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The camera view thread went down really well so I'm interested in getting another up and running.

We've read all of your thoughts, opinions and feelings on the AI within GRID Autosport but I thought it was worth creating a single thread where we can have one central discussion surrounding it.

Currently we are looking into the AI and are testing some tweaks that make the AI more aware, in particular this will hopefully reduce the amount of crashing into the back of you the AI does (accidents do happen on a race track though!).

So, AI, what are your thoughts?
  • What do you like about the AI
  • What don't you like about the AI
  • What would you improve with the AI

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Don't touch the AI, it's one of the things that is ok in this game! For me it's the best AI I encountered in a racing game! Especially if you compare the ones of Gran Turismo....

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I haven't played much career as yet (am waiting til the patch is out :)) so my only real experience of the AI is in Racenet Challenge so this is based on that:

I like the fact they seem to have their own personalities... for example Nathan McKane and Leo Turner won't let me pass them without at least trying to give me a bit of a tap, whereas Sofie Muller seems to let me by with no problem.  They can be quite challenging at times which is also good.

However, IMO they seem to react differently to cars driven by real people in multiplayer... For example, I can use an AI to get round a corner on the inside of them (bit like a wallride) and they don't budge, they stay on the track and keep going.  I would totally avoid doing this to someone online as it would likely spin them off into the wall and wreck their race.  I sometimes find less experienced players can come onto multiplayer from career and race people in the same way they would AI not realising they are going to end up taking someone out.  

If I was going to fix anything it would be the above -  I'd make the AI cars "react" in the same way a multiplayer car would.


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For me, here are my response.

What do you like about the AI

The competitiveness of the AI. I find the AI to be really fun to race with as if it feels like I am racing with a competitor than a scripted AI that drives like a robot. The randomness of the AI is pretty great where from time to time you'll see Ravenwest crashed out or Razer getting first. Most importantly, it happens naturally. Also, the AI is generally well tuned for most track.

What don't you like about the AI

The issue that annoyed me a lot in the ramming at my back during heavy breaking which I think the AI needs to be more aware of the presence of human player. Ravenwest AI does seemed to have some catch up scripts but it isnt really a major nuisance.

What would you improve with the AI

- Reduce the chances of AI ramming your back during heavy brakings and also AI passing the human player
- Nerf the AI to drive a little slower on tracks like Barcelona and Paris because they are considerably faster than say Chicago or San Francisco on the same difficulty. I find the difficulty to be a little bit uneven.
- It would be great if the AI isnt as aggressive as it is now. They do nudge if not ram you quite a bit at times. Would appreciate if it can be reduced without losing its competitiveness.

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The Grid AutoSport AI can often keep a good pace, drive smart lines, & provide a decent challenge, but they can also exhibit some very unsportsmanlike aggression - which not only can make the game more frustrating than fun (especially when striving for good placements in RaceNet challenges), but may also set a poor example that human players may mimic when racing online, turning lobbies into wreck-fests.

Too often, the Grid AutoSport AI blatantly crosses the line from "professionally competitive" to "dirty cut-throat recklessness." Every event seems like a demolition derby to them...

...They'll make senseless swerves off their lines just to block or smack into me...

...When I start making a run on the inside or outside, they'll clip my rear quarter panel just as I'm about to complete the pass, putting me into a spin...

...When they're behind me, they'll avoid braking for turns just to plow into me from behind...

...They'll brake-check me on corner-entry, then take their sweet time accelerating again on corner-exit (especially annoying on Time Attacks)...


Here are some video examples I searched from various posts across this forum showing the Grid AutoSport AI making questionable moves:

http://forums.codemasters.com/search?adv=1&search=youtube.com&title=&author=&cat=8&subcats=1&archived=1&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&within=2+months

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/37165/#Comment_37165
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fMlOkawrRbg

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/32781/#Comment_32781
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VlY76adiCc

http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/2805/grid-autosport-video-review
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SFoUIWswsis

I'm sure some of the YouTube uploaders can provide more.

