Dirt 4 physics

[DarkRedslayer 43]

I've been really busy, and haven't been able to keep up with news, has it been made clear yet what dirt 4 physics will be like? Are they going to be good and hard like Dirt Rally? Or are they going back to arcade?

In a perfect world, they would keep the physics, and add in rewinds and difficulty levels, so people like me who simply don't have time to play the game on a regular basis, and also play many different game types meaning my time is even more limited for it, can better enjoy the game. Because admittedly, coming back after awhile and having to readjust all the while either having to restart a race 100000 times, or lose everything I'd worked up to while I sort myself out, is incredibly frustrating, and is the #1 reason my hours played are really low for this game. I love the physics, I hate constantly crashing out because I don't play often lol.

I never understood the hate for rewinds anyway, you can simply not use them if you don't like them. And it's really helpful for over all enjoyment for people with less time on their hands or variety gamers.

But if they are going back to arcade physics, then I'm going to be disappointed. I enjoy the challenge and feel, I just want some crutches to use when I come back from a long exodus :P

[SkiddyMcCrash 311]

DarkRedslayer said:

I've been really busy, and haven't been able to keep up with news, has it been made clear yet what dirt 4 physics will be like? Are they going to be good and hard like Dirt Rally? Or are they going back to arcade?

Both. You get to chose between sim or arcade handling

[Scyy 0]

Basically it's going to be the best of both worlds.

[DarkRedslayer 43]

Hmm. I don't think any game that's come out in the past 25 years that said it was the "best of both" was actually very good at both at the same time lol. I think I'll wait a bit to see what the actual results are after release.

Thanks for the answers :)

[SkiddyMcCrash 311]

I've played the game and I can tell you that if it fails at being 'Best of both worlds' then it's the arcade that's faulty as the sim side works perfectly.

[DarkRedslayer 43]

SkiddyMcCrash said:

I've played the game and I can tell you that if it fails at being 'Best of both worlds' then it's the arcade that's faulty as the sim side works perfectly.

I certainly hope you're right lol.

[BadD0g 0]

I don't know if rewinds are going to be in (someone correct me) but the sim physics are an improvement on DR's physics. The gamer physics are based on the sim physics but have extra assists, so they should feel intuitive and believable but more forgiving. Should be a good for those who want to play that way I think. The career mode is going to be fully fleshed out and there will be a rally school as well, so it should be you should have a much more inviting way to learn rather than just diving in like DR. Plus, the career mode stages will start off easy and get progressively more difficult as you go.

Of course we won't know for sure what everything's like until release, but with the information we've got now it's looking like there will be a great set of choices for different types of play, without compromising the realism for those who want it.

[Operator1 4]

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories/1331841547561/dirt-4-interview-red-bull-games

"...DiRT 4 will resonate with all players regardless of whether they consider themselves an arcade or sim racer. The beauty is that you can choose exactly what type of experience you want to have, and then play the game on your terms. If you want something fun that doesn’t require in-depth knowledge of automotive engineering and vehicle dynamics, then you can just dive into the game and have a great time. If you loved the challenge of DiRT Rally, then you can switch to the Sim Handling mode and have an experience that is even closer to the real deal than we managed to achieve with DiRT Rally...

...one of the key things we learned from DiRT Rally was that people wanted a more gradual introduction into the game. People who had the patience and the time to get to grips with DiRT Rally were incredibly complimentary of it, but there was definitely a steep learning curve.

With DiRT 4 we are doing everything we can to ensure that all players can get to grips with the game and develop as a driver as they work their way through their career. This doesn’t mean dumbing things down for those who loved DiRT Rally; those players can still get that experience from DiRT 4. This is all about taking new players by the hand and leading them into the experience.

We want people to feel they can learn and improve as they play so that everyone can eventually reach the skill levels required to attack our most challenging stages if they want to. DiRT 4 is all about player choice, letting you determine what type of experience and challenge you want and letting you find your feet at your own pace through the game..."



http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/244286/#Comment_244286

KickUp said:

Operator1 said:

I have a few questions & concerns for CodeMasters (KickUp & ChristinaMc ) about DiRT 4 based on what I've seen/read so far:

(I apologize if these have already been addressed - I can't keep up with the recent explosion of posts across threads all over the forum & the internet regarding DiRT 4.)

1) Can players experiment with learning the more challenging sim-like driving physics without the buzzkill of more punishing game penalties (like having your run through an event completely ended just because of a minor error/mishap)?

2) Is player progression slowed based on selected options (assists, rewinds, restarts, etc.)? It seems silly (to me) to try to appeal to those seeking a fun/casual experience by making them grind more if they choose fun/casual options.
Long grinding ≠ fun/casual.

