How to fix the short-shift OP(For CM)

[Bodykitflares 2]

We all know that with the F1 2016, short-shifting has suddenly become just about the only competitive driving style. This is very annoying, and can be very uncomfortable to certain drivers who hate short-shifting. What I notice is that the gear-shifts are too slow for an F1 car. In real-life, the cars never stop accelerating. In this game, you lose 2-3 MPH just from shifting. Make the shifts faster.
Not only this, but the cars have a lot of power lag. The power is either there(above 10k RPM) or its not(below 10k RPM). We need to make the power band more natural, meaning that using a higher gear will provide better acceleration, at the cost of traction. This will make it so that there will be some variation in driving style for F1 2017

[kraM1t 22]

The shifting will never be correct because the game has no Turbo modelling system, the car works like a naturally aspirated one and just doesn't compare to Assetto Corsas F1 car that accurately models the ERS + Turbo system separately from the engine model.

[cheech219360 0]

short shifting is fine to be honest. it's the gear skipping that gets me im always jumping 1st to 3td an yes it's alot faster. it needs to stop.

[haydn23 5]

They can atleast reduce it it will never stop. But also there is no turbo-lag in irl f1 cars, and they use the mgu-h aswell as a some clever technology where they reverse the warm air to the turbo, so it does almost act like a na engine. However the short shifting should not be as op as it  ofcause ofc it does reduce the warm air, as ofc there will be less combustion because they're at lower revers, and if used excessively for long periods of time it will decrease the performance of the turbo and eventually there will be a lot of turbo lag. After that almost off-topic point, yes short shifting should not be the way it is. Maybe in-game just make the car bog-down a lot, when under 6k rpm, especially off low speed corners.

[kingmjj 0]

Youtubers who tested the game said it's already been fixed 

[pijin 49]

haydn23 said:

They can atleast reduce it it will never stop. But also there is no turbo-lag in irl f1 cars, and they use the mgu-h aswell as a some clever technology where they reverse the warm air to the turbo, so it does almost act like a na engine. However the short shifting should not be as op as it  ofcause ofc it does reduce the warm air, as ofc there will be less combustion because they're at lower revers, and if used excessively for long periods of time it will decrease the performance of the turbo and eventually there will be a lot of turbo lag. After that almost off-topic point, yes short shifting should not be the way it is. Maybe in-game just make the car bog-down a lot, when under 6k rpm, especially off low speed corners.

Correct, usually the MGU-H is used to capture energy from the turbo at full throttle. They control how regenerative, and therefore resistive, the motor is to control boost pressure at the expense of energy recovery. This is why Honda mentioned a few times last year that their ERS was great, but if they wanted to improve the ICE, the ERS strength would be reduced slightly, because increasing recovery inherently reduces the turbine speed. This is why Merc's compressor/turbine keeps growing, so it can store more energy and attain a higher boost at lower RPMs. This will require more MGU-H power to spool at first, but since their ICE is strong enough, they cross over to recovery at a lower RPM and start absorbing the extra energy.

So when you're just accelerating out of a corner, the MGU-H is not actually capturing energy from the turbo since the turbo won't have spooled up, so this is when they reverse it and use the MGU-H to spool the turbo, then once the engine exhaust pressure catches up to drive the turbo, the MGU-H goes back into recovery mode. So basically even at low revs, you get the effect of a very large displacement NA engine since you have massive torque, but no lag.

The game engine (from poking around in the 2015 game files) just has torque levels for various engine speeds, and since power is a function of torque and engine speed, it basically just happens automatically from there. Interestingly, they do have an ERS power value as well, but nothing I saw in terms of battery capacity, so right now they may just always add the ERS power on top, instead of only adding when the battery would allow.

All that is to say, fundamentally, the property of a turbo engine is to have massive low down torque that tails off at higher revs, which is why the game is programmed to fall off greatly towards the higher revs, and therefore make shortshifting beneficial. I believe that in real F1, they do short shift more in the races but really attack in quali, probably because the battery is fully charged and isn't something they need to have for more than 1 lap, so they can turn down MGU-H recovery, and really get the most out of the ICE and MGU-K.