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I wouldn't change the AI much at all, they're one of the few AI's I've raced against that seem human; ie: make mistakes, go for passes and defend properly. I also quite like the brake checking as it is a legitimate tactic IRL to defend, although it gets a bit annoying in time attack

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The A.I are aggressive with good pace, which is excellent, but it needs to be controlled aggression with less cheap-shots and more awareness.

Another team (or two) besides Ravenwest needs faster pace as a lot of races it's just trying to beat only them, even on the hardest difficulty.I play mostly touring, I'm not sure if this is true for other disciplines.

Another idea would be to leave things as they are, but implement an 'extremely hard' difficulty, especially good for custom cup and online for those who want more of a challenge.

Being able to choose A.I difficulty in racenet challenges would be helpful if we've got to have them, they are like mindless drones at the moment.

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If there was one suggestion for the AI, it would be to eradicate their unrealistic mass. It's annoying how AI cars hardly move if I hit them, but they go straight through me with ease. Other than that, maybe tone down the aggression, & you've got some great AI.

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I don't play online, just career mode and custom cup, but I think the AI is fine - makes for great racing on the hardest difficulty level.

The AI seems more aggressive in touring cars, but the nudging and blocking - and mistakes - are what happen in real WTCC races.

Aaron Westley is a bit a rammer, so maybe I'd spike his tea with tranquilisers, but otherwise I wouldn't change a thing.

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*** What do you like about the AI ***

The AI in this game is just about the best I have ever come across. They are competitive, aggressive but not too aggressive and really make me work hard to get past them. I love the fact that they each seem to have their own characteristics as it makes them appear far more human. I know if I make a mistake they will be on me like a bees round a honey pot and are not easy to block and keep behind you like the AI in F1 can be for instance. They try different ways of getting past so you have to be aware of where they are at all times when in close proximity to them. As mentioned passing them is no easy thing and you need to plan your passes far more than with so many other AI.

 

*** What don't you like about the AI ***

The teammate AI is always pretty poor. So often when I set a series of events my team struggles to compete at the top because the teammate fares so badly.

*** What would you improve with the AI ***

Racenet AI should be adjustable so you can race different levels rather than just have them on medium setting. The AI in Racenet events invariably crash badly early on (the Spa Indycar challenge a couple of weeks ago they could never get through Eau Rouge without a bunch of them piling up and last weeks San Francisco even had them piling into each other just before the second turn). This needs improving as it can be a bit of a lottery whether you get through them cleanly or not and obviously badly impacts your challenge from that point forward.

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My thoughts on the AI, having compared them with and without rubberbanding enabled. Unfortunately, although they drive fairer with rubberbanding off they are far too slow to be any fun even on Very Hard, so;

What I like about the AI:
Generally they're very competitive. I enjoy that they try to defend, block, attack, etc. I like how they make mistakes (lots of times going off under braking). I know people complain that they're aggressive but only in certain situations do they behave in ways that irritate me, which I'll get to. For the most part they feel human and that's a good thing.

I also like that they respond to deliberate whacks or deliberate avoidance. I've hit a few cars and found they hit me back later on, but then they leave me alone because I back off and give them space. It's pretty interesting, although there are still the 'aggressive' cars that are more inclined to giving a bump and those that won't retaliate no matter what. :)

AI in Endurance seem for the most part perfect. I haven't seen them rubberband or cheat at all, although I'm still not confident they suffer tire wear at all.

What I don't like about the AI:
The rubberbanding. Don't try and hide it, you know it's there =P. But, it bugs me that they're terrible under braking and around slow corners, but then accelerate really fast in order to make up for it. In the Grid Series races the rubberbanding is so extreme on Ravenwest that I've had Nathan McKane rocket past me in a Vanquish, along with seeing a K&N touring car set a best-lap 5 seconds faster than everyone else down in 12th.