3) I really hope there are not any trick/drift/stunt/demolition-based events or achievements/trophies in DiRT 4. When motorsport games encourage/incentivize any form of reckless driving, it can poison PvP multiplayer modes by giving many players the impression that the game is meant to be played with unsportsmanlike disregard for opponents.

4) Are the stages produced by "Your Stage" randomized by parameter-driven procedural-generation? Or are the results from identical parameter combinations globally constant - if all players select the exact same stage parameters that everyone else selects, does "Your Stage" generate the exact same stage for every player every time?

5) How are you addressing competitive balance among the cars in each class? It's not uncommon for motorsport games to have just 1 car in each class that generally gets more wins for more players than any other car in the same class, making it almost pointless to drive anything else if you want to win.

6) How are you improving RaceNet reliability for DiRT 4?

Thanks

(Please no speculative pseudo-answers from forum members who can only guess with uncertain responses like "I would think" or "I assume" or "I'm pretty sure" etc.)

1. Absolutely. You can go full sim but set all the assists and difficulty to easy or go for Gamer handling and set everything to max difficulty. 

2. No, the balancing is carefully measured so that it should never feel like a grind

3. Joyride mode is based on skill and is against the clock. We'll be punishing overly aggressive players online too

4. Randomised, so using the same parameters as your friend will result in different stages being generated. If you like a stage you'll be able to share it and it will be identical. 

5. Our car classes are being reworked to make them based on engine size and drivetrain rather than the year when they were made. They will be closer as a result. 

6. Feeding the hamster that powers the server with higher protein food. 

[tbtstt 2,387]

I actually think that "best of both worlds" is a bad expression to describe DiRT 4, as that it implies that it sits somewhere between the two. 

"Choice of both worlds" is probably a better term as there are a raft of options to tweak the game to suit you. 

[SirPhilMcKraken 279]

They've done it the right way around, instead of making arcade handling "more difficult" to give the impression its sim, its sim handling but with assists

[DarkRedslayer 43]

Operator1 said:

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories/1331841547561/dirt-4-interview-red-bull-games

"...DiRT 4 will resonate with all players regardless of whether they consider themselves an arcade or sim racer. The beauty is that you can choose exactly what type of experience you want to have, and then play the game on your terms. If you want something fun that doesn’t require in-depth knowledge of automotive engineering and vehicle dynamics, then you can just dive into the game and have a great time. If you loved the challenge of DiRT Rally, then you can switch to the Sim Handling mode and have an experience that is even closer to the real deal than we managed to achieve with DiRT Rally...

...one of the key things we learned from DiRT Rally was that people wanted a more gradual introduction into the game. People who had the patience and the time to get to grips with DiRT Rally were incredibly complimentary of it, but there was definitely a steep learning curve.

With DiRT 4 we are doing everything we can to ensure that all players can get to grips with the game and develop as a driver as they work their way through their career. This doesn’t mean dumbing things down for those who loved DiRT Rally; those players can still get that experience from DiRT 4. This is all about taking new players by the hand and leading them into the experience.

We want people to feel they can learn and improve as they play so that everyone can eventually reach the skill levels required to attack our most challenging stages if they want to. DiRT 4 is all about player choice, letting you determine what type of experience and challenge you want and letting you find your feet at your own pace through the game..."



http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/244286/#Comment_244286

KickUp said:

Operator1 said:

I have a few questions & concerns for CodeMasters (KickUp & ChristinaMc ) about DiRT 4 based on what I've seen/read so far:

(I apologize if these have already been addressed - I can't keep up with the recent explosion of posts across threads all over the forum & the internet regarding DiRT 4.)

1) Can players experiment with learning the more challenging sim-like driving physics without the buzzkill of more punishing game penalties (like having your run through an event completely ended just because of a minor error/mishap)?

2) Is player progression slowed based on selected options (assists, rewinds, restarts, etc.)? It seems silly (to me) to try to appeal to those seeking a fun/casual experience by making them grind more if they choose fun/casual options.
Long grinding ≠ fun/casual.

3) I really hope there are not any trick/drift/stunt/demolition-based events or achievements/trophies in DiRT 4. When motorsport games encourage/incentivize any form of reckless driving, it can poison PvP multiplayer modes by giving many players the impression that the game is meant to be played with unsportsmanlike disregard for opponents.

4) Are the stages produced by "Your Stage" randomized by parameter-driven procedural-generation? Or are the results from identical parameter combinations globally constant - if all players select the exact same stage parameters that everyone else selects, does "Your Stage" generate the exact same stage for every player every time?

