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We need to talk about FFB.

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We all know DR first shipped with horrible force feedback. They later adressed that with a patch which made things way better.

However, after I have been switching between games back and forth it's very easy to see DR are very far behind most serious games when it comes to the feedback through our wheels. 

When it comes to the FFB on gravel/snow it's actually pretty good. You feel the self aligning tourque do it's thing, which is the most important force when it comes to FFB. When coming in to a left hairpin and pulling the handbrake the wheel automatically self corrects to the right.
Then we have the much critisized tarmac. This is where things get interesting. Compared to gravel the FFB is very very quiet, sometimes almost non existant. In my opinion, the strange FFB sensation we get on tarmac is the biggest reason people complain about tarmac. I don't mind grip levels much, what is really off is the road feel translated through the FFB. 
When doing the same thing on tarmac, approcahing a left hairpin pulling the handbrake, the wheel goes..... nowhere. The wheels hangs dead in the air. There is no centering force whatsoever.

To me it seems the self aligning torque in Dirt Rally only comes from the road texture. The ruts on the loose surface stages guides the wheels thus acting like a centering force through our FFB. On tarmac where the road is mostly flat nothing guides the wheels. This means that the caster and pneumatic trail have very little, if any effect at all on the self centering of the wheels in DR. The caster is the reason the wheels always want to point in the direction the car is moving.

Hopefully it is only the FFB that is the problem. If not, there is a BIG physics flaw in DR. The driving would be on another level if this worked correctly.

Many things about Sebastien Loeb Rally Evo is garbage. However, taking a WRC to the test drive area actually shows there is good physics in play. Throwing the car around doing handbrake turns is actually pretty fun. The wheel automatically goes full opposite lock when pulling the handbrake. Just release the wheel, let it do all the work, catch it when you need/feel to. This is how you real life steering wheel acts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW41NmI1wss

Try doing the same in DR. No test area but German tarmac. The wheel just stay where you let go of it. No reaction, no self centering. Something is really wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faIv_hD1VaM

I've tried Assetto Corsa, R3E, SLRE. All of them have believable self centering forces coming from the caster effect. DR does not, which is a real shame.





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bogani said:
Then we have the much critisized tarmac. This is where things get interesting. Compared to gravel the FFB is very very quiet, sometimes almost non existant. In my opinion, the strange FFB sensation we get on tarmac is the biggest reason people complain about tarmac.

I couldn't care less about the FFB on tarmac myself, it just bugs me that the cars move completely wrong. A bit too similar to Colin McRae Rally 1, 2, 3, 4 & 2005. Hovercraft. Shoo.

Good post but yeah, just pointing this out.

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Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes

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KevM said:
Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes
I doubt a Logitech would make the wheel behave as expected. I generally runt pretty low FFB in games as turning the wheel shouldn't really be an effort. 45-60 SAT in DR. I've tried cranking the FFB up really high but that just makes the wheel wander violently from left to right on straights.

I'll try Monte out, but it shouldn't be dependant on where you drive. The centering force should always want to point the wheels in the direction of the car. It feels like they took some shortcuts when they had to "fix" the feedback after release. The self centering that you feel on tarmac on occasions feel more like a canned effect then something connected to the physics.


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bogani said:
KevM said:
Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes
I doubt a Logitech would make the wheel behave as expected. I generally runt pretty low FFB in games as turning the wheel shouldn't really be an effort. 45-60 SAT in DR. I've tried cranking the FFB up really high but that just makes the wheel wander violently from left to right on straights.

I'll try Monte out, but it shouldn't be dependant on where you drive. The centering force should always want to point the wheels in the direction of the car. It feels like they took some shortcuts when they had to "fix" the feedback after release. The self centering that you feel on tarmac on occasions feel more like a canned effect then something connected to the physics.


From memory, on PC, I was running 120 SAT.  It was wheel weight and tyre friction that were 'canned' and actually dampened the natural 'physical' forces.  I reduced them to @ 10/15 I think.

I haven't had violent wheel oscillations with my FFB settings at all, unless I run like a crazy 180 degrees rotation or something...