The AI also have issues when you're diagonal to them around corners. i.e. your rear right against their front left, vice versa. On straights they're aware and they generally back away but around corners I've had them deliberately smash me into the wall - going as far as to go completely offline to wreck me. I can prove it because on subsequent laps they were giving the same corner a one-car-width gap, but with me alongside them they shunted me into the barrier and even spun themselves in the process.

Their awareness in general is good, but in these instances they become very uncharacteristically aggressive. I can tolerate being barged around a corner or rear-ended, but I can't tolerate what is a deliberate, unprovoked "I'm going to put you in the wall because you're ahead of me" move.

What would I improve with the AI:
A few things:
1) You should teach the AI to brake and take corners better. For the most part without rubberbanding they're competitive, but on some tracks (such as Brands Hatch) they are woeful under braking. You could perhaps re-tune their braking and slow-corner behaviour and nerf or remove the rubberbanding to provide a fairer experience - or at the least nerf the rubberbanding at the start of races so the AI don't rocket away unfairly and don't post laps 4-5s faster than what is physically possible whilst they catch back up. Some of the effects of the rubberbanding could be mitigated by giving the AI known 'good' tuning setups so that they're naturally faster/handle corners better. I've noticed for the most part they ignore tuning (except for ride height, which I've noticed many of them do use). Give them good tuning setups so they don't have to rely on rubber-banding to beat me :-) Without rubber-banding the AI skill levels spread them out far too quickly too, whereas I expected them to stick together a bit better. Funny to note, Oakley do better with it turned off.

2) You could try and make the AI more aware of overtaking possibilities. Plenty of times in Touring I've given an AI car enough room to pass but they backed out of it. They back out even if I just come remotely close to them, but they overtake each other fine. Similarly, in Open Wheel the AI won't ever try to overtake me on the straights, unless I'm off the main line. Winning in Open Wheel is too easy as a result because the Ravenwest cars won't change line to pass so long as you stick to the dominant racing line. This is a problem because they become too cautious on straights and obvious overtaking possibilities, but will still hit me around corners (whereas they're meant to be quite the opposite of this).

3) The AI drive the Supercars and Hypercars too slowly on a lot of circuits - Barcelona, for example, they are far too cautious even on Very Hard and I can usually set a lap 3-4s faster than them in Hypercars on most street circuits. This probably ties into 1). The AI are too cautious around corners speed-wise in most cases in every discipline, but it seems most dominant on street circuits where they brake in places they shouldn't, or brake far too early and take corners far too slowly. On an 8-lap Paris race in the BMW E3 cup car, I almost lapped the AI on Very Hard, due to how bad they are on street tracks.

4) The AI need to be more aware of giving adequate space to cars around certain corners - the corners either end of the 'main straight' of Abu Dhabi, for example, are notorious (my earlier example where they deliberately ran me out of room). On high and medium-speed corners they don't seem too bad and on straights and light corners they always give enough room from what I've experienced.

5) Team-mates need to be faster. The AI drive faster than they do if they're your team-mate. Nathan McKane, for example, blitzes the touring cars as an opponent but as a team-mate the Kicker cars trash him. It means that unless you're driving for Kicker or Forge or Ravenwest, your team-mate always comes last.

6) Ravenwest are impossible to beat in the Touring Car races in the 2nd Grid Series. They accelerate way too quickly. I can beat them in every other event on Hard, but the Touring Cars I had to drop to Medium to keep up. I understand that the AI for touring cars is supposed to be tough but in this instance it seems downright unfair.


That's a big list of things I think that could be used to improve the AI. The main ones are to make them stop crashing me on corners so often. The second one is that rubberband in a sim-like game is annoying and should be dumbed down where possible. =P If I come across anything else I feel necessary to mention I'll let you know. For the most-part the AI in touring and street races are fun to race against, and it's just these small things that can help improve them.

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I like the AI for the most part. There are times when I am side by side with one of them going down a straight and he/she/it will slam into the side of me trying to push me off the track. I don't like that. But I wouldn't change much other than that. FYI, I play on Hard or Very Hard depending on what I'm racing.

