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Announcing DiRT 4

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Any word on whether rewinds are back? It would go a really long way in reducing frustration. Honestly doubt I'll even buy the game if they aren't, purely because I don't have the necessary time to learn the courses and the bad calls like some of Dirt Rally's corners had. "Left 3, Right 3" *Right hander is 4x as sharp* I know there are some people who don't want it added because they have no self control, but that's no reason to punish everyone else. Plus, with rewinds maybe I'll actually be able to keep some of my friends playing for more than a couple weeks this time.
Nobody can learn the tracks, because they're all randomly generated. Nobody's being punished if it's not being added - everyone is required to put in equal amounts of effort.

If your friends can't stick to a game for more than a couple of weeks, they have a very short attention span.
No, they just enjoy fun games and not games specifically designed to be completely unforgiving. I've been playing sim racers since the 90s, and even I didn't last long in Dirt Rally, because I didn't have the time required to have any sort of consistency in that game. Which just made it a frustrating mess. I realize some people are masochist, but the fact is, having options like rewinds makes the game drastically less frustrating and fun for people with lives outside of gaming (especially lives like mine that often times mean I'm not home for weeks at a time) or people who play more than just one game/genre. And lets face it, it doesn't hurt people who don't want it unless they are too stupid and weak minded to simply not use it.

Dirt rally probably was one of the only racing games I ever actually liked that never reached triple digit hours played. And it was purely because coming back after not playing for awhile was just a frustrating experience, nothing quite as not fun as coming back mid championship in group B. Unlike say, F1 2016, where I came back to play having stopped at the start of a race on a track I couldn't fully remember. I was able to use a few rewinds til I got my feet under me again, and had a lot of fun. Started playing both 2 weeks ago after months, Dirt Rally is no longer on my SSD. 

Even going back to league racing on Pcars wasn't as frustrating as trying to get back into Dirt Rally. Largely because I remember the tracks, and wrecking out on the very last corner because my -non existent- co-driver makes a terrible call doesn't happen.

At some point, all the elitist idiots are going to have to come to terms with the fact that this is a video game series, and video games need to be fun for a decent range of people so they can be profitable, thus funding more video games. And then the option should be restored so more people will enjoy the game. Because honestly what's going to happen if CM refuses to do simple things like that, is they will not make enough, and then we'll end up with a completely arcade game all over again, or worse yet, no more dirt games for years again.

All that said, it sounds like I need to read up, because if all the tracks are just random generated, the game is almost guaranteed to be bad, especially if it lacks rewinds.

TLDR, not everyone has all the time in the world to play video games, and rewinds help people like that enjoy the game far more.
You make it seem like rewinds are the ONLY way to make the game accessible. Here's the things we know so far that are in the game specifically to help accessibility:
-"Gamer" physics mode - based on the sim physics, but with extra assists. Should be natural and intuitive (it should still feel like a rally car, not like an arcade racing game) but more forgiving.
-Rally School - No video tutorials this time, there will be an actual rally school to teach you how to handle the cars.
-Career mode stages are scaled for progressive difficulty - All the stages in the career are made with the stage generator, but are curated by the devs. They will start off easy, flowing, and fairly short, and get progressively more complex and challenging as you progress through the career.

In addition:
-The co-driver calls should be a bit more accurate now that the stages and notes are generated together. Instead of people writing the notes by hand and making mistakes here and there, the game will be able to generate notes directly based on the road it's making. There's no subjectivity.
-There will be modern entry-level cars, so you don't start your career with historic cars any more. These cars will be easier to learn.

Lastly: Just because you and your friends want rewinds, doesn't mean everyone who isn't an "elitist idiot" needs them to enjoy the game.

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LOL

Vidya gamez ain't s'pposed to be "fun." They's supposed to require effort! You cain't just "play" vidya gamez - you gotta work to prove you got more skill than some scrubby n00b. If you don't want to commit to git gud, then yer just a lazy casual and you don't belong in the game. Now get off my lawn! Go on - get! Shoo!

/s

...SMH

It's one thing to prefer not to use certain features/options yourself, but it's another thing entirely to want those features/options completely unavailable to anyone else - even when it takes absolutely nothing at all away from you & your experience. It's not just saying "I don't plan to use that option/feature myself," it's also saying "I don't want you to have it either."