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Out of the three, Assetto Corsa has the most responsive feedback. I find DR to be a bit soft feeling and slower compared to AC when I go from one to the other especially with counter steering in a slide

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Reduce your wheel weight & tyre friction then.  They are both false damping

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I think I have those both set to the lowest, can't remember. Its perfectly playable, just saying that the force feedback range seems to be more in AC than DR

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KevM said:
Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes
PCars is actually pretty decent once you set it up correctly. Apparently this was too difficult for the Dev's to make as a standard for individual wheels and left it to the end user. Let me know if you want any help. Once you know how it works it actually makes a lot of sense.

@bogani Do you have a CSL? I've always found the FFB in DR pretty lacking. I made FFB presets for the different locations in the game, because you can't make one that's universal. Especially since the Hill climb, rally and RX are on different physics.
I've said many times before, but once again, D2 and D3 do not have this issue. The dirt "feeling" isn't as good, but the base FFB is definitely better and more stable. I don't think you're saying anything new here.

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JZStudios said:
KevM said:
Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes
PCars is actually pretty decent once you set it up correctly. Apparently this was too difficult for the Dev's to make as a standard for individual wheels and left it to the end user. Let me know if you want any help. Once you know how it works it actually makes a lot of sense.

@bogani Do you have a CSL? I've always found the FFB in DR pretty lacking. I made FFB presets for the different locations in the game, because you can't make one that's universal. Especially since the Hill climb, rally and RX are on different physics.
I've said many times before, but once again, D2 and D3 do not have this issue. The dirt "feeling" isn't as good, but the base FFB is definitely better and more stable. I don't think you're saying anything new here.
Nope. I have a T500RS.

I'm not talking about small details in the FFB. The problem is that the wheel remains totally dead without reaction when pulling the handbrake on tarmac. This makes me believe the SAT in DR relies only on the texture of the road, not the geometry of the suspension/steering rack. That's a pretty big issue IMO.

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thing is it really depends on what device you using and if you set it up right.

for a start i find that dirt rally on gravel / wales is about as it gets in a rally game. self aligning tourque as i mentioned before is weird when up high.drop it low and this game becomes so much better. as i said though it depends on how you have your wheel set up and what wheel you have.

so many factors.

the tarmac in dirt rally isnt great we know that.assetto has is better but that isnt perfect either.car movements can be odd at times and odd grip.so you end up working with what you have.which is why i mainly stopped on gravel wales.which is as put as close as any game has got to proper rally.

looking forward to trying Dirt 4 on tarmac as that was dirt rally weakness.if thats better is should be amazing.im hoping the original handling isnt messed with too much.

as for someone swearing or mentioning pcars in a handling sentance actually worries me sometimes :Dit has the worst system for handling phsyics i ever played.

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bogani said:
JZStudios said:
KevM said:
Im not sure I agree entirely (with OP). 

It was on a German stage that I first had a revelation with Self Aligning Torque in the Mk2 Escort and subsequently (on the same german stage) tuned the FFB to suit, that day transformed the game for me immeasurably.  

Later, on the Monte tarmac, I recorded my M3 drift video.  I found the FFB was bang-on & quite intuitive, or I wouldnt have been able to drive as I did.  
When racing on Monte, I get Self-correction on the hairpins as expected.

I have used both the PC and Xbox, both need fairly different FFB tuning to get a similar feel.  I started off on a DFGT, then a G27 and then 2 G920's.  

Maybe different wheel brand presets give different results?  I cant say, as I have never used anything other than Logitech

I also have owned Assetto Corsa and ProjectCARS and never found them to be anywhere near as intuitive to pick up and play.  PCars is actually a disaster as far as FFB goes
PCars is actually pretty decent once you set it up correctly. Apparently this was too difficult for the Dev's to make as a standard for individual wheels and left it to the end user. Let me know if you want any help. Once you know how it works it actually makes a lot of sense.

@bogani Do you have a CSL? I've always found the FFB in DR pretty lacking. I made FFB presets for the different locations in the game, because you can't make one that's universal. Especially since the Hill climb, rally and RX are on different physics.
I've said many times before, but once again, D2 and D3 do not have this issue. The dirt "feeling" isn't as good, but the base FFB is definitely better and more stable. I don't think you're saying anything new here.
Nope. I have a T500RS.

