DiRT 4 - Large discussion in Reddit - Overly high grip on gravel?

[ShodanCat 231]

Gotta bump this - after a few stages, I can say definitively - the gravel grip is way, WAY too high. The AWD cars actually bog down in a first gear handbrake turn. These cars, even the older Group A cars for example, have more than enough power to initiate a 4 wheel drift as long as the driver needs it... here, you can initiate a slide with the handbrake, get about half a second of actual oversteer, then the car's nose immediately pulls to the outside as grip is immediately restored. In the sharpest hairpins in WET gravel, I can get something approaching proper slides but only for a second before the grip just bogs the car down again.

I do enjoy the game so far on the whole, but this desperately needs attention for the SIMULATION side of things. 

[laff 0]

Simulation handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWU06bmqduQ

Gamer handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0T2pghD8Ko

I'm not sure if it's the gravel.

[bogani 756]

laff said:

Simulation handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWU06bmqduQ

Gamer handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0T2pghD8Ko

I'm not sure if it's the gravel.

Yikes. That's "interesting".

[versedi 39]

That's interesting comparison @laff. Thank you for uploading.

The rear of the car in Gamer mode does exactly what it's not able to do because of something holding it in Sim mode.

I'd like to see this with Telemetry Tool cause we don't know what inputs were done there. I'll record one today.

[Headlong 0]

laff said:

Simulation handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWU06bmqduQ

Gamer handling with assists off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0T2pghD8Ko

I'm not sure if it's the gravel.

Looks as though gamer mode doesn't simulate understeer and the cars have too much grip. 

[Headlong 0]

The rally drivers with actual rally driving experience  both seem to be saying that there is lot more grip in a rally car than a lot of people imagine. Exactly what I've been saying all along. 

[Headlong 0]

versedi said:

That's interesting comparison @laff. Thank you for uploading.

The rear of the car in Gamer mode does exactly what it's not able to do because of something holding it in Sim mode.

The reason why the car in simulation mode cannot do what the car in gamer mode does is because simulation mode simulates the inertia of the car. There is nothing "holding" the car in simulation mode. It's simply that the front tyres are not able to provide enough grip to allow the driver to significantly change the trajectory of the car. This is further compounded by the acceleration of the car which shifts the weight rearward. This is how it should be and is what happens in real life. 

[versedi 39]

Headlong said:

versedi said:

That's interesting comparison @laff. Thank you for uploading.

The rear of the car in Gamer mode does exactly what it's not able to do because of something holding it in Sim mode.

The reason why the car in simulation mode cannot do what the car in gamer mode does is because simulation mode simulates the inertia of the car. There is nothing "holding" the car in simulation mode. It's simply that the front tyres are not able to provide enough grip to allow the driver to significantly change the trajectory of the car. This is further compounded by the acceleration of the car which shifts the weight rearward. This is how it should be and is what happens in real life. 

I'm not going to disagree with you, like you do with me but...

Not exactly. Go watch my video in Ultimate Physics Feedback Thread about doing donuts.
You can't do a donut in Scoobie 2001. You can in Lancer.

So what, Lancer suprisingly has better FW grip? What about when you pull the handbrake and suddently stop (on tarmac, not gravel where your point about tyres biting into gravel is valid)? Final how does the front wheel grip is related to rear axle slide in donuts?

[Headlong 0]

versedi said:

Headlong said:

versedi said:

That's interesting comparison @laff. Thank you for uploading.

The rear of the car in Gamer mode does exactly what it's not able to do because of something holding it in Sim mode.

The reason why the car in simulation mode cannot do what the car in gamer mode does is because simulation mode simulates the inertia of the car. There is nothing "holding" the car in simulation mode. It's simply that the front tyres are not able to provide enough grip to allow the driver to significantly change the trajectory of the car. This is further compounded by the acceleration of the car which shifts the weight rearward. This is how it should be and is what happens in real life. 

I'm not going to disagree with you, like you do with me but...

Not exactly. Go watch my video in Ultimate Physics Feedback Thread about doing donuts.
You can't do a donut in Scoobie 2001. You can in Lancer.

So what, Lancer suprisingly has better FW grip? What about when you pull the handbrake and suddently stop (on tarmac, not gravel where your point about tyres biting into gravel is valid)? Final how does the front wheel grip is related to rear axle slide in donuts?

That's a different issue. The videos simply show that simulation mode simulates reality, and garner mode doesn't. And there's nothing holding the car in sim mode.

[versedi 39]

Whaaat?

It's the exact same outcome.

Gravel tyres on Tarmac with 70/30 balance should go sideways when applying full throttle and turning wheel.

ll proove it to you using Telemetry Tool today.

Lancer will work, Scoobie 2001 won't.
If we're going to conclude it's indeed FW grip I'll happily admit to be wrong.