[Bodykitflares 2]

kingmjj said:

Youtubers who tested the game said it's already been fixed 

We'll see about that in the beta.

[Bodykitflares 2]

I also love how this post has turned into a tech briefing on the current engines and not a tip to code masters about how to program the engine physics lol

[pijin 49]

Yeahh, sorry about that  :D


Body is 16 characters too short.

[Bodykitflares 2]

pijin said:

Yeahh, sorry about that  :D


Body is 16 characters too short.

Oh not a problem. Ya learn a bit everyday mate

[kevinkirk 35]

Bodykitflares said:

We all know that with the F1 2016, short-shifting has suddenly become just about the only competitive driving style. This is very annoying, and can be very uncomfortable to certain drivers who hate short-shifting. What I notice is that the gear-shifts are too slow for an F1 car. In real-life, the cars never stop accelerating. In this game, you lose 2-3 MPH just from shifting. Make the shifts faster.
Not only this, but the cars have a lot of power lag. The power is either there(above 10k RPM) or its not(below 10k RPM). We need to make the power band more natural, meaning that using a higher gear will provide better acceleration, at the cost of traction. This will make it so that there will be some variation in driving style for F1 2017

Everything you just said depends on if you are using the assists to help you drive the car. Short shifting is used when you are having trouble with traction when putting the power down. So,,, if you are not using traction control, short shifting will be faster because its giving you more grip when putting down power from not being in a high rev that easy to spin up the wheels. If you are using TC to help you drive the car then short shifting would make you slower because you have max grip and you are just robbing the car of power by short shifting. Are you using TC to help you drive the car when you are playing?
 

[Bodykitflares 2]

kevinkirk said:

Bodykitflares said:

We all know that with the F1 2016, short-shifting has suddenly become just about the only competitive driving style. This is very annoying, and can be very uncomfortable to certain drivers who hate short-shifting. What I notice is that the gear-shifts are too slow for an F1 car. In real-life, the cars never stop accelerating. In this game, you lose 2-3 MPH just from shifting. Make the shifts faster.
Not only this, but the cars have a lot of power lag. The power is either there(above 10k RPM) or its not(below 10k RPM). We need to make the power band more natural, meaning that using a higher gear will provide better acceleration, at the cost of traction. This will make it so that there will be some variation in driving style for F1 2017

Everything you just said depends on if you are using the assists to help you drive the car. Short shifting is used when you are having trouble with traction when putting the power down. So,,, if you are not using traction control, short shifting will be faster because its giving you more grip when putting down power from not being in a high rev that easy to spin up the wheels. If you are using TC to help you drive the car then short shifting would make you slower because you have max grip and you are just robbing the car of power by short shifting. Are you using TC to help you drive the car when you are playing?
 

However, short-shifting shouldn't become the most competitive driving style: it should be a risk-reward type thing. You should have the ultimate speed with no short-shifting, but with it you would be otherwise more consistent.

[kevinkirk 35]

Bodykitflares said:

kevinkirk said:

Bodykitflares said:

We all know that with the F1 2016, short-shifting has suddenly become just about the only competitive driving style. This is very annoying, and can be very uncomfortable to certain drivers who hate short-shifting. What I notice is that the gear-shifts are too slow for an F1 car. In real-life, the cars never stop accelerating. In this game, you lose 2-3 MPH just from shifting. Make the shifts faster.
Not only this, but the cars have a lot of power lag. The power is either there(above 10k RPM) or its not(below 10k RPM). We need to make the power band more natural, meaning that using a higher gear will provide better acceleration, at the cost of traction. This will make it so that there will be some variation in driving style for F1 2017

Everything you just said depends on if you are using the assists to help you drive the car. Short shifting is used when you are having trouble with traction when putting the power down. So,,, if you are not using traction control, short shifting will be faster because its giving you more grip when putting down power from not being in a high rev that easy to spin up the wheels. If you are using TC to help you drive the car then short shifting would make you slower because you have max grip and you are just robbing the car of power by short shifting. Are you using TC to help you drive the car when you are playing?
 