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I haven't played much career as yet (am waiting til the patch is out :)) so my only real experience of the AI is in Racenet Challenge so this is based on that:

I like the fact they seem to have their own personalities... for example Nathan McKane and Leo Turner won't let me pass them without at least trying to give me a bit of a tap, whereas Sofie Muller seems to let me by with no problem.  They can be quite challenging at times which is also good.

However, IMO they seem to react differently to cars driven by real people in multiplayer... For example, I can use an AI to get round a corner on the inside of them (bit like a wallride) and they don't budge, they stay on the track and keep going.  I would totally avoid doing this to someone online as it would likely spin them off into the wall and wreck their race.  I sometimes find less experienced players can come onto multiplayer from career and race people in the same way they would AI not realising they are going to end up taking someone out.  

If I was going to fix anything it would be the above -  I'd make the AI cars "react" in the same way a multiplayer car would.


The problem with that is it would be too easy to pass the AI if you could easily spin them out. It's already easy enough using the AI cars to get around corners on V.Hard.

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As for my opinion on the AI I pretty much agree with everything that's been posted so far and it's good to hear that people are praising the AI as probably the best AI in any race game which I agree with. Not perfect but very impressive.

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Having a track filled with a bunch of Romain Grosjean's and Pastor Maldanado's does not make a game better, it makes the creators of the AI complete A-holes and would be banned for life if they were actual Drivers.  But it does make this game more difficult and a face punching joy when a race was won by MY clean driving skills or saved correctly.

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Codemasters.....You know this, im sure, but i have just tried to run one of your racenet challenges....ya know, the one at okatuma in the caterhams.

I would like to award you with the WORST AI EVER gold medal...no...PLATINUM MEDAL.....The AI i have experienced so far have been.....bad...AI cars that appear to weigh 10 times as much as the users car.....AI cars that should all have little RED exclamation marks above them...AI cars that as soon as you try to pass them cleanly, they suddenly turn into you ending your fun!

But on the Caterham racenet challenge its beyond a joke.....seriously, hang your heads in shame!

This is supposed to be fun for us, do you understand that?..im sorry but your AI has just become tiresome beyond belief.

Did any of you guys actually put any time into testing this game before release,  reviewing the AI?...thats prolly not a fair way of putting it to be honest with you...i shall rephrase.

Did any of you guys actually put any time in, when testing your product, using a caterham sp300 against your AI? I would seriously wager not. If that is indeed the case, you have the WRONG people working for you in your testing department.

Who-ever at Codemasters tested and then thought that your AI was actually any good, is the WRONG type of person you should have working for you..its DIRE, worse than dire, its LESS THAN MARIO KART WORTHY!.....its worse than the AI you had in TOCA TOURING CARS....the first one all them years back!!

How can this be?.....Your AI is like the pyramids in egypt....the best ones are the oldest ones and they just got worse...ok not entirely true, it seemed to go downhill with Grid2 onwards...funny that isnt it...seems to be a repeating theme with you....what happened?....guy at the top move on to simbin or something?


Look, i know im ranting here but your AI is just the type of driver i avoid at all cost online...they should all have the nick FLASH- before their name!

There are prolly hundreds of guys in the UK alone who could have tested the AI for you...in ALL DISCIPLINES...and they would have done it for FREE in their own time under an NDA [i know i would have] and you wouldnt have this problem now of firefighting the issue along with repair costs of owned cars and save corruptions and cars levels resetting et cetera et cetera.

Can i make a suggestion?...for racenet challenges, if you cant fix the AI....REMOVE THEM!!

/rant



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I agree with what users Cheesenium and TheKazzyMac have already said.

My personal suggestion would be improving the AI in a way they don't all end up crashing into each other in the first corner. It's particularly bad and infuriating when starting in the middle of the pack or from last position - mainly in the Street and Endurance category. 