5) How are you addressing competitive balance among the cars in each class? It's not uncommon for motorsport games to have just 1 car in each class that generally gets more wins for more players than any other car in the same class, making it almost pointless to drive anything else if you want to win.

6) How are you improving RaceNet reliability for DiRT 4?

Thanks

(Please no speculative pseudo-answers from forum members who can only guess with uncertain responses like "I would think" or "I assume" or "I'm pretty sure" etc.)

1. Absolutely. You can go full sim but set all the assists and difficulty to easy or go for Gamer handling and set everything to max difficulty. 

2. No, the balancing is carefully measured so that it should never feel like a grind

3. Joyride mode is based on skill and is against the clock. We'll be punishing overly aggressive players online too

4. Randomised, so using the same parameters as your friend will result in different stages being generated. If you like a stage you'll be able to share it and it will be identical. 

5. Our car classes are being reworked to make them based on engine size and drivetrain rather than the year when they were made. They will be closer as a result. 

6. Feeding the hamster that powers the server with higher protein food. 

Thanks for this. Definitely sounds promising. 

tbtstt said:

I actually think that "best of both worlds" is a bad expression to describe DiRT 4, as that it implies that it sits somewhere between the two. 

"Choice of both worlds" is probably a better term as there are a raft of options to tweak the game to suit you. 

SirPhilMcKraken said:

They've done it the right way around, instead of making arcade handling "more difficult" to give the impression its sim, its sim handling but with assists

Good, because I've yet to play a single game where they claimed to have both that didn't suck lol. The most recent was "NASCAR heat evolution" Which just makes the cars plow (understeer) more on "sim" mode but neither mode requires using the brakes at almost any non short track, which is simply not sim at all. They obviously never watched telemetry from a single race outside of super speedways lol.

The other problem "mixed" physics usually causes is cars doing things that make no sense. Which IMO is even more annoying than coming back from an exodus and sucking lol.

[SirPhilMcKraken 279]

The assists on D4 make more sense than previously, most games class assists as TC, ABS, SC and all that. With rally, those aren't necessary and are actually a hinderance when setting up the car so it sounds like they've applied the assists in different ways such as increased engine breaking and I think snappier steering. Things like that.

[DarkRedslayer 43]

After messing around on Dirt Rally a bit today, I was quickly reminded of one of my major annoyances with this game I hope doesn't carry on to 4.

Dumbass spectators being on the edge of the track that trigger auto reset to track. There's just about no game mechanic in existence that takes the fun out of a game more than an auto reset for me. Even magic grass (the grass that slows you down to 40mph or so) in other racing games is less annoying. Hopefully this time around either the spectators can run, or they are in nearly impossible places to hit them. Not on 2 feet off the edge of the outside of a corner exit, of a corner with a jump in it. I.E, high probability. I've been reset while still having wheels on the track. Makes me alt F4 pretty quickly. Its funny because the run I was doing I had already hit a tree and lost a bunch of time, but kept going. Then I apparently caught a spectator with my rear bumper and got reset, and immediately lost interest lol.

[Porkhammer 78]

DarkRedslayer said:

After messing around on Dirt Rally a bit today, I was quickly reminded of one of my major annoyances with this game I hope doesn't carry on to 4.

Dumbass spectators being on the edge of the track that trigger auto reset to track. There's just about no game mechanic in existence that takes the fun out of a game more than an auto reset for me. Even magic grass (the grass that slows you down to 40mph or so) in other racing games is less annoying. Hopefully this time around either the spectators can run, or they are in nearly impossible places to hit them. Not on 2 feet off the edge of the outside of a corner exit, of a corner with a jump in it. I.E, high probability. I've been reset while still having wheels on the track. Makes me alt F4 pretty quickly. Its funny because the run I was doing I had already hit a tree and lost a bunch of time, but kept going. Then I apparently caught a spectator with my rear bumper and got reset, and immediately lost interest lol.

That's rally fans for you. I myself only ever had problem with one; and when pointing out how silly it would be for a spectator to stand in such a spot, they actually removed him.

The rest is very authentic in my opinion. You'll have to get better at staying on the road, sorry to say.

It's better than RBR where nudging a spectator meant insta-retirement.

[bogani 756]

Porkhammer said:

DarkRedslayer said:

After messing around on Dirt Rally a bit today, I was quickly reminded of one of my major annoyances with this game I hope doesn't carry on to 4.

