FIA WRX 2017

[RallyDriven 398]

PaloSamo said:

Meanwhile across the Big Pond:                           
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0UVijjQu8E

It's good, but it's not quite carl... WRX!

[RyuMakkuro 6]

I'll be honest, the Lydden was quite... uneventful. In the entire finals, there was only one "overtake" that happened with Loeb and Ekstrom. It felt like watching trains racing, everyone just in a line, nothing happening at all... felt like watching compressed season of Formula 1 xD

I for one am glad that Lydden is gone from the WRX calendar next year. I don't care much if it's the most legendary and iconic RX track out there, when it just doesn't work for racing on the highest level. This year was especially bad with it being essentially 100% tarmac (gravel in the last corner starts at the point where they are no longer really turning and they go through the chicane flat out).

[AnegloPlz 10]

RyuMakkuro said:

I'll be honest, the Lydden was quite... uneventful. In the entire finals, there was only one "overtake" that happened with Loeb and Ekstrom. It felt like watching trains racing, everyone just in a line, nothing happening at all... felt like watching compressed season of Formula 1 xD

I for one am glad that Lydden is gone from the WRX calendar next year. I don't care much if it's the most legendary and iconic RX track out there, when it just doesn't work for racing on the highest level. This year was especially bad with it being essentially 100% tarmac (gravel in the last corner starts at the point where they are no longer really turning and they go through the chicane flat out).

I feel like the only one overtake problem you're adressing is more a problem due to the increasing gap in performance between cars compared to the previous years. think about it, the PSRX cars just dominated most of the free practice and qualifiying heats till now and they haven't claimed the race win till the fourth round just because of bad luck in the previous finals, that is a real concern I have for the sake of entertainment, especially for semifinals and finals, no major surprises aside from the 2nd place claimed by Scheider in Barcelona and almost always the same drivers out in front, I really hope to see something different and more balanced in the next rounds, like what happened last year with Eriksson's win, Timerzyanov's great pace in some rounds like Hell and Barcelona and the semifinal win in Hockenheim by Doran and podium finish of Block.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

AnegloPlz said:
I feel like the only one overtake problem you're adressing is more a problem due to the increasing gap in performance between cars compared to the previous years.

No. Let me do a quick explanation of the issue with Lydden:
- first corner, tarmac on the inside, around 1,5 car width, so you can't fit two cars on it, if you go to the gravel on the outside, you lose a position, train of cars is made effectively
- second corner, train of cars out of the first corner so this is the first corner where you can actually think of catching up, on top of that it's a fast yet surprisingly tight corner, where if you don't take an optimal line, you lose insane amount of time (see Ekstrom on his failed defense on that corner). Dive bombing there is gonna end up with you retaining your position... at best.
- third corner, aka the hairpin. The only place where you can actually dive bomb, therefore only reasonable place to overtake and at the same time incredibly easy to defend as... you just cover the inside. And the one that has the inside will be the first out of that hairpin since you can't keep up on the outside.
- fourth corner has tarmac on the inside of the gravel section, if you use the full width of the track you can essentially turn on the tarmac and when you enter the gravel the car is straightening out anyway, so full throttle and just power out. If you would want to dive bomb there, the best would be loss of a time and keep your position, most likely case would be a crash. A bad one. Which is why no one even attempts overtaking there, since you have nasty tires on the inside that if you hit them, they spin the car and the guys behind you hit you and... race over for many.

And yes, I read your entire post. The reason why PSRX cars were so fast, was because Lydden is the most tarmac circuit of them all. There's almost no gravel on it at all, therefore while in the other races you could see that the Polo's were fast at the start but slower closer to the end of the race, now they didn't had that issue since there was nothing to clog up the radiators. When we'll go back to the more gravel intensive tracks... we'll go back to a normal situation.
Also, I don't see how top drivers being constantly at the top is an issue? They are the top drivers after all. If they didn't place at the top consistently no one would call them top drivers. It's like expecting the best cars to perform very bad so the worse cars can actually compete. And the top drivers are now in works based teams so... that's just natural they'll be dominating. I don't see any problem with it though, when the action is spectacular (well, most of the time at least). Unlike rally where the standings dictate the interest in competition, in RX the biggest bit of competition comes from the racing, not result. At least for me.

