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DiRTy Gossip


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Message added by PJTierney,

Did you know that the long-time members of this thread have had a DiRTy Gossip Discord server for a while?

You do now 😉 

 

 

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bogani said:
RookieOne said:

bogani said:
tbtstt said:
RookieOne said:
I think that early 98 car was a S3 car. The change to the S4 designation was probably following the change to the gearbox (using a sequential with a single paddle instead of a H-Shifter gearbox)
I didn't think the paddle shift came until '99? The S5 was the first car with paddle shift, wasn't it? 
And was it really a single paddle?!
You are right @tbtstt , my bad

@bogani yes it was, I don't think they used dual-paddle like formula 1 in WRC competition (they might have tested it, but in a full rally ? not sure) for the simple reason that the steering lock is higher than in formula 1 (I think that F1 have at most 240 ? not sure but it's low enough to make it work with the paddles on the steering wheel.)
While it's 540 for most modern rallycars, although it might be a bit higher for the S5).

It was easier to make a single fixed paddle and use it like a sequential shifter, only way closer to the wheel
My life's been a lie for all those years! :open_mouth: 
Get used to it :tongue: 
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RookieOne said:

bogani said:
tbtstt said:
RookieOne said:
I think that early 98 car was a S3 car. The change to the S4 designation was probably following the change to the gearbox (using a sequential with a single paddle instead of a H-Shifter gearbox)
I didn't think the paddle shift came until '99? The S5 was the first car with paddle shift, wasn't it? 
And was it really a single paddle?!
You are right @tbtstt , my bad

@bogani yes it was, I don't think they used dual-paddle like formula 1 in WRC competition (they might have tested it, but in a full rally ? not sure) for the simple reason that the steering lock is higher than in formula 1 (I think that F1 have at most 240 ? not sure but it's low enough to make it work with the paddles on the steering wheel.)
While it's 540 for most modern rallycars, although it might be a bit higher for the S5).

It was easier to make a single fixed paddle and use it like a sequential shifter, only way closer to the wheel
Formula 1 cars are using 360-450 degrees depending on the track as far as I know. :)
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Anyone buying it?  Anyone?  No?  lol

Seriously though, I do hope its better than the previous Milestone games.  The WRC license deserves a better attempt at a game, even to get young'uns interested in the sport
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WRC5 is out now on Steam (even in UK, which was meant to be a bit later in the shops): http://store.steampowered.com/app/354160/
I heard there was a demo coming?  I'll give it a handle, but I think SLRE looks better now, but if handling is milestones away (pun intended) not even gonna try it.  Going into it with low expectations sometimes you get surprised.  
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Evilsmurf said:

And sometimes you get exactly what you expect. Still at least LaPremier will be happy with his new 'rally sim'.
Possibly not, some reviews are saying its 40/60 sim/arcade. Maybe to much "sim" for LaPremier :D
Don't mock him, he holds several records in Driver: San Francisco and GRID!


I apologise...


I'll get back in my box and bow down to the one with superior Driver: San Francisco skills.

That said, I still might pick it up because Rally :)

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I'll be downloading WRC5 in a bit, will see how it compares to every other PC rally game (as I have them all haha). There's MANY things worse than WRC5 on PC, I'm sure...
But there is also one which is (very probably) much better, which is why I won't be bothering.

Also, we finally have a new community manager!
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KevM said:
https://youtu.be/KNcyNGzCyxs

In all fairness, it looks & sounds horrific!!
I hate to see devs, any devs, ragged on with the kind of undue harshness that only gamers can provide—I know devs are human beings who work hard and want to do the best they can at their jobs with the resources they have—but... man... a Dustbuster sucking up Lego would make a more convincing rally car sound than that... :#
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I'm surprised that a new road book is up and WRC5 is the main topic of gossip. =P

Especially with a sentance like this:

  • On top of that there are also some super secret cars that we have started to look at, right now they are very much in the prototype phase but I’ll hopefully have something more to say about them later on in the year.
Something they have only just started to look at but are in the prototype phase and hopefully doable in 2 months? Could it be Toyota back on the cards?
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BrySkye said:
I'm surprised that a new road book is up and WRC5 is the main topic of gossip. =P

Especially with a sentance like this:

  • On top of that there are also some super secret cars that we have started to look at, right now they are very much in the prototype phase but I’ll hopefully have something more to say about them later on in the year.
Something they have only just started to look at but are in the prototype phase and hopefully doable in 2 months? Could it be Toyota back on the cards?
2015 WRCs?
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macebig said:
dwkGravey said:
I was wondering where you got your numbers from.
From justbiglee back on the 17th of July.
justbiglee said:
Car wishlits – We’re pretty confident that we have some of the most iconic rally cars rally cars already and we have over 15 more on the assembly line (all of which you’ve been asking for). For some cars though licensing is ultimately what kills the possibility of their inclusion. The Tuthill Porsche for a prime example, we’ve had a lot of requests for that but another publisher holds the exclusive rights to Porsche cars and it’s the similar for a few others. It’s also down to the car manufacturers – not all of them want to be in a rally game.
Plot twist:Lee is a double agent for Codemasters.Manages to forge sublicensing contracts from EA to Codies and Tuthill Porsche plus 911SC plus 959 make a triumphant appereance in Dirt Rally...  :p
OMG!!!He really did it.... :D
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BrySkye said:
I'm surprised that a new road book is up and WRC5 is the main topic of gossip. =P

Especially with a sentance like this:

  • On top of that there are also some super secret cars that we have started to look at, right now they are very much in the prototype phase but I’ll hopefully have something more to say about them later on in the year.
Something they have only just started to look at but are in the prototype phase and hopefully doable in 2 months? Could it be Toyota back on the cards?
2015 WRCs?
Or even maybe some new 2017 spec WRC cars. :D
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enamel said:
So what do you guys think will be included in the Steamworks integration? IIRC Paul eliminated the possibility of stages and cars a while back. Liveries maybe?
Hummm. I dont see this working because the licenses, maybe it will support modified textures  (for example Summer trees for Finland).
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BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Yeah this is my thought too, so I'm still at a loss as to what could be in the steam workshop.  Not that I'm complaining, that function is a great addition to any game, but I'm curious as to what it could be.
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BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Liveries without licensed sponsors can always be included. For example a pure Martini livery without sponsors can be easily included, or a simple matte black skin with some DiRT Rally stickers in a lighter black on it. Liveries don't start or end at licensed ones only.
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enamel said:
So what do you guys think will be included in the Steamworks integration? IIRC Paul eliminated the possibility of stages and cars a while back. Liveries maybe?
It's car setups (edit: and FFB settings). I think Paul mentioned that in the last Dirt show.

E2A: He also said it was supposed to come with v0.8, but they're still working it out.
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G37L057 said:
BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Liveries without licensed sponsors can always be included. For example a pure Martini livery without sponsors can be easily included, or a simple matte black skin with some DiRT Rally stickers in a lighter black on it. Liveries don't start or end at licensed ones only.
Not true.
We couldn't put the Martini stripes into the game without permission from Martini as they hold the rights. At this stage we are unable to agree terms but we are still trying. Separate to that we couldn't write Martini on the livery because it is an alcohol brand and that is a restriction placed on video games. 
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KickUp said:
G37L057 said:
BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Liveries without licensed sponsors can always be included. For example a pure Martini livery without sponsors can be easily included, or a simple matte black skin with some DiRT Rally stickers in a lighter black on it. Liveries don't start or end at licensed ones only.
Not true.
We couldn't put the Martini stripes into the game without permission from Martini as they hold the rights. At this stage we are unable to agree terms but we are still trying. Separate to that we couldn't write Martini on the livery because it is an alcohol brand and that is a restriction placed on video games. 
I don't want to live in this era anymore. Take me back to the 90s please... Fuck Martini and Toyota
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KickUp said:
G37L057 said:
BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Liveries without licensed sponsors can always be included. For example a pure Martini livery without sponsors can be easily included, or a simple matte black skin with some DiRT Rally stickers in a lighter black on it. Liveries don't start or end at licensed ones only.
Not true.
We couldn't put the Martini stripes into the game without permission from Martini as they hold the rights. At this stage we are unable to agree terms but we are still trying. Separate to that we couldn't write Martini on the livery because it is an alcohol brand and that is a restriction placed on video games. 
Never would've imagined they would actually trademark the stripes... But then how can they even prove it's "their stripes"? It's not like only they use that kind of style of stripes in liveries (Viper GTS-R Team Oreca comes to mind immediately).