However, short-shifting shouldn't become the most competitive driving style: it should be a risk-reward type thing. You should have the ultimate speed with no short-shifting, but with it you would be otherwise more consistent.

That's not short shifting that's doing that. That's who is using the tools to get the power to the ground the best by short shifting without A= spinning your wheels and b= doing that without bogging down the motor losing power. That will and should be rewarded and faster just like real life. Short shifting helps with that and gives more traction just like starting off in a higher gear in lower revs on snow. Now if you are using assists to help you drive the car then that is the issue in this equation. That is whats causing you to have this issue because the car, the grip, and the throttle that allows you to be faster is being cancelled out by the assist (TC) that is helping you drive the car.........For example if we are in a drag race.. You are using traction control and I'm not using traction control. I will be faster because I'm short shifting to get the grip down while your traction control is taking your actual power away to get the grip down. At that moment we both have grip but the assist is taking your power away Understand? I'm not the best at explaining things. In order for the game to behave and work any where near realistic then no traction control and who can keep the grip should when the race everytime.  Other wise we all might as well just be able to floor it everytime we get on the gas and that isn't fun or realistic.  

[Bodykitflares 2]

"That's not short shifting that's doing that. That's who is using the tools to get the power to the ground the best by short shifting without A= spinning your wheels and b= doing that without bogging down the motor losing power."
Should we be able to come out of vale/club at Silverstone in 6TH GEAR and ACTUALLY ACCELERATE.

About your comments on TC v. No assists drag race, in theory, these engines are not invisible. Although the power curve is not as violent as the ol' V8s,  the acceleration at 9000 rpm shouldn't be 99% of that at 11000. It's almost like torque is the only thing that matters...
This also goes back to my post about how the shifts take too much time. Whenever you shift(not short-shifting), the acceleration is cut considerably.

P.S. I'm not having 'issues' with this, I'm pretty good at taking advantage of this

[kevinkirk 35]

Bodykitflares said:

"That's not short shifting that's doing that. That's who is using the tools to get the power to the ground the best by short shifting without A= spinning your wheels and b= doing that without bogging down the motor losing power."
Should we be able to come out of vale/club at Silverstone in 6TH GEAR and ACTUALLY ACCELERATE.

About your comments on TC v. No assists drag race, in theory, these engines are not invisible. Although the power curve is not as violent as the ol' V8s,  the acceleration at 9000 rpm shouldn't be 99% of that at 11000. It's almost like torque is the only thing that matters...
This also goes back to my post about how the shifts take too much time. Whenever you shift(not short-shifting), the acceleration is cut considerably.

P.S. I'm not having 'issues' with this, I'm pretty good at taking advantage of this

    are you using assists like TC to help you drive the car? Sounds like that is making the car not behave as it should if you want more power in higher revs.  Normally you shouldnt be able to touch the higher rev range for wheel spin.  Meaning in my gameplay, I need to aim for, I don't know the exact numbers, 9000 because at 11000 I get nothing but wheel spin. I certainly don't need more power in higher revs because I cant be in higher revs as it is for wheel spin. If you are using TC, its allowing you to drive the car in a way you shouldn't be able to. In the higher rev range when you should only be able to do the lower rev range just from the lack of grip.

[Bodykitflares 2]

I use no assists. It's ludicrous that the fastest way to drive f1 2016 is by starting the in 2nd, but then flicking it up to 5th before the apex(and still being able to drive out the corner) 11000 should be the optimal shift point, but it isn't.

[JP072 2]

Well if you are not using assists, also a wheel user?
well I am an i dont have any HUD swiched on so i dont look at the amount of rpm.
But also when you drive you feel that on some tracks short shifting is just more fast out of some corners to keep grip and are still able to accelerate as fast as you can.

maybe the math has not the correct amounth but if it is the fastest way of doing a lap without assists it is not strange that people using this method.