[AnegloPlz 10]

RyuMakkuro said:

AnegloPlz said:
I feel like the only one overtake problem you're adressing is more a problem due to the increasing gap in performance between cars compared to the previous years.

No. Let me do a quick explanation of the issue with Lydden:
- first corner, tarmac on the inside, around 1,5 car width, so you can't fit two cars on it, if you go to the gravel on the outside, you lose a position, train of cars is made effectively
- second corner, train of cars out of the first corner so this is the first corner where you can actually think of catching up, on top of that it's a fast yet surprisingly tight corner, where if you don't take an optimal line, you lose insane amount of time (see Ekstrom on his failed defense on that corner). Dive bombing there is gonna end up with you retaining your position... at best.
- third corner, aka the hairpin. The only place where you can actually dive bomb, therefore only reasonable place to overtake and at the same time incredibly easy to defend as... you just cover the inside. And the one that has the inside will be the first out of that hairpin since you can't keep up on the outside.
- fourth corner has tarmac on the inside of the gravel section, if you use the full width of the track you can essentially turn on the tarmac and when you enter the gravel the car is straightening out anyway, so full throttle and just power out. If you would want to dive bomb there, the best would be loss of a time and keep your position, most likely case would be a crash. A bad one. Which is why no one even attempts overtaking there, since you have nasty tires on the inside that if you hit them, they spin the car and the guys behind you hit you and... race over for many.

And yes, I read your entire post. The reason why PSRX cars were so fast, was because Lydden is the most tarmac circuit of them all. There's almost no gravel on it at all, therefore while in the other races you could see that the Polo's were fast at the start but slower closer to the end of the race, now they didn't had that issue since there was nothing to clog up the radiators. When we'll go back to the more gravel intensive tracks... we'll go back to a normal situation.
Also, I don't see how top drivers being constantly at the top is an issue? They are the top drivers after all. If they didn't place at the top consistently no one would call them top drivers. It's like expecting the best cars to perform very bad so the worse cars can actually compete. And the top drivers are now in works based teams so... that's just natural they'll be dominating. I don't see any problem with it though, when the action is spectacular (well, most of the time at least). Unlike rally where the standings dictate the interest in competition, in RX the biggest bit of competition comes from the racing, not result. At least for me.

Can't agree with you, yeah the "top" drivers are meant to be mostly dominating, but as I said before, this year the competition seems much more lacking of underdogs that manage to go for a podium finish in an event or even for a nice qualifying win. Have you seen the qualifying heats in Lydden Hill?  The 2 PSRX VW, Ekstrom, Bakkerud and the peugeot Hansen guys were always in the first 5 positions, and this has not necessarily to do with the track conformation, as we've seen almost the same script for the other rounds so far this year. Again, I really hope something will change a little bit, in order to not make WRX the new Formula 1, with the same guys in front with little to no hopes for others to make it to the podium.

[RallyDriven 398]

From being at the track watching on Saturday I'd disagree with a lot of this. The hairpin is the best place for overtaking, but you definitely don't lose a lot of time from going wide on the first or last corners, saw a lot of people doing that over the weekend and it not costing them much. That being said, winning at lydden does rely heavily on the joker lap, as it's very tricky, and needs to be well timed. I saw many great races in the rx2's, touring cars and wrx coming down to joker lap merges, which made for some great action

[tbtstt 2,387]

RallyDriven said:

From being at the track watching on Saturday I'd disagree with a lot of this. The hairpin is the best place for overtaking, but you definitely don't lose a lot of time from going wide on the first or last corners, saw a lot of people doing that over the weekend and it not costing them much. That being said, winning at lydden does rely heavily on the joker lap, as it's very tricky, and needs to be well timed. I saw many great races in the rx2's, touring cars and wrx coming down to joker lap merges, which made for some great action

Agreed. I think it's very easy to dismiss a lot of circuits until you have visited them: I have a mental image of several circuits which I've drawn up based on TV coverage and it's been completely wrong when I've actually got there. 

[RyuMakkuro 6]

AnegloPlz said:
Can't agree with you, yeah the "top" drivers are meant to be mostly dominating, but as I said before, this year the competition seems much more lacking of underdogs that manage to go for a podium finish in an event or even for a nice qualifying win.

