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Reviews are out ... less sim than Dirt Rally ?!

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If you aren't steering a RWD or well set up AWD with the throttle on gravel, they've missed the mark - Sorry... but it really IS that simple.

I posted McRae's Welsh Focus in car footage months ago.  He has the car set for a corner 3 car lengths before the corner entry, every time - Magic to see.  I thought I was on my own asking for the physics model to be capable of recreating his driving style of knife-edge controlled madness, but it seems I'm not alone - That's Rally driving after all 

I have no doubt that the team have fixed what was broken in Dirt Rally, but in adding weight & aero, they've numbed the rawness of what everyone bought into with DR.  I for one, will miss that

i think they've listened too much to the marketing dept when designing a 'one handling fits all' this time.  The spirit of Rally may have taken a back seat?  

Sim mode really could have been one for the Fearless...

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I'm so confused as to why they went through all the huge trouble of having two completely separate modes, only to dumb down the sim side of things? Having two modes should have actually given the devs some leeway to *hardcore* up the sim handling a bit, and leave the relaxed realism to gamer mode.

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ShodanCat said:
I'm so confused as to why they went through all the huge trouble of having two completely separate modes, only to dumb down the sim side of things? Having two modes should have actually given the devs some leeway to *hardcore* up the sim handling a bit, and leave the relaxed realism to gamer mode.
And werent sim handling supposed to be more sim than in Dirt Rally? Sadly have not heard that so much but instead I have heard that both modes are too easy and forgiving. I can't compare it to real life as I'm not rally driver but I'm not so happy about my preorder anymore. 

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Operator1 said:

I think what everyone is confusing easier for is more realistic...

The general opinion is harder to drive = more realistic when its not always the case...

Agreed. I have not played DiRT 4 yet, but I've noticed that this "harder = more realistic" line of thinking seems to be very common among many motorsport game/sim communities when it's simply not true.

More realistic = more realistic.

...And there's nothing even remotely realistic about cars that typically behave as though they are sliding across an iced-over lake without any tires (as often seems to be the case in some motorsport games/sims).


This.

The sim side has NOT been dumbed down, this is getting pretty tiring.

Dscru said:
It's definitely not as SIM as DR, much more forgiving all round imo.
eg. I just did todays daily challenge - a rallycross at Hells in the supercars. I had yet to race a supercar in Dirt4, I've just used the 1600s & superlites.
I knew the track very well from DR. In Dirt4 it is extremely forgiving. Hitting curbs & outside gravel didn't affect me at all :( The same mistakes made in DR would have given me a ton of trouble to combat through and retrieve.) The same can be said for (going wide on) rally stages.
The supercars also lack the violent punchiness & feedback of DR. (Although I'm still experimenting with the vibration & feedback settings.)

It's very dumbed down on SIM compared to DR which is a shame. I haven't attempted 'Gamer' settings, but with all the assists available in SIM (I race with everything off), I don't understand why this setting isn't as hardcore as DR. Doing full Michigan stages, in career, from start to finish in top gear isn't the most challenging.
I just keep telling myself it's Dirt4, not Dirt Rally 2.
Anyway on a positive note, all the team management additions are great, so no more stock piling  cash with nothing to spend it on :)
 
PS. got the (day 1?) update. No changes to driving that I can feel. 
RX suspension is incredible, it is designed to absorb big bumps which in DR they weren't very good at doing. The cars behave much more realistically now, the RX physics in DR weren't good. These cars are very smooth if you actually watch a race, they don't snap everywhere like they did in DR so this extra level of difficulty wasn't necessary.

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Operator1 said:

I think what everyone is confusing easier for is more realistic...

The general opinion is harder to drive = more realistic when its not always the case...

Agreed. I have not played DiRT 4 yet, but I've noticed that this "harder = more realistic" line of thinking seems to be very common among many motorsport game/sim communities when it's simply not true.

More realistic = more realistic.