At times, I've spent more time restarting the races over and over again because the AI kept destroying my car or caused a huge unavoidbale pile-up in front of me than actually racing.


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Hyland said:

I agree with what users Cheesenium and TheKazzyMac have already said.

My personal suggestion would be improving the AI in a way they don't all end up crashing into each other in the first corner. It's particularly bad and infuriating when starting in the middle of the pack or from last position - mainly in the Street and Endurance category. 

At times, I've spent more time restarting the races over and over again because the AI kept destroying my car or caused a huge unavoidbale pile-up in front of me than actually racing.


Yup only the first corner carnage needs some work, other than that the AI is of the best i've seen in a racing game, on the pace and exploiting your errors just like human players would do.

Build on this model codies, you've almost hit the sweet spot. In fact; build on this very same game and formula and i will be looking forward to a similar title on next gen.

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Hyland said:

I agree with what users Cheesenium and TheKazzyMac have already said.

My personal suggestion would be improving the AI in a way they don't all end up crashing into each other in the first corner. It's particularly bad and infuriating when starting in the middle of the pack or from last position - mainly in the Street and Endurance category. 

At times, I've spent more time restarting the races over and over again because the AI kept destroying my car or caused a huge unavoidbale pile-up in front of me than actually racing.


I'm in season 8 in Street and I normally start at the back of the pack on V.Hard and I don't think I've ever seen the AI have a first corner pile up. But then I do stay at the back for the first corner or so before I start trying to overtake the back markers. Did you ever consider that you are what's causing the pile ups?

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Racing against Pastor Maldanado and Romain Grosian clone filled field of 11 cars DOES not make this game fun or entertaining especially, with the latest challenges being the biggest middle finger yet (this side the of the many game corrupts, broken and missing paid for DLC, etc....) 

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 I do not see how a person starting in the back is causing a wreck in the front by passing "back markers" who are not in the front causing said conflagration filling with the no talent AI, to then destroy any real chance for a podium finish within the limited lap amounts. I wondered the same thing..Did I cause that wreck? And I have to say no, because they were already wrecking by the time I get there and then started ramming me to get thru from behind and every side possible. So I have to say they are the not even close to being a good racing AI, they are just good Nascar drivers. Is the Patch like Winter, it's been on its way for a few years now too.

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Hyland said:

I agree with what users Cheesenium and TheKazzyMac have already said.

My personal suggestion would be improving the AI in a way they don't all end up crashing into each other in the first corner. It's particularly bad and infuriating when starting in the middle of the pack or from last position - mainly in the Street and Endurance category. 

At times, I've spent more time restarting the races over and over again because the AI kept destroying my car or caused a huge unavoidbale pile-up in front of me than actually racing.


I'm in season 8 in Street and I normally start at the back of the pack on V.Hard and I don't think I've ever seen the AI have a first corner pile up. But then I do stay at the back for the first corner or so before I start trying to overtake the back markers. Did you ever consider that you are what's causing the pile ups?

Yes, of course, how could I forgot that?! I mean, I do stay at the back and am keeping distance from the AI but then I remembered - it's my fault regardless. Silly me.

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Loore said:
The camera view thread went down really well...


What's being done about all that feedback on camera angles? What will be done about all this AI feedback? Related updates in the works for Grid AutoSport (for all platforms)? Or just food for thought for future games?

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What I like:

It's not robotic. It follows the line like a human, rather than like a machine. It blocks, it jostles for room, it makes tiny, tiny mistakes all the time and occasionally makes big mistakes too. Even Ravenwest sometimes spin out without any other cars near them, and the spin-outs look like organic mistakes rather than the canned animation mistakes of GRID1.

What I don't like:

The pit manoeuvre. It doesn't belong in an "authentic" racing game. It's completely illegal in real racing. I also don't like the rubber banding or the rather wide gap in performance between Ravenwest and everyone else (if you evened up the competition you wouldn't need the rubber banding). When you get close to Ravenwest they get a magical speed boost. Please ditch that.

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