In short you watch the RX for the numbers that come out at the end, rather than for the racing. Gotcha. I don't do that, therefore I don't care if it's a domination or not as long as the racing itself is epic.

tbtstt said:

Agreed. I think it's very easy to dismiss a lot of circuits until you have visited them: I have a mental image of several circuits which I've drawn up based on TV coverage and it's been completely wrong when I've actually got there. 

It's not about dismissing them from imagining how they look, but based on how the racing is done there. It's a massive train of cars, nothing else. There's no room for imagining things here. If the cars are driving in a line it's hard to take it as them constantly exchanging the positions -_- And the joker only makes it worse, as if you don't drive it fast enough you have no chance at regaining your position since you can't overtake anywhere on the track.

There hasn't been a single actual overtake done in the whole finals (I don't count the Ekstrom and Loeb as an overtake). Compare that with the other circuits where the amount of action was quite often insane and... it just becomes apparent that Lydden is simply not suited for racing at this level. And because you have been there that actually makes you guys biased, as you judge the spectacle not based on the racing itself but on the atmosphere happening there.

The facts are on the table, there's no point trying to defend something simply because you're British or that it is legendary. It's a good track for casual racing but definitely not for the WRX Supercars level.

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

So you were watching people struggling to get past then?  As opposed to them not being fast enough to make a move.

[dwkGravey 0]

I don't count overtakes that disprove my point as overtakes.

[RallyDriven 398]

All I was saying was what I saw on Saturday was some genuinely great, close and action packed racing, with everyone absolutely on the limits. I don't rate silverstone at all as a normal race track, but I hope they do something good with the rallycross. It is also a lot closer to me than lydden, so that's a bonus!

[RyuMakkuro 6]

dwkGravey said:

I don't count overtakes that disprove my point as overtakes.

The overtake you have on mind was essentially them being side by side due to Loeb leaving the Joker, then Ekstrom messed up the braking and that was the only reason why Loeb could overtake him at all. That was the only interesting moment of the finals (including both semi's).

F2CMaDMaXX said:

So you were watching people struggling to get past then?  As opposed to them not being fast enough to make a move.

I was watching a train of cars effectively. If I would want that, I'd watch Formula 1 or majority of other motorsports. The main thing that made RX different from everything else is that you don't get that "train of cars" effect. Lydden successfully managed to make RX as uneventful as the other motorsports.

I'm glad it's gone and I'm hoping that the next event will bring back the usual racing.

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

You dodged my point;

Sometimes performance on the day causes this.  There is quite a difference between a train because each person is slower that the person directly in front of them, Vs they physically can't pass because there are no places to do so.

I fully agree re F1 though, they still don't seem to understand that aero (and not physical) grip stops the cars from racing when close to each other.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

F2CMaDMaXX said:

Sometimes performance on the day causes this.  There is quite a difference between a train because each person is slower that the person directly in front of them, Vs they physically can't pass because there are no places to do so.

Ekstrom was fast enough to overtake Loeb when he had a gap to him before he took the joker and then when Loeb took it they were side by side. So he definitely was fast enough to attempt something, but there was nothing. Once they went past the hairpin... it was end of story. Solberg was also stuck behind Timerzyanov for a lap while being obviously way faster. Couldn't pass him at all.

[KingOfCoins 286]

This is how Silverstone RX is going to look apparently.

Kinda boring if you ask me. But I like the amount of dirt on track tho. 

[breyzipp 0]

KingOfCoins said:

This is how Silverstone RX is going to look apparently.

Kinda boring if you ask me. But I like the amount of dirt on track tho. 

It looks decent if you ask me, I like the amount of dirt as well. Turn 4 looks fun as well with a braking zone half on dirt & half on tarmac.  Also like the fact that it's not an early joker again. Still give me Lydden Hill back any day.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

KingOfCoins said:

This is how Silverstone RX is going to look apparently.

Kinda boring if you ask me. But I like the amount of dirt on track tho. 