...And there's nothing even remotely realistic about cars that typically behave as though they are sliding across an iced-over lake without any tires (as often seems to be the case in some motorsport games/sims).


This.

The sim side has NOT been dumbed down, this is getting pretty tiring.

Dscru said:
It's definitely not as SIM as DR, much more forgiving all round imo.
eg. I just did todays daily challenge - a rallycross at Hells in the supercars. I had yet to race a supercar in Dirt4, I've just used the 1600s & superlites.
I knew the track very well from DR. In Dirt4 it is extremely forgiving. Hitting curbs & outside gravel didn't affect me at all :( The same mistakes made in DR would have given me a ton of trouble to combat through and retrieve.) The same can be said for (going wide on) rally stages.
The supercars also lack the violent punchiness & feedback of DR. (Although I'm still experimenting with the vibration & feedback settings.)

It's very dumbed down on SIM compared to DR which is a shame. I haven't attempted 'Gamer' settings, but with all the assists available in SIM (I race with everything off), I don't understand why this setting isn't as hardcore as DR. Doing full Michigan stages, in career, from start to finish in top gear isn't the most challenging.
I just keep telling myself it's Dirt4, not Dirt Rally 2.
Anyway on a positive note, all the team management additions are great, so no more stock piling  cash with nothing to spend it on :)
 
PS. got the (day 1?) update. No changes to driving that I can feel. 
RX suspension is incredible, it is designed to absorb big bumps which in DR they weren't very good at doing. The cars behave much more realistically now, the RX physics in DR weren't good. These cars are very smooth if you actually watch a race, they don't snap everywhere like they did in DR so this extra level of difficulty wasn't necessary.
Indeed. RX is the last thing to criticize in my opinion. It's brilliant!

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I've only tried the Group B rallycross so far, but I should really try out the supercars as well...

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tilithom said:
ShodanCat said:
I'm so confused as to why they went through all the huge trouble of having two completely separate modes, only to dumb down the sim side of things? Having two modes should have actually given the devs some leeway to *hardcore* up the sim handling a bit, and leave the relaxed realism to gamer mode.
And werent sim handling supposed to be more sim than in Dirt Rally? Sadly have not heard that so much but instead I have heard that both modes are too easy and forgiving. I can't compare it to real life as I'm not rally driver but I'm not so happy about my preorder anymore. 
Sim doesn't mean it has to be hard. It's not that hard to drive a car. It just means it's more realistic, DR had some issues with tarmac and aero, which made cars unstable on jumps. If more sim in this case would mean better aero with heavier (more true to life) cars, then in result they could just as well be easier to control, while at the same time being "more sim"

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Have you driven a real car on gravel?  Its far from easy, even at 30mph.  Try it at pace and any amount of acceleration or braking requires a degree of counter steering & correction.  You can't stomp brakes at 90mph & screw lock on to magically make a hairpin, tyres cant handle that!  DiRT Rally was a success as it transmitted these driving sensations quite accurately, albeit in a simplified manor.  The wildest cars felt the closest to accurate, which struck a balance & probably suited the majority of consumers, but as most have now either mastered DR or F'd off never to return, the People left crave more of that raw Rally goodness from sim mode.  The conquest consumers have Gamer

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KevM said:
Have you driven a real car on gravel?  Its far from easy, even at 30mph.  Try it at pace and any amount of acceleration or braking requires a degree of counter steering & correction.  You can't stomp brakes at 90mph & screw lock on to magically make a hairpin, tyres cant handle that!  DiRT Rally was a success as it transmitted these driving sensations quite accurately, albeit in a simplified manor.  The wildest cars felt the closest to accurate, which struck a balance & probably suited the majority of consumers, but as most have now either mastered DR or F'd off never to return, the People left crave more of that raw Rally goodness from sim mode.  The conquest consumers have Gamer
RBR came years ago and all rally enthusiasts were amazed by the cheer difficulty of the game and the time it took to master, or at least feel great getting to the end of a stage. Then we had years of desert crossing with no quality rally games ... and then we got Dirt Rally, closer to RBR feeling and we were all happy about the skill involved to control a car in slippery conditions. NOW?! we might be crossing the desert again if Codies don´t patch it...