It's like saying: "I only drive with cockpit camera, so there should be no other driving cameras available to anyone else - nobody should ever be allowed to drive with bonnet cam or bumper cam because cockpit camera is more realistic, and this game is supposed to be authentic. While they're at it, there should be no automatic transmission option in the game either, because manual is more realistic, and this game is supposed to be authentic. Plus, wheel-&-pedals with full FFB should be the only input option allowed - no gamepad controllers should be allowed because that's too casual, and you wouldn't drive a real car with a gamepad. And everyone should be required to wear a helmet while playing the game from their couch, because real rally drivers wear helmets..." ...Etc.

Nobody's asking to mount machine guns & jet boosters on the cars and go full "arcade." Optional rewinds in single-player offline modes take nothing away from anyone while providing a lot more accessibility & enjoyment to many. Arguing against them on the basis of "effort" and/or "skill" is just being snobbishly exclusive. It's a game - not a job.


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You do realise games can be fun while also requiring effort? If you want to play rally games just for fun, why not look to WRC 6? Sheesh.

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You do realise games can be fun while also requiring effort? If you want to play rally games just for fun, why not look to WRC 6? Sheesh.

You do realize games can be fun without also requiring hundreds of hours of effort?

"If you want to play games just for fun..." ...LOL! Is there another reason to p-l-a-y g-a-m-e-s? Video games are, by definition, recreation.

"...why not look to WRC 6?" ...LOL! "Get off my lawn! You don't belong in my game!"

Sheesh.


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I don't understand why you're getting so triggered. Of course there are more reasons to play games than just fun. Some do it to escape reality - and, on-topic example, looking for a realistic (or as close as one can get) rally experience - because they cannot afford to do such things in reality.

Dirt 4 will cater to both the casual and the serious audience - and this can be done without the implementation of flashbacks. What kind of person will refuse a game that the people of the Dirt team has spent so much time and effort into creating, simply for lacking flashbacks? It makes absolutely no sense.

Sheesh indeed.

EDIT: I should mention that I have no idea whether flashbacks will be in the game or not, so maybe this whole argument is pointless to begin with... haha.

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I don't understand why you're getting so triggered. Of course there are more reasons to play games than just fun. Some do it to escape reality - and, on-topic example, looking for a realistic (or as close as one can get) rally experience - because they cannot afford to do such things in reality.

Dirt 4 will cater to both the casual and the serious audience - and this can be done without the implementation of flashbacks. What kind of person will refuse a game that the people of the Dirt team has spent so much time and effort into creating, simply for lacking flashbacks? It makes absolutely no sense.

Sheesh indeed.

EDIT: I should mention that I have no idea whether flashbacks will be in the game or not, so maybe this whole argument is pointless to begin with... haha.

What kind of person would refuse the inclusion of an optional feature for others to enjoy that would not affect their own in-game experience in any way whatsoever? It makes absolutely no sense.

I guess the game should only be made for VR, huh? Because real rally racing doesn't happen on a stationary flat-screen monitor/TV.

Nobody wants to take effort & authenticity away from you. You can still spend thousands of hours getting gooder at the game if you want to without ever using a single rewind/flashback.


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Operator1 said:

I don't understand why you're getting so triggered. Of course there are more reasons to play games than just fun. Some do it to escape reality - and, on-topic example, looking for a realistic (or as close as one can get) rally experience - because they cannot afford to do such things in reality.

Dirt 4 will cater to both the casual and the serious audience - and this can be done without the implementation of flashbacks. What kind of person will refuse a game that the people of the Dirt team has spent so much time and effort into creating, simply for lacking flashbacks? It makes absolutely no sense.

Sheesh indeed.

EDIT: I should mention that I have no idea whether flashbacks will be in the game or not, so maybe this whole argument is pointless to begin with... haha.

What kind of person would refuse the inclusion of an optional feature for others to enjoy that would not affect their own in-game experience in any way whatsoever? It makes absolutely no sense.

I guess the game should only be made for VR, huh? Because real rally racing doesn't happen on a stationary flat-screen monitor/TV.


You're deliberately missing my point for the sake of arguing... so I shall not express any more thoughts on the subject.

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Operator1 said:
Is there another reason to p-l-a-y g-a-m-e-s? Video games are, by definition, recreation.
It's not as black and white as you'd like it to be. Yes, DiRT 4 and DiRT Rally are both video games but at the same time they are rally simulators. That means that aside from providing "recreation" they aim to provide as realistic rally experience as possible. Part of that experience is... effort.

So if you're looking for a rally game that doesn't require effort, you shouldn't even bother looking at any simulator title. Otherwise you're complaining about something that was never catered toward your needs. It's like complaining that to participate in a marathon you need to run...

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Operator1 said:

I don't understand why you're getting so triggered. Of course there are more reasons to play games than just fun. Some do it to escape reality - and, on-topic example, looking for a realistic (or as close as one can get) rally experience - because they cannot afford to do such things in reality.

Dirt 4 will cater to both the casual and the serious audience - and this can be done without the implementation of flashbacks. What kind of person will refuse a game that the people of the Dirt team has spent so much time and effort into creating, simply for lacking flashbacks? It makes absolutely no sense.

Sheesh indeed.

EDIT: I should mention that I have no idea whether flashbacks will be in the game or not, so maybe this whole argument is pointless to begin with... haha.

What kind of person would refuse the inclusion of an optional feature for others to enjoy that would not affect their own in-game experience in any way whatsoever? It makes absolutely no sense.

I guess the game should only be made for VR, huh? Because real rally racing doesn't happen on a stationary flat-screen monitor/TV.


You're deliberately missing my point for the sake of arguing... so I shall not express any more thoughts on the subject.


I'm not deliberately missing your point. I'm deliberately saying that your point is invalid.


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Operator1 said:
Is there another reason to p-l-a-y g-a-m-e-s? Video games are, by definition, recreation.
It's not as black and white as you'd like it to be. Yes, DiRT 4 and DiRT Rally are both video games but at the same time they are rally simulators. That means that aside from providing "recreation" they aim to provide as realistic rally experience as possible. Part of that experience is... effort.

So if you're looking for a rally game that doesn't require effort, you shouldn't even bother looking at any simulator title. Otherwise you're complaining about something that was never catered toward your needs. It's like complaining that to participate in a marathon you need to run...

As I mentioned earlier, that perspective requires the absence/removal of all features/options that are not deemed authentic/realistic, including: bonnet cam, bumper cam, automatic transmission, gamepad controller support, etc.

I'm not looking for a game that does not require any effort to perform at a competitive level. I like games that don't require hours upon hours of effort just to enjoy & progress at a casual/recreational level. Of course, effort is required to be competitive, but not everyone plays video games for bragging rights or to rise to eSport & YouTube levels of fame & fortune.

Nobody wants to take effort & authenticity away from you. You can still spend thousands of hours getting gooder at the game if you want to without ever using a single rewind/flashback.


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Operator1 said:
I'm not looking for a game that does not require any effort to perform at a competitive level. I like games that don't require hours upon hours of effort just to enjoy & progress at a casual/recreational level. Of course, effort is required to be competitive, but not everyone plays video games for bragging rights or to rise to eSport & YouTube levels of fame & fortune.
We're saying that Dirt 4 will support this style of play with other systems besides flashbacks. We also don't know if flashbacks are going to be in the game or not. The devs haven't mentioned it, so I would assume they're not in; in that case they feel that the systems they have in place for accessibility work well enough for flashbacks to not be necessary.

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BadD0g said:
Operator1 said:
I'm not looking for a game that does not require any effort to perform at a competitive level. I like games that don't require hours upon hours of effort just to enjoy & progress at a casual/recreational level. Of course, effort is required to be competitive, but not everyone plays video games for bragging rights or to rise to eSport & YouTube levels of fame & fortune.
We're saying that Dirt 4 will support this style of play with other systems besides flashbacks. We also don't know if flashbacks are going to be in the game or not. The devs haven't mentioned it, so I would assume they're not in; in that case they feel that the systems they have in place for accessibility work well enough for flashbacks to not be necessary.

Yeah, I get that it's possible for a game to support different play-styles & skill levels without rewinds/flashbacks, but some say the optional feature should not even be considered for inclusion just on principle - and I disagree.


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Well I for one think that flashbacks as a whole ruins the whole concept of rallying. When you rally you do not only compete for the best time you also have to survive the stage. Flashbacks in my opinion removes the survival aspectvof rallying. When you know that a single mistake can seriously mess you up you drive quite differently to when you know that if you mess up you can just use flashback to correct the problem. 

Rally games should make you live with your mistakes, not let you ignore them.

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Well I for one think that flashbacks as a whole ruins the whole concept of rallying. When you rally you do not only compete for the best time you also have to survive the stage. Flashbacks in my opinion removes the survival aspectvof rallying. When you know that a single mistake can seriously mess you up you drive quite differently to when you know that if you mess up you can just use flashback to correct the problem. 

Rally games should make you live with your mistakes, not let you ignore them.

...And here's an extensive list of all the people who want to take that experience away from you:
1. Nobody.
2. No one.
3. None.
4. Not a soul.
5. Any or all of the above.

The inclusion of an optional feature that takes nothing away from anybody while adding more enjoyment for many and potentially helping to increase sales that the company can put back into more improvements/enhancements/content/sequels is a win for everybody.








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Operator1 said:

Well I for one think that flashbacks as a whole ruins the whole concept of rallying. When you rally you do not only compete for the best time you also have to survive the stage. Flashbacks in my opinion removes the survival aspectvof rallying. When you know that a single mistake can seriously mess you up you drive quite differently to when you know that if you mess up you can just use flashback to correct the problem. 

Rally games should make you live with your mistakes, not let you ignore them.

...And here's an extensive list of all the people who want to take that experience away from you:
1. Nobody.
2. No one.
3. None.

The inclusion of an optional feature that takes nothing away from anybody while adding more enjoyment for many and potentially helping to increase sales that the company can put back into more improvements/enhancements/content/sequels is a win for everybody.
Here's a list of people who have creative control of the game they're making:
1. The devs.

If they don't want to add flashbacks, they won't. You can suggest the addition of flashbacks, but it's up to them whether they add them or not. So this entire page has been pretty much pointless. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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BadD0g said:
...You can suggest the addition of flashbacks...

That's exactly what I'm doing. Thanks so much for your blessing! xoxo


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I really wouldn't mind flashbacks as an optional feature when choosing the casual experience in D4. I think @Operator1 has a solid point.


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I think they're in D4. I hope there's an option to turn them off.

When I first heard about the concept (during the same debate when DR came out), I was aghast, but in retrospect I can accept that some people want to see them.

I don't believe any times with them should be able to be used competitively, but if people want them for solo play... meh. As long as I can turn them off, because I wouldn't want the temptation to be available to me in the heat of a moment.

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FYI, I'm pretty sure @KickUp said there won't be flashbacks. (please correct if wrong)

I'm a bit torn on this, while having the function goes against the idea of rallying and driving into the unknown as people have said, the only people it would affect are the ones who choose to use it.

It depends if theres a leaderboard for the career mode, I would personally like to have that so we can compare with friends and others our best times in the pre-set stages. Flashbacks won't make this possible unless they introduce a flashback penalty, say 5-10 seconds but then surely that defeats the point of it using it in the first place.

It feels like with the direction they're going, its a design choice to not include it. Its not like it is going up against other games, the DiRT games and GRID are the only games out there to ever have used this.

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FYI, I'm pretty sure @KickUp said there won't be flashbacks. (please correct if wrong)

I'm a bit torn on this, while having the function goes against the idea of rallying and driving into the unknown as people have said, the only people it would affect are the ones who choose to use it.

It depends if theres a leaderboard for the career mode, I would personally like to have that so we can compare with friends and others our best times in the pre-set stages. Flashbacks won't make this possible unless they introduce a flashback penalty, say 5-10 seconds but then surely that defeats the point of it using it in the first place.

It feels like with the direction they're going, its a design choice to not include it. Its not like it is going up against other games, the DiRT games and GRID are the only games out there to ever have used this.
Well, they could always state that using the flashbacks will make your time invalid for leaderboards. Only times set without the use of flashbacks will appear on the boards.

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bogani said:
FYI, I'm pretty sure @KickUp said there won't be flashbacks. (please correct if wrong)

I'm a bit torn on this, while having the function goes against the idea of rallying and driving into the unknown as people have said, the only people it would affect are the ones who choose to use it.

It depends if theres a leaderboard for the career mode, I would personally like to have that so we can compare with friends and others our best times in the pre-set stages. Flashbacks won't make this possible unless they introduce a flashback penalty, say 5-10 seconds but then surely that defeats the point of it using it in the first place.

It feels like with the direction they're going, its a design choice to not include it. Its not like it is going up against other games, the DiRT games and GRID are the only games out there to ever have used this.
Well, they could always state that using the flashbacks will make your time invalid for leaderboards. Only times set without the use of flashbacks will appear on the boards.
That would be a way of doing it but I can see people getting upset about that in future despite it being a realistic option, its just the way the gaming community as a whole seems to be these days

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I thought I'd read that flashbacks will be available but the number available will be decreased based on the difficulty level. Maybe that's only in the 'gamer' mode?

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Its not like it is going up against other games, the DiRT games and GRID are the only games out there to ever have used this.
I'm pretty sure there were flashbacks in SLRE and Forza Apex

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Didzis said:
Its not like it is going up against other games, the DiRT games and GRID are the only games out there to ever have used this.
I'm pretty sure there were flashbacks in SLRE and Forza Apex
Oh ok, didn't know that

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