Also I assume it's the restriction in UK? Never heard about alcohol brand not being allowed to be put into video games in Poland for example.
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G37L057 said:

Never would've imagined they would actually trademark the stripes... But then how can they even prove it's "their stripes"? It's not like only they use that kind of style of stripes in liveries (Viper GTS-R Team Oreca comes to mind immediately).

Also I assume it's the restriction in UK? Never heard about alcohol brand not being allowed to be put into video games in Poland for example.
It's not a trademark but it is a considerable part of their identity and it is enforceable in the court of law. 

As for for the alcohol law. It's not just the UK but we make the game for worldwide release so it needs to adhere to many laws. Either way without Martini's permission it's a moot point. 
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G37L057 said:
KickUp said:
G37L057 said:
BrySkye said:
I think liveries were ruled out as well for the same reason as cars.
Liveries without licensed sponsors can always be included. For example a pure Martini livery without sponsors can be easily included, or a simple matte black skin with some DiRT Rally stickers in a lighter black on it. Liveries don't start or end at licensed ones only.
Not true.
We couldn't put the Martini stripes into the game without permission from Martini as they hold the rights. At this stage we are unable to agree terms but we are still trying. Separate to that we couldn't write Martini on the livery because it is an alcohol brand and that is a restriction placed on video games. 
Never would've imagined they would actually trademark the stripes... But then how can they even prove it's "their stripes"? It's not like only they use that kind of style of stripes in liveries (Viper GTS-R Team Oreca comes to mind immediately).

Also I assume it's the restriction in UK? Never heard about alcohol brand not being allowed to be put into video games in Poland for example.
The stripes in the Martini colours of light and dark blue with red are part of their brand identity, so they are protected.
You could try defending it in court but not only would that be expensive, if it was an obvious recreation of a real livery, you'd be certain to lose.
All they'd have to do is show a photo of an actual Martini Racing Ford Focus WRC.
Same goes for typefaces and pretty much everything that's identifiable as part of the brand.
For example if someone tried to use Mylius, the British Airways font.

There's been crackdowns on alcohol advertising throughout the 00's.
In the US, alcohol advertising can only be placed in media where 70% of the audience is above the legal drinking age of 21. So video games is a difficult case.
There are also EU laws which all EU member states, including Poland, must abide by. Specific countries can have more strict laws, like France, but countries can't (or shouldn't) have more lenient ones than the EU dictates.
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Huh, maybe Martini have become stricter on it recently. Because I remember both Sega Rally Revo/3 and Grand Turismo having the stripes on their lancias without the logo
Don't be surprised if that's part of the reason why!

Going further back, the original Sega Rally actually had the full Martini logo and writing as well. 


That game came in a very different era. We're talking about 'gentlemen's agreements' as opposed to licensing.
Sponsors weren't actually licensed, they just used them.
Probably part of why its never been properly re-released (except for a Japan & Korea only PS2 bonus disc in 2006), despite 2015 being the 20th anniversary of one of the most influential racing games of all time.

Polyphony Digital are more likely to have gotten an actual license, but censored the logo. The logo is in fact present, but the word "Martini" is censored into black and white blocks, like the Malboro barcode Ferrari use in F1 until the end of the 00's.



Gran Turismo is a bit of a special case where several car makers and brands actually approach them about wanting to be in the game.
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KickUp said:
It's not a trademark but it is a considerable part of their identity and it is enforceable in the court of law. 