I like the part where joker begins. Looks like fast corners, should provide an interesting situation there, especially with the exit. I like that there 2nd and 3rd corner bit, basically no straight between them and being on the inside for one leaves you on the outside for the other. Should prove to be a popular overtaking spot and generally provide some nice spectacle, especially with the straight after it.
I also like how you have one corner half tarmac and half gravel but in the good way. This should result in some interesting action.

It kind of reminds me a bit of a miniaturised Silverstone tbh xD In any case at the concept level it looks promising. The cars should be flying on the finish bit, looks like a really fast section. Pun half-intended xD

[breyzipp 0]

Team VVV visiting Lydden Hill last weekend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGWRUwAr-Bo

[DiRTKiNG808 15]

RyuMakkuro said:

KingOfCoins said:

This is how Silverstone RX is going to look apparently.

Kinda boring if you ask me. But I like the amount of dirt on track tho. 

I like the part where joker begins. Looks like fast corners, should provide an interesting situation there, especially with the exit. I like that there 2nd and 3rd corner bit, basically no straight between them and being on the inside for one leaves you on the outside for the other. Should prove to be a popular overtaking spot and generally provide some nice spectacle, especially with the straight after it.
I also like how you have one corner half tarmac and half gravel but in the good way. This should result in some interesting action.

It kind of reminds me a bit of a miniaturised Silverstone tbh xD In any case at the concept level it looks promising. The cars should be flying on the finish bit, looks like a really fast section. Pun half-intended xD

Looks great to me! I'm bummed we are losing Lydden Hill. But SUPER exited to see Silverstone in action! :) :D

[DiRTKiNG808 15]

Does anyone here play Fantasy RX? I'm North West Autosport.

[RallyDriven 398]

I'm not happy about the apparent pricing, apparently a ticket on the gates on Sunday is £70! Complete rip-off! 

As for the track, it may be alright. I've seen a video on Facebook of a car briefly going around. There was a reasonable jump on the track somewhere, probably in the straight on the top right. The surface changes are in some interesting positions, with some changes in braking sections and mid corner.

I'll hopefully be there next year, although the viewing doesn't look anywhere near as good as lydden!

[tbtstt 2,387]

I think it's too early to judge the Silverstone circuit. It's only just been built and, until we see some cars actually racing on it, we can't really jump to any conclusions...

...the ticket pricing on the other hand is pretty disappointing to see. There may be a lot more to be revealed but the advance weekend tickets (£95) are almost double those for Lydden. As @RallyDriven has already highlighted, £70 per day on the gate is another huge increase as well. That's approaching Festival of Speed money.

Perhaps the rest of the "festival" will justify that cost, but I would question how much all the extras will appeal to most rallycross fans. 

[DiRTKiNG808 15]

Well, at least the tickets aren't Monanco Grand Prix pricing.  :D

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Found an interesting article about the Silverstone RX circuit opening, it's in Polish though, so you'll have to use built in translator: http://rallycross.autoklub.pl/news/silverstone-rx-circuit-otwarty,76801

There's a quote of Solberg there on which I did quick translation to avoid some... stupid Google stuff.

"Track is good. I like it. The jumps will be really long! It only lacks a really long gravel corner. Those cars have 600BHP and we need to have a place to use that power. There's a lot of dirt here and I like it. On many tracks there's a bit too much tarmac."

That last bit heavily refers to the *cough*Lydden*cough* Barcelona for sure.

[dwkGravey 0]

RyuMakkuro said:

Found an interesting article about the Silverstone RX circuit opening, it's in Polish though, so you'll have to use built in translator: http://rallycross.autoklub.pl/news/silverstone-rx-circuit-otwarty,76801

There's a quote of Solberg there on which I did quick translation to avoid some... stupid Google stuff.

"Track is good. I like it. The jumps will be really long! It only lacks a really long gravel corner. Those cars have 600BHP and we need to have a place to use that power. There's a lot of dirt here and I like it. On many tracks there's a bit too much tarmac."

That last bit heavily refers to the *cough*Lydden*cough* Barcelona for sure.

Solberg's quote is in English in Autosport's article yesterday:

"It's good. I like it. The jump's going to be a really big one. The one thing they're missing is a long, long corner on the gravel. We have 600bhp with these cars and we need to see that power being used. There's also a lot of gravel here, but I like that - we've got plenty of circuits already with maybe too much asphalt."