I'm not talking about small details in the FFB. The problem is that the wheel remains totally dead without reaction when pulling the handbrake on tarmac. This makes me believe the SAT in DR relies only on the texture of the road, not the geometry of the suspension/steering rack. That's a pretty big issue IMO.
I was going to say that I would video the tarmac SAT when i go home, but not sure I can.  My handbrake is a wheel button! :)

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dgeesi0 said:
thing is it really depends on what device you using and if you set it up right.

for a start i find that dirt rally on gravel / wales is about as it gets in a rally game. self aligning tourque as i mentioned before is weird when up high.drop it low and this game becomes so much better. as i said though it depends on how you have your wheel set up and what wheel you have.

so many factors.

the tarmac in dirt rally isnt great we know that.assetto has is better but that isnt perfect either.car movements can be odd at times and odd grip.so you end up working with what you have.which is why i mainly stopped on gravel wales.which is as put as close as any game has got to proper rally.

looking forward to trying Dirt 4 on tarmac as that was dirt rally weakness.if thats better is should be amazing.im hoping the original handling isnt messed with too much.

as for someone swearing or mentioning pcars in a handling sentance actually worries me sometimes :Dit has the worst system for handling phsyics i ever played.
This issue comes from either the physics or the way FFB is translated from the game. The T500 is more than capable and no settings will make the wheel self center like it should. Sadly.

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bogani said:
I doubt a Logitech would make the wheel behave as expected.

I dont mean the wheel brand by the way, I know that you Thrustmaster guys like to think of yourselves as the 'Elite', and us Logitech scummers as the poor relations that no-one bothers with  :p :D  

I mean the actual in-game menu 'brand preset' optimisation.  A wheel isnt generic in Dirt, but specifically selected in the setup menu. 



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dgeesi0 said:
the funny thing is on logitech wheels is does center as it should :D
Please record a video of your wheel while pulling the e-brake on tarmac. If not, I call BS on that statement.
The only difference another brand would make would be the high end direct drive wheels that bypasses the original FFB.

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bogani said:
dgeesi0 said:
the funny thing is on logitech wheels is does center as it should :D
Please record a video of your wheel while pulling the e-brake on tarmac. If not, I call BS on that statement.
The only difference another brand would make would be the high end direct drive wheels that bypasses the original FFB.
Iv just screwed my new Wheel Stand together so I'll try and video a demo of the tarmac SAT here shortly

EDIT:  SAT works fine in Germany, EXCEPT when handbraking a hairpin.  Powerslides etc do as they would on gravel.  I don't see that as an issue?

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KevM said:

 EXCEPT when handbraking a hairpin.  
No further comments. Everyone's aware of an issue on tarmac with handbrake, anywhere.  Afterall it's better than V1. Let's hope guys and gals at studio did something about it in D4. :)

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It's fine!  For all the bit that's missing, it's not a fundamental issue.  I initiate a slide with the wand & power out of it.  As soon as the power takes over the slide, the wheel forces act.

PS Here's another revelation.  The tarmac hovercraft 'weirdness' happens on gravel also, it's just less apparent due to the increased sliding!

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KevM said:
bogani said:
dgeesi0 said:
the funny thing is on logitech wheels is does center as it should :D
Please record a video of your wheel while pulling the e-brake on tarmac. If not, I call BS on that statement.
The only difference another brand would make would be the high end direct drive wheels that bypasses the original FFB.
Iv just screwed my new Wheel Stand together so I'll try and video a demo of the tarmac SAT here shortly

EDIT:  SAT works fine in Germany, EXCEPT when handbraking a hairpin.  Powerslides etc do as they would on gravel.  I don't see that as an issue?
On a side note, how you liking the Wheelstand?

I'm still pretty sure we're all in agreement here that the FFB isn't perfect. In fact I'm not even really sure it should be considered good on tarmac.
I personally have a big issue myself with wheel centering forces, because games tend to be that it either makes it too hard to turn, or it doesn't really turn at all... not a whole lot of in between.
So, I guess I'm just used to it? I am actually thoroughly impressed by the FFB in The Crew actually. It's really pretty darn good, for having some TERRIBLE physics.

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Hey! What do you guys think about something i've had propose also in the Dirty gossip topic. 
Would you like to see the Devs to provide "Realistic" setup & settigs guide line / preset to each of the supported wheel model. This would / could have been created by using a IRL rally driver (which we have also in this community) and his feedback to get each wheel model to give as most realistic FFB behaviour and feeling that can be produced by that wheel. 