[1512marcel 463]

I have been trying this for the last couple of weeks and gained more that half a second on most of the tracks, short shifting. Closing in on you JP  :*

[carpa 303]

http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/03/f1-ferrari-trazione-fatale/
I find that this article explains really well how the drivers change gears with these new cars, unfortunately it's in Italian but I'll try to translate some parts. 
First of all there are interesting datas taken from the onboards that underline that the shift points are between 11.500 and 12.400 RPM for both Mercedes and Ferrari. The second, very important thing is that the drivers actually 'stretch' the gears over 12000 rpm when they try to keep the rear-end stable, because at higher revs the engine has less torque (which is responsible for most of the wheelspin). When they delay the change, the engine gets to higher revs so after the change they'll be in gear with higher revs compared to the change at the ideal shift point; the lower torque at higher revs will keep the car more stable, with a bit of acceleration loss. Ferrari seems to have improved quite well in this area compared to last year.

[JP072 2]

Half a second is not enough Marcel :*
pick a track and we will sort it out in timetrail, or a raceweekend to show real racing ;)

[Bodykitflares 2]

carpa said:

http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/03/f1-ferrari-trazione-fatale/
I find that this article explains really well how the drivers change gears with these new cars, unfortunately it's in Italian but I'll try to translate some parts. 
First of all there are interesting datas taken from the onboards that underline that the shift points are between 11.500 and 12.400 RPM for both Mercedes and Ferrari. The second, very important thing is that the drivers actually 'stretch' the gears over 12000 rpm when they try to keep the rear-end stable, because at higher revs the engine has less torque (which is responsible for most of the wheelspin). When they delay the change, the engine gets to higher revs so after the change they'll be in gear with higher revs compared to the change at the ideal shift point; the lower torque at higher revs will keep the car more stable, with a bit of acceleration loss. Ferrari seems to have improved quite well in this area compared to last year.

Reinforces my point

[pijin 49]

carpa said:

http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/03/f1-ferrari-trazione-fatale/
I find that this article explains really well how the drivers change gears with these new cars, unfortunately it's in Italian but I'll try to translate some parts. 
First of all there are interesting datas taken from the onboards that underline that the shift points are between 11.500 and 12.400 RPM for both Mercedes and Ferrari. The second, very important thing is that the drivers actually 'stretch' the gears over 12000 rpm when they try to keep the rear-end stable, because at higher revs the engine has less torque (which is responsible for most of the wheelspin). When they delay the change, the engine gets to higher revs so after the change they'll be in gear with higher revs compared to the change at the ideal shift point; the lower torque at higher revs will keep the car more stable, with a bit of acceleration loss. Ferrari seems to have improved quite well in this area compared to last year.

Interesting.. Are these quali or race laps? I agree the short shift thing may need fixing in the game, but I'm actually quite curious how much shift points vary from quali to race.

[carpa 303]

pijin said:

carpa said:

http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/03/f1-ferrari-trazione-fatale/
I find that this article explains really well how the drivers change gears with these new cars, unfortunately it's in Italian but I'll try to translate some parts. 
First of all there are interesting datas taken from the onboards that underline that the shift points are between 11.500 and 12.400 RPM for both Mercedes and Ferrari. The second, very important thing is that the drivers actually 'stretch' the gears over 12000 rpm when they try to keep the rear-end stable, because at higher revs the engine has less torque (which is responsible for most of the wheelspin). When they delay the change, the engine gets to higher revs so after the change they'll be in gear with higher revs compared to the change at the ideal shift point; the lower torque at higher revs will keep the car more stable, with a bit of acceleration loss. Ferrari seems to have improved quite well in this area compared to last year.

Interesting.. Are these quali or race laps? I agree the short shift thing may need fixing in the game, but I'm actually quite curious how much shift points vary from quali to race.

It was mainly quali laps but it also says that Vettel shifted about 200 rpm higher for most of the race to compensate the increased weight of the car, while the Mercedes mantained the same shift points that they had in quali