Dumbass spectators being on the edge of the track that trigger auto reset to track. There's just about no game mechanic in existence that takes the fun out of a game more than an auto reset for me. Even magic grass (the grass that slows you down to 40mph or so) in other racing games is less annoying. Hopefully this time around either the spectators can run, or they are in nearly impossible places to hit them. Not on 2 feet off the edge of the outside of a corner exit, of a corner with a jump in it. I.E, high probability. I've been reset while still having wheels on the track. Makes me alt F4 pretty quickly. Its funny because the run I was doing I had already hit a tree and lost a bunch of time, but kept going. Then I apparently caught a spectator with my rear bumper and got reset, and immediately lost interest lol.

That's rally fans for you. I myself only ever had problem with one; and when pointing out how silly it would be for a spectator to stand in such a spot, they actually removed him.

The rest is very authentic in my opinion. You'll have to get better at staying on the road, sorry to say.

It's better than RBR where nudging a spectator meant insta-retirement.

Authentic? My god the zero cars would see to that every single stage in every rally would be cancelled irl!

[cjl9 12]

Hmm! Depends on the era.                                                                    

[bogani 756]

I'm obviously talking about todays rallies :)

[tbtstt 2,387]

Porkhammer said:

DarkRedslayer said:

After messing around on Dirt Rally a bit today, I was quickly reminded of one of my major annoyances with this game I hope doesn't carry on to 4.

Dumbass spectators being on the edge of the track that trigger auto reset to track. There's just about no game mechanic in existence that takes the fun out of a game more than an auto reset for me. Even magic grass (the grass that slows you down to 40mph or so) in other racing games is less annoying. Hopefully this time around either the spectators can run, or they are in nearly impossible places to hit them. Not on 2 feet off the edge of the outside of a corner exit, of a corner with a jump in it. I.E, high probability. I've been reset while still having wheels on the track. Makes me alt F4 pretty quickly. Its funny because the run I was doing I had already hit a tree and lost a bunch of time, but kept going. Then I apparently caught a spectator with my rear bumper and got reset, and immediately lost interest lol.

That's rally fans for you. I myself only ever had problem with one; and when pointing out how silly it would be for a spectator to stand in such a spot, they actually removed him.

The rest is very authentic in my opinion. You'll have to get better at staying on the road, sorry to say.

It's better than RBR where nudging a spectator meant insta-retirement.

This is one of the rare occasions I find myself disagreeing with you @Porkhammer. Some of the spectator placement in DR isn't good at all and, as stated above, not authentic by modern rally standards. 

From my own experience Finland and Monte Carlo are the two locations with the worst spectator positioning in DR: there are several corners where I get the back of the car out and, although the majority of my car is still on the road, the rear ends up clipping a spectator and I'm instantly reset. It wouldn't happen in real life and, although it's only a minor thing, I really hope that the spectator placement is more carefully considered in D4.

[Porkhammer 78]

Well believe it or not, that's how spectators position themselves in reality. You needn't look long on any modern onboard to see how stupid spectators are.

[bogani 756]

There are loads of spectators on the outside of fast corners in DR that would never be there in a real rally. Sure, there's always the random idiot in todays rallies as well that sneaks past the safety cars, but they are rare as the sport of rally can't simply afford too many accidents that involves spectators.

[tbtstt 2,387]

Porkhammer said:

Well believe it or not, that's how spectators position themselves in reality. You needn't look long on any modern onboard to see how stupid spectators are.

Oh yeah, I have been to enough rallies to know that people stand in some daft places! Although I appreciate that the occasional misplaced spectator could be argued as increasing the sense of realism, it is -  as @bogani has already said - not one or two random spectators, but (I would say most notably in Finland), entire groups on the outside of fast (often blind) corners. That's not realistic. 

Random individuals, yes, but large groups in inappropriate places is something I'd rather not see in D4. The game is supposed to represent modern rally and, if the zero car were to run many of the stages in DR, it would cancel them without hesitation! 

[Porkhammer 78]

Yeah fair point.                                                               

[KevM 44]

Worse than that, i was doing a league stage a few nights ago and paused in the middle of the road to adjust my wheel settings.  The option to 'Reset vehicle' was available right where the Options would be, so I flew through the menu to give myself a pointless 15 second penalty and a standing start.  

I retired after that menu mishap....

[bogani 756]

There is also a blind left over a crest in Germany with a HUGE crowd on the outside that I've killed numerous times.

It's not that big of a deal, but proper spectating points would be a nice touch.

I'm also against the idea of spectators running across the road. It's dumb.

[RodgerDavies 933]

I think the spectators are in fair places on the whole, but they've been set up for the stage running in one direction and I'm not sure they've been moved for the reverse versions. This is most noticeable in Finland.