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haha my god people speak about rbr as if it was born from j.e.s.u.s. mum.come on...

Dirt rally was a better game.i played rbr to death.Dirt 4 is better than RBR.people need to move on.RBR was hard for the sake of being hard.hard doesnt make it realistic.

Dirt 4 even untweaked is better.many cars are actually pretty easy to drive in real life. you dont need to be a albert einstein to drive them.




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MaXyMsrpl said:
yeah, and everybody may be a winner of WRC. Think first then write.
Wow, you really just don't get it.

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Believe me I know what I'm talking about. Cars are easy to drive while driving slow. Driving on the edge is f*** hard and complex thing.
We all can agree that driving car in simulation (ie computer game) is even harder because you cannot feel the car by your back so you cannot react as soon as in real car. But if you want simulate real thing, you have at least create a reproduction which performs the same way at least under corner conditions.
Since that, you cannot create a car which has a few times better lateral grip and justify it by saing: real cars are not hard to drive.
First, simulate car which performs simmilar to real one. Then make its handling as easy as possible to gimmick simplicity of driving you mentioned; but without touching the performance.

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MaXyMsrpl said:
Believe me I know what I'm talking about. Cars are easy to drive while driving slow. Driving on the edge is f*** hard and complex thing.
We all can agree that driving car in simulation (ie computer game) is even harder because you cannot feel the car by your back so you cannot react as soon as in real car. But if you want simulate real thing, you have at least create a reproduction which performs the same way at least under corner conditions.
Since that, you cannot create a car which has a few times better lateral grip and justify it by saing: real cars are not hard to drive.
First, simulate car which performs simmilar to real one. Then make its handling as easy as possible to gimmick simplicity of driving you are talking about. but without touching performance.
So I'll expect to see you topping the leader boards since the game is so easy.

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Wrong conclusion. Less realistic doesn't imply more easy. It could be hard as hell. There are thousands of arcade games I wouldn't make through.
Point is we shouldn't argue about realism using easy-or-hard argument. It's unrealated.
If you want to check realism of reproduction of the car  - make masurements. braking distance, cornering speed, centrifugal force or braking distance sideways using hand brake only ;) (I refer to one of published videos)


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Well, I said I'd wait & see...

Im sorry, but it's further from Dirt Rally than I had first suspected from the replays.

Its not intuitive like DR was.  They had the suspension geometry 'feel' bang on with DR & you could feel what the car was doing and feel how it was moving round under you through your wheel.

D4 steering seems vague & lacks the feedback DR had.   I don't mind the vague front end on gravel if it's meant to emulate gravel understeer, but the back end needs to be equally as loose.  The car doesn't transition to oversteer & only rotates quite drastically & unrealistically when braking.  It just doesn't feel right in your hands like DR did

Dont get me wrong, the game front end is world class & YourStage is spectacular in what it can do, but the core of the game, the handling, has went backwards IMO.

I would suffer (really enjoy) V2 physics gladly, in this otherwise fantastic game!

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KevM said:
Well, I said I'd wait & see...

Im sorry, but it's further from Dirt Rally than I had first suspected from the replays.

Its not intuitive like DR was.  They had the suspension geometry 'feel' bang on with DR & you could feel what the car was doing and feel how it was moving round under you through your wheel.

D4 steering seems vague & lacks the feedback DR had.   I don't mind the vague front end on gravel if it's meant to emulate gravel understeer, but the back end needs to be equally as loose.  The car doesn't transition to oversteer & only rotates quite drastically & unrealistically when braking.  It just doesn't feel right in your hands like DR did

Dont get me wrong, the game front end is world class & YourStage is spectacular in what it can do, but the core of the game, the handling, has went backwards IMO.