[kobeshow 0]

Headlong said:

  It's simply that the front tyres are not able to provide enough grip to allow the driver to significantly change the trajectory of the car. This is further compounded by the acceleration of the car which shifts the weight rearward. This is how it should be and is what happens in real life. 

Ok, so you are saying that there is an unnatural grip that is providing the Mini's front axle with the ability to change the direction of travel?
Then WHY don't you aknowledge the same thing for this behavior:

"SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:"


This picture sums up what is happening in the game perfectly, getting the car to slide is not really the problem, controlling the slide with throttle is impossible though, midway through there is always a point where it grips and just travels into the direction the front tires are pointed.
In my opinion controlling the car's slide with the throttle has to be one of the cornerstones of rallying, and as much improved as D4 is, the slides were absolute glory in DR, initiating them was maybe too easy, but the control throughout was absolutely fantastic (I'm not saying DR was a perfect sim, far from it, rallying on the moon is wierd).
My theroy is still that the "improved" aerodynamics are the culprit of this, it feels an awful lot like DR V1, just not as extreme as it was back then.
I just hope Codies do something about it, and whatever they do doesn't mess up the tarmac handling.

[Headlong 0]

kobeshow said:

Headlong said:

  It's simply that the front tyres are not able to provide enough grip to allow the driver to significantly change the trajectory of the car. This is further compounded by the acceleration of the car which shifts the weight rearward. This is how it should be and is what happens in real life. 

Ok, so you are saying that there is an unnatural grip that is providing the Mini's front axle with the ability to change the direction of travel?
Then WHY don't you aknowledge the same thing for this behavior:

"SirPhilMcKraken said:

The R5 cars are definitely the best handling of all the classes with the Subaru NR4 behind it. I feel they are pretty close to how the car is handling in that video especially in the corners when your inside wheel hugs the dip perfectly and it brings you round. The best thing I like is being able to balance brake and throttle to drop the front of the car to initiate a slide, its one of the most satisfying things to do in this game which is improved a lot over DR especially due to the improved steering input and weight transfer.

The wheels DO need to have some extra give though in a slide and just have that bit longer to go before finding that grip, I did this picture to explain what I feel with the rear wheels. Red line is what I feel the wheels should be doing, blue is what it feels like they do:"


This picture sums up what is happening in the game perfectly, getting the car to slide is not really the problem, controlling the slide with throttle is impossible though, midway through there is always a point where it grips and just travels into the direction the front tires are pointed.
In my opinion controlling the car's slide with the throttle has to be one of the cornerstones of rallying, and as much improved as D4 is, the slides were absolute glory in DR, initiating them was maybe too easy, but the control throughout was absolutely fantastic (I'm not saying DR was a perfect sim, far from it, rallying on the moon is wierd).
My theroy is still that the "improved" aerodynamics are the culprit of this, it feels an awful lot like DR V1, just not as extreme as it was back then.
I just hope Codies do something about it, and whatever they do doesn't mess up the tarmac handling.

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here, but if I understand you correctly the difference is that in the example given in the diagram he illustrates the classical way of cornering, which is by transferring the load to the front, chucking the car in, and then powering through on the throttle.

In the videos however, the driver simply accelerate from a stand still and turns the wheel while still accelerating, which naturally causes very little change in trajectory of the car. 

I do agree with you that driving the cars on the throttle in D4 is not particular intuitive as the wheelspin is not progressive enough and there isn't enough feel for the rear wheelspin. However, it is still possible to drive the cars on the throttle in D4, it's just more difficult to do than it needs to be. I hope this gets addressed as it will make the experience a lot better. 

[versedi 39]

Headlong said:

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here, but if I understand you correctly the difference is that in the example given in the diagram he illustrates the classical way of cornering, which is by transferring the load to the front, chucking the car in, and then powering through on the throttle.

In the videos however, the driver simply accelerate from a stand still and turns the wheel while still accelerating, which naturally causes very little change in trajectory of the car. 

I do agree with you that driving the cars on the throttle in D4 is not particular intuitive as the wheelspin is not progressive enough and there isn't enough feel for the rear wheelspin. However, it is still possible to drive the cars on the throttle in D4, it's just more difficult to do than it needs to be. I hope this gets addressed as it will make the experience a lot better. 

Yes he does, that's why I'm going to record the same situation but with normal approach - brake to transfer the weight, and then turn wheel + throttle to floor.

[Headlong 0]

versedi said:

Headlong said:

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking here, but if I understand you correctly the difference is that in the example given in the diagram he illustrates the classical way of cornering, which is by transferring the load to the front, chucking the car in, and then powering through on the throttle.

In the videos however, the driver simply accelerate from a stand still and turns the wheel while still accelerating, which naturally causes very little change in trajectory of the car. 

