

The cars felt the best at the Dirt Fish playground where it was mostly flat, broken tarmac and the cars was setup for gravel. There they actually made sense to drive. 

On the plus side D4 handled high speed corners and crests better than Dirt Rally. 

Nevermind, let's see what tomorrow brings. I have a feeling this could be a lot closer to the Dirt Rally feeling  ;)
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There were times in dirt 4 taking high speed corners flat out in the r5’s where they really bite down and hold the road that felt really good. But they lost the weight transfer feeling and sliding at medium and low speed that dirt rally had.

But let’s look to tomorrow at what we know. They’ve had over a year developing the new game, they’ve had Petter and Oliver Solberg onboard possibly helping with handling, and they’ve had sim racer/rally driver Jon Armstrong onboard as what I presume was a handling consultant. All that to me points to positive things
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Yeah, hopefully Jon Armstrong has spent his time dialling the handling in.  He should know his stuff, being both a rally driver and a sim champion.  Wonder if the Solbergs or anyone else has had a hand in it this time round.  I guess we’ll find out a bit more tomorrow??
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Regarding RBR I want to say that the issue of physics being simple has been improved a lot with the "NGP" physics mod. With NGP the cars have better inertia, tire slip angles, better aero modeling, better tire behavior, better road surface parameters etc. and the list goes on. It completely transformed the game for me and after getting bored with the limited content of DiRT Rally I have to say that RBR is still my go-to rally sim and I have never left a game session feeling disappointed after playing RBR.

If you want to see the NGP physics in action here's my video of a Toyota Yaris WRC 2017 in VR:

https://youtu.be/9Io02A10-Qg
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versedi said:
This is getting real hype and teasing.

I don't know why, but I've felt New Zealand vibe from that picture. Sandish gravel, mountains. Hmm
I'd love this to be NZ so much - the ridge-line maybe, but that doesn't look like NZ gravel.

NZ is still obviously in DR 2.0 - they're clearly saving the best news for later...
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JorritVD said:
Hmm, Petter what are you doing at NASA?
"DiRT Space" announced


That steering angle tho...
I'm almost sad I miss all the excitement on the forum since it's all over when I wake up. But oh well. 2.0 gonna 2.0
In regards to physics, I agree with KevM. People have this weird idea that cars, especially modern ones, are super hard to drive. They're not. Although most sim racers think that traction control and ABS is the devils work while most if not all race drivers say "Why the hell would I turn that off?" These cars are designed for this, they haven't been ludicrously hard to drive since the 80's at latest. The 90's brought new technologies and a buttload of safety features and rules.
There's also my personal gripe of steering wheel weight, and tbh, I don't know about race cars, but modern street cars all have power steering that's never addressed in sims.
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