I would suffer (really enjoy) V2 physics gladly, in this otherwise fantastic game!
After my first dozen or so gravel stages, I totally concur with you. I know @KickUp said they had a pro driver giving them feedback, but I'm sorry, his feedback was either way off base (sometimes non-gamers/sim-racers can't effectively translate their experiences to the virtual environment) or the physics team just got it wrong.

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I have played the game for 85 minutes and it feels very different from Dirt Rally. I also went back to Dirt Rally before writing this and had a go With the Lanci 037 and Ford Fiesta 2010 cars as I had been driving them in Dirt 4. The cars in Dirt 4 will turn much easier than in Dirt rally. The steering is much more sensitive I think. I think they said in one of their streams that this was done after feedback from rally drivers testing the game. Compared to Dirt Rally it is also much harder to get the back to step out. Does this make Dirt 4 less of a sim than Dirt Rally, I dont know. If this is done only because they know that it is more realistic than I Guess it is ok. But until we hear from the devs about the difference in the physics compared to Dirt Rally I am agnostic about its simstatus. Of course I used the simhandling if anyone wondered.

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Also played for 2 hours or so. I agree the rear end is a bit too grippy on gravel (and a bit too loose on tarmac, but that's a different story). But I don't think the grip itself is the only problem.

A big problem is that a lot of us might have learned a wrong driving style from DiRT Rally. The cars there were pretty tight and grip & weight felt to me like it was spread on all corners all the time. (Of course it's not, but it was pretty static compared to real life) Turning into a corner in DiRT Rally gave you grip at the front and after a good turn-in the rear turned around automatically, as if the grip always remained at the front.

In real life that wouldn't always work. Just putting the power down wouldn't result in insta oversteer all the time. You brake for the corner, you turn in and have grip due to the weight being at the front, all good. But then when you would accalerate in some situations you get lots of understeer instead of oversteer. You see the weight transfers to the rear of the car, so the front tires lose grip while the rears gain grip: understeer.

I think our DiRT Rally driving style hasn't prepared us for that. Trying some left foot braking mid-corner will bring some weight to the front, creating some oversteer. Just pounding on the throttle simply won't work anymore, you'll have to work that weight.

But yeah, doesn't mean that the rear grip problem isn't there at all.

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OK..

I drove two CRC (Canadian Rally Championship) WRX STi, a 1998 and a 2002, both with 400 lbs of torque engines with anti-lag, complete rally suspension, yokohama rally tyres and all the stuff going on. Drove them on gravel more than once. I was far from fast enough to compete in real world rally, I was simply a service crew , but I still drove them and been teached how to rally in a respectable rally school.

I felt at home in Dirt Rally in a way that I was fast by predicting the next corner while listening to my co-pilot and literally throttle steering the subaru right after pointing its nose where I wanted it... The cars felt too tight and too grippy from the front but honestly the feeling was good. You cannot simulate a real car's behaviour in a PC game and then drive it with the hardware we have without feeling the car with our butts and G-forces and etc and ask for a good experience. you have to alter the handling so we have to learn, listen to our hands and arms that are our only clue of what's going on, thanks to the FFB, and then push to the limits that we had to discover.. thats a sim for me..

Now in Dirt 4... I lost everything I liked about DR... The feeling of rawness, battling with historic RWD cars that were tail happy and very loose, the car sounds, loud and brutal, the rocks hitting the floor pan and the co-pilot giving spot-on calls, yelling over the engine and rally noises. I feel completely lost in Dirt4. The handling is strange, the sounds are less brutal, more ''polite'' and ''politically-correct'', the co-pilots are meh (I understand the whole my-stage challenge to build efficient pace notes of randomly generated stages..).. I don't know exactly what is going on but it's a big change that's for sure...

The cars are turning SO quick and gripping so much that I feel on tarmac almost anytime.  even in Sweden I wasn't able to properly ''drift'' or spin out my mighty MK2 escort, when in DR I had to struggle to keep it going in a straight line while accelerating. I feel the game lost it's personality... I was afraid of rolling Group B RWD cars in DR at full speed, at the very limit of my own skills, but in Dirt4 I didn't felt in danger at all, and even if it's more '''realistic''', it's not fun anymore. Because as I said, the perfect car physics simulation on a PC rig may be the most boring game we would experience...

The 2015 NR4 STi , wich is very close to a stock STi, completely lost the Subaru feel... You know, the nose heavy, understeering sedan that kicks its butt mid-corner when the center diff finally understand what's going on... ? I never drove that real car, but knowing the modifications , it should still feel like a Subaru... In D4 it's incredible how quick these cars turn and how grippy the whole car is to the gravel.. 

so... is it me ? maybe.. is it more realistic ? maybe too. 

Do I have the same feeling of ''rally'' than in DR ? not at all.. 
Do I feel Challenged by the game when I start a stage... ? Not like I am in DR.

Sim handling mode should have been more Raw and intense than it is now..

We have to focus on what is rally, what's the ''soul'' of it and what makes it so fun. I don't think we have to debate on realism. We don't really care how real the game feels, but we have to fear the stages, we have to push our own limits, we have to feel the game wants us crashed, we have to fear the car itself and battling with it to keep it clean and on the road.... We have to struggle. Rally is a big struggle between a lot of things by itself...

my humble opinion.. 
sorry for bad english and long post.

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This is like deja vu when with Dirt Rally first came out.  You literally couldn't get the back end of cars to kick around on hairpins and they were way too planted like tanks and seriouslly bogged down at slow speed.  Any time you pushed it and tried your hardest to get the car to slide it would just correct itself.  It took them a couple months but they fixed that, but DR was also early access molded by the community.  Dirt 4 is a full fledged numbered title, can't expect game changers like that with this.

I have D4 installed and ready to go, but I have iRacing's 24 hours of Le Mans Saturday so I can't get back into the mindset of rally racing right now.  Just sucks to hear the full sim mode seems to be a little dumbed down.  Gravel in DR was fantastic (aside launching into the stratosphere from jumps), tarmac sucked so glad to hear thats better in D4.  I think what DR did the absolute best is RWD on gravel, it felt so god damn natural.  But I've read a lot of posts that has gone away in D4. 

I know that comes off as negative but I'm nothing but excited as fuck to finally play this after 400 hours of Dirt Rally.  I'm hoping if the handling on gravel is like a lot has said being too grippy and easy CM would listen to the community and work on it like they did with DR. 

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Hope to get my hands on the game today ... but i must confess my expectations are pretty low at the moment...
Your stage made me think this game was the best thing ever, as long as they kept the handling/sim from dirt rally, aparently not.

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Right, I've had some time this morning with the game with my own setup. I won't be moaning anymore about not being able to play D4 in VR (which I have been playing DiRT Rally with) - I expect VR will be on it's way soon!

The cars feel better with my own wheel and settings, but as mentioned before by many others: There is something weird with the rallying physics. The grip level and amount of understeer no matter how you set up the car just doesn't feel right. But, as with DiRT Rally, I guess there will be some updates down the road :smile:

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Benniz said:
Right, I've had some time this morning with the game with my own setup. I won't be moaning anymore about not being able to play D4 in VR (which I have been playing DiRT Rally with) - I expect VR will be on it's way soon!

The cars feel better with my own wheel and settings, but as mentioned before by many others: There is something weird with the rallying physics. The grip level and amount of understeer no matter how you set up the car just doesn't feel right. But, as with DiRT Rally, I guess there will be some updates down the road :smile:

Might be a bit trickier as it's a full blown release and not EA though. Not impossible though ofc :)

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