I do agree with you that driving the cars on the throttle in D4 is not particular intuitive as the wheelspin is not progressive enough and there isn't enough feel for the rear wheelspin. However, it is still possible to drive the cars on the throttle in D4, it's just more difficult to do than it needs to be. I hope this gets addressed as it will make the experience a lot better. 

Yes he does, that's why I'm going to record the same situation but with normal approach - brake to transfer the weight, and then turn wheel + throttle to floor.

Why throttle to floor? The throttle needs to be applied gently and in response to what the car is doing, the steering angle, the amount of grip or slip the surface provides etc. 

[madwak 0]

Have you not heard the words "if in doubt flat out"?  :smile:

[Narzugon 0]

I'm not sure if you guys have seen it but grip levels and game physics were addressed by Paul Coleman in The Dirt Show interview.

To me he said alot so watch it for yourself. Here are a few excerpts that I pulled that stand out to me. Again watch the interview for full context.

"We got Petter Solberg and his son in and they were able to spend alot of time playing Rallycross. I think we got very very good feedback from them and got very close to what the Rallycross drivers wanted as a group for their cars to feel like. And so were really really positive and confident that Rallycross is exactly where it needs to be."

"For Rally we didn't have as much time with Chris Meek and we only really got to focus in on the modern cars. Because that's what he has the most experience in driving."

"By now simulating stuff properly we've found that the cars are more consistent and probably have, I guess what people are perciving to be more grip. It's not actually grip. They're feeling like it has more of that stability that's kinda holding it to the road and not letting it break traction as freely as it did in Rally. And as a result we do need to sit down and we do need to look at ways that we can improve that. How those improvements get brought into the game or if they get brought into the game, we don't know at this stage because it's such a fundamental thing to the entire experience. And it really is like a big thing to be switching up."

"But the key thing is they need to be validated by drivers who have experience driving these cars. And ultimately we need to find a driver or a number of drivers who have the real world experience and we need to get that time to sit down and dial this in. Because it's not just something we can change based on many many opinions that comes through. This needs to be done as you would engineer a test session with a car."

Watch just section 30:15 through to 36:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT7g5fqh8Ec&t=240s

[Headlong 0]

Narzugon said:

I'm not sure if you guys have seen it but grip levels and game physics were addressed by Paul Coleman in The Dirt Show interview.

To me he said alot so watch it for yourself. Here are a few excerpts that I pulled that stand out to me. Again watch the interview for full context.

"We got Petter Solberg and his son in and they were able to spend alot of time playing Rallycross. I think we got very very good feedback from them and got very close to what the Rallycross drivers wanted as a group for their cars to feel like. And so were really really positive and confident that Rallycross is exactly where it needs to be."

"For Rally we didn't have as much time with Chris Meek and we only really got to focus in on the modern cars. Because that's what he has the most experience in driving."

"By now simulating stuff properly we've found that the cars are more consistent and probably have, I guess what people are perciving to be more grip. It's not actually grip. They're feeling like it has more of that stability that's kinda holding it to the road and not letting it break traction as freely as it did in Rally. And as a result we do need to sit down and we do need to look at ways that we can improve that. How those improvements get brought into the game or if they get brought into the game, we don't know at this stage because it's such a fundamental thing to the entire experience. And it really is like a big thing to be switching up."

"But the key thing is they need to be validated by drivers who have experience driving these cars. And ultimately we need to find a driver or a number of drivers who have the real world experience and we need to get that time to sit down and dial this in. Because it's not just something we can change based on many many opinions that comes through. This needs to be done as you would engineer a test session with a car."

Watch just section 30:15 through to 36:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT7g5fqh8Ec&t=240s

I agree with Paul Coleman about his coomment that what people perceive to be too much grip is not actually grip. I would be willing to bet that these perceptions are due to the fact that physics are now modelled more accurately and with it the inertia of the car and the friction etc. That's not to say that some fine tuning is out of the question, but to say that the physics are wrong, as some people have done, is insane. 

[Narzugon 0]

I really like this part: "But the key thing is they need to be validated by drivers who have experience driving these cars. And ultimately we need to find a driver or a number of drivers who have the real world experience and we need to get that time to sit down and dial this in. Because it's not just something we can change based on many many opinions that comes through. This needs to be done as you would engineer a test session with a car."

To me that shows how much they care about the integrity of the game. Some game companies would slap out a cheese fix because the masses were screaming like brats.

[ShodanCat 231]

I know, so many snowflakes out there just get triggered by so called "bad physics."

[Headlong 0]

ShodanCat said:

I know, so many snowflakes out there just get triggered by so called "bad physics."

Especially when this phrase is uttered by people who have demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of vehicle dynamics. 

Im not referring to you, by the way.