As for for the alcohol law. It's not just the UK but we make the game for worldwide release so it needs to adhere to many laws. Either way without Martini's permission it's a moot point. 
Shame some companies are really stubborn about those things. It's basically a free advertisement for them, even if you would to include the Martini livery without the Martini branding.
BrySkye said:
The stripes in the Martini colours of light and dark blue with red are part of their brand identity, so they are protected.
You could try defending it in court but not only would that be expensive, if it was an obvious recreation of a real livery, you'd be certain to lose.
All they'd have to do is show a photo of an actual Martini Racing Ford Focus WRC.
Same goes for typefaces and pretty much everything that's identifiable as part of the brand.
For example if someone tried to use Mylius, the British Airways font.

There's been crackdowns on alcohol advertising throughout the 00's.
In the US, alcohol advertising can only be placed in media where 70% of the audience is above the legal drinking age of 21. So video games is a difficult case.
There are also EU laws which all EU member states, including Poland, must abide by. Specific countries can have more strict laws, like France, but countries can't (or shouldn't) have more lenient ones than the EU dictates.
Obviously anyone who even thinks of going to court with something like that while making a recreation is definitely more than hugely optimistic ;) Unless it's the Chinese government... xD

The entire alcohol advertising is something I literally can't even begin to comprehend. You go to a store, first thing you see on the display... alcohol. That's the view in most EU countries, can't imagine it being that much different in US or anywhere else. If they would reverse the law and disallow the placement of alcohol advertising in media's where over 70% of the audience is below that age... then that makes more sense. Limiting the amount of those ads in media's or simply the hours when they can be broadcasted will also have a lot better effect than just "no ads". But they put rather silly restrictions on advertising in media's when kids below age of 10 have access to the internet and can easily see all the stuff they want to limit them. All they are doing is making the "forbidden fruit" effect stronger.

In any case shops can't sell alcohol to those under the age, while those that know how to go around it will be able to get it anyway. Pointless restriction is pointless no matter how you look at it. We sure are living in rather messed up times.
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Can't really speak to the ban on alcohol or tobacco in real racing, but I could definitely see not wanting it in the game since it carries an ESRB 'E - Everyone' rating and having Martini in the game would push the rating into at least 'T - Teen' due to alcohol references.

The Martini stripes are most likely considered something similar to a trademark called "trade dress" and include things like specific colors and even sounds. The "potato-potato" sound a Harley-Davidson makes is an example of registered trade dress. On top of that graphic designs themselves are protected by copyright even if they are not considered registered or unregistered trademarks.
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enamel said:
Can't really speak to the ban on alcohol or tobacco in real racing, but I could definitely see not wanting it in the game since it carries an ESRB 'E - Everyone' rating and having Martini in the game would push the rating into at least 'T - Teen' due to alcohol references.

The Martini stripes are most likely considered something similar to a trademark called "trade dress" and include things like specific colors and even sounds. The "potato-potato" sound a Harley-Davidson makes is an example of registered trade dress. On top of that graphic designs themselves are protected by copyright even if they are not considered registered or unregistered trademarks.
Well, I don't really think that rating nowadays means anything. It's not like you can't buy a game that has the age restriction. Another side to look at is that when it comes to rally games like DiRT Rally, they are aiming at a specific niche market. So someone who sees the Martini livery in a game most likely won't go "oh, I could use a drink" but more into the "they included that livery, nice". Naturally there are many other factors at play, but ultimately it's down to bureaucracy and that never meant anything good.

Of course, graphical designs are the Intellectual Property, so they are protected by the author's rights. Thing with Martini though is theirs design doesn't really have a... given form. Look at Focus for example, with each year the design changed rather drastically. It's still their IP naturally, but kind of silly making a simple stripe a scheme that only they can use. Though if someone were to change the colours and adjust it to their design, no longer an issue. But still kind of messed up situation with Martini in general IMO.
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