No more guessing for people like me that have never driven a rally car, how it should feel.

Some people like their wheel to give some FFB forces that don't really come through the wheel IRL, but in this suggestion, those should be kept at minimun and be a starting point that gives realistic and natural wheel FFB behaviour only. 
These presets and guide lines, could be provided after the game, via forum/blog or similar.
Edit: Would also like to point out that, this should include in-game FFB settings and Profiler/ or similar wheel based settings.

What do you guys think?

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JZStudios said:
KevM said:
bogani said:
dgeesi0 said:
the funny thing is on logitech wheels is does center as it should :D
Please record a video of your wheel while pulling the e-brake on tarmac. If not, I call BS on that statement.
The only difference another brand would make would be the high end direct drive wheels that bypasses the original FFB.
Iv just screwed my new Wheel Stand together so I'll try and video a demo of the tarmac SAT here shortly

EDIT:  SAT works fine in Germany, EXCEPT when handbraking a hairpin.  Powerslides etc do as they would on gravel.  I don't see that as an issue?
On a side note, how you liking the Wheelstand?

I'm still pretty sure we're all in agreement here that the FFB isn't perfect. In fact I'm not even really sure it should be considered good on tarmac.
I personally have a big issue myself with wheel centering forces, because games tend to be that it either makes it too hard to turn, or it doesn't really turn at all... not a whole lot of in between.
So, I guess I'm just used to it? I am actually thoroughly impressed by the FFB in The Crew actually. It's really pretty darn good, for having some TERRIBLE physics.
It's not even close to good on tarmac. The roadfeel is very strange through the FFB. 

And for some it might be a small issue @KevM, but why on earth would the centering forces stop to act when pulling the stick? That tells me something is very wrong and that DR/D4 could be even better than it is.

And yes, I do agree that the loose surfaces cleverly hides some of the strangeness in the physics.

Who knows, maybe it'll feel great in D4 but I believe the FFB will be about the same.

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It could be something to do with lower harder suspension & less travel transmitting through steering?  I don't know.  I get enough feeling to do as I need to on tar, so can't complain really  

@JZStudios still undecided on the wheel stand.  It's just different at the minute & I haven't got used to a different driving position or sitting in front of a big TV yet.  I was previously on a desk with a monitor.  I actually had it lifting off the ground on a few stages last night which I don't like, but I think that was more the way I had it adjusted & positioned at that point

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KevM said:
It could be something to do with lower harder suspension & less travel transmitting through steering?  I don't know.  I get enough feeling to do as I need to on tar, so can't complain really  

@JZStudios still undecided on the wheel stand.  It's just different at the minute & I haven't got used to a different driving position or sitting in front of a big TV yet.  I was previously on a desk with a monitor.  I actually had it lifting off the ground on a few stages last night which I don't like, but I think that was more the way I had it adjusted & positioned at that point
Hmm, I don't have that problem. But mine does start to slide on the carpet under the desk. If you've got it lifting you must be cranking the hell out of it... your feet should keep it planted.

@TuliRally That would probably be the best, but there's literally over 20 wheels out there that CM would have to buy, then pay for the driver to test each one until it felt right. Expenses yo. Not to mention not every wheel of the same type has the same FFB curve.

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JZStudios said:
KevM said:
It could be something to do with lower harder suspension & less travel transmitting through steering?  I don't know.  I get enough feeling to do as I need to on tar, so can't complain really  

@JZStudios still undecided on the wheel stand.  It's just different at the minute & I haven't got used to a different driving position or sitting in front of a big TV yet.  I was previously on a desk with a monitor.  I actually had it lifting off the ground on a few stages last night which I don't like, but I think that was more the way I had it adjusted & positioned at that point
Hmm, I don't have that problem. But mine does start to slide on the carpet under the desk. If you've got it lifting you must be cranking the hell out of it... your feet should keep it planted.

@TuliRally That would probably be the best, but there's literally over 20 wheels out there that CM would have to buy, then pay for the driver to test each one until it felt right. Expenses yo. Not to mention not every wheel of the same type has the same FFB curve.
I had a Fanatec wheelstand before and had no problems with lifting. I had the Clubsport pedals though, they